Unrealistic Expectations

[Mark Knapp]

To me, there is such a thing as "honest aging", antique dealers talk about it all the time. Generally, outside of this "small fishbowl" (sincerely, no insult intended) knives and swords as well as all collectables with honest aging gain in value more than those kept in pristine condition indefinitely, all other things being equal. I’m not talking about maker problems or owner dings. I'm talking about yellowing of ivory, tarnish, minute shrinkage, proud pins, and small checks. Also, I'm talking in long term, in the family heirloom sense. In most cases it's a huge mistake to try to fix these things from the stand point of value. One man’s tarnish is another man’s patina. It's hard to say where the line is between maker’s issues and honest aging, I have a lifetime warrantee and will always do whatever is asked of me at no charge, no questions asked, but on a knife that has gotten a little aging on it that may not be the proper thing to do.

 

[RogerP]

No Roger, you are missing my point.
From the beginning of this thread I've been addressing Bob's opening question from the collector's point of view (as collectors most often buy the knives or are you going to argue that too?). Point being, by collectors being selective as to the type natural material, the particular knife and sources, understanding the risks of natural handle materials, knowing the "Do's and Don'ts" in caring for it and practicing good old common sense they can greatly reduce or eliminate their risks of problematic natural handle materials.

Specifically to your above comment, if the collector lives in a dry climate perhaps it best if they don't purchase their knives from wet climates, thus mitigating their risks.

No Kevin, your point just doesn't hold water.

Regardless of the point of view or persective, a knife's initial point of sale is not necessarily its final destination, therefore, disparity in environment is on ongoing concern.

No matter whether we are addressing maker or collector, the risks associated with natural handle materials can be mitigated, but not eliminated. Even stabilized stuff will move sometimes.

Roger

 

[RogerP]

This is what I'm getting at, but should it really reduce the value so much, because it may be considered "normal" and these mint pieces may be an exception. There are very few near mint Winchester 73's out there, and the very, very few command the greatest amount.

Best I can come up with is another "it depends". How much of a reduction in value depends on how bad the crack, checkering, etc. If it's quite minor, the reduction may be fairly minimal. I don't have any experience collecting guns, so I can't comment on how it translates to knives, if at all.

I do wonder what the makers think. Are we collectors too darn picky?

I'd be keen to hear that as well.

Roger

 

[Starkman1]

I think you hit the nail on the head Mark. I would personally prefer a period Civil War Sword that may have possibly been used in battle with a few nicks on the blade and original patina etc., but well cared for than a near mint that most likely sat in a warehouse as surplus.
Bob

 

[RogerP]

I think you hit the nail on the head Mark. I would personally prefer a period Civil War Sword that may have possibly been used in battle with a few nicks on the blade and original patina etc., but well cared for than a near mint that most likely sat in a warehouse as surplus.
Bob

I would certainly agree. But I think different considerations apply when we are discussing antique versus contemporary pieces.

Roger

 

[Mark Knapp]

I would certainly agree. But I think different considerations apply when we are discussing antique versus contemporary pieces.

Roger

Of course, all knives were contemporary once. At some point, some change must become acceptable and even preferable over none at all, I suppose it's up to each of us to decide where that point is, I personally don't mind seeing it start sooner than most. As a maker I feel like if nothing happens within the first 2-5 years I have done my job well given the materials I like to use.

 

[Kohai999]

What do folks think about blades. A few spots over time, is that a killer or normal?

Let's move beyond current pieces, by that I mean knives that are 10 years +. I think any knives that start having problems within the first several years may be indicative of stability, craftsmanship etc. But what would be normal wear in the long term? For example, some of the older Loveless knives.

Bob

Spots on blades? One of the reasons that I don't purchase straight carbon blades anymore. Spots is rust or staining....not acceptable on a knife that I wish to collect.

10+ years old? A drop in the bucket....already have knives that are 25 years old, purchased new from the makers....pristine.

The idea of "honest aging" is something akin to sentimentality in collecting...."oh look it's got patina, that's worth something, right?".....uh no, it isn't. The slipjoint crowd likes that stuff, but not usually in custom knives....they are a nutso group anyway, collecting things like elephant toenails....that's just retarded...really, I'm not joking....let's go out of our way to collect the ugliest folding knife pattern ever created.

That aside, do what you want, collect what you want, it is your money and time.....BUT....at some time, down the line, when something needs to be moved, the market tends to look at things through the lens of "perfect condition is desireable" and not "Grandpa's pocketworn knife sure is swell and I want to buy it".

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[irbailey]

Makers can never get it right as far as movement of natural materials go due the climate differences mentioned earlier in the thread. I've seen handles that I've made shrink slightly as they've been kept somewhere a lot warmer than where the handle material was dried (walnut handle kept in a cupboard above an oil fired boiler) and also the reverse probelm when a teak handled knife swelled as it was kept in an outside shed where the customer kept his shooting and fishing gear.

The best thing I think a maker can do is get the shrinkage/swelling problem fixed so it works for the environment. The two knives I mentioned were re-finished and have been ok since.

However, if the knife kept outside is ever sold to someone who keeps it somewhere warm the problem will return.

As for rust spots, that's down to one thing - lack of care. Carbon steel will never give you any problems if properly cared for. I own sporting and WWII era military guns that are in perfect condition due to proper care. I also know someone with a 10 year old Beretta 687 which is looking about 100 years old!

A piece I read in the new Bob Loveless book the other day summed it up quite nicely. When asked why he thought people nowadays preferred stainless to carbon, he replied "Laziness".
Some simple maintenance will prevent rust/staining very easily.

I don't know how the question of patina works on collectable knives, but when I was collecting medals, cleaning any patina would devalue a piece.
Personally I see no reason not to clean up an old knife. Medals are a different ball game as repeated cleaning/polishing will eventually wash out details.

Interesting thread.:thumbup:

Ian

 

[Kevin Jones]

Regardless of the point of view or persective, a knife's initial point of sale is not necessarily its final destination, therefore, disparity in environment is on ongoing concern.
Roger

I will agree with that, especially considering some collectors tendency to depart with their knives almost as soon as receiving them.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Spots on blades? One of the reasons that I don't purchase straight carbon blades anymore. Spots is rust or staining....not acceptable on a knife that I wish to collect.

10+ years old? A drop in the bucket....already have knives that are 25 years old, purchased new from the makers....pristine.

The idea of "honest aging" is something akin to sentimentality in collecting...."oh look it's got patina, that's worth something, right?".....uh no, it isn't. The slipjoint crowd likes that stuff, but not usually in custom knives....they are a nutso group anyway, collecting things like elephant toenails....that's just retarded...really, I'm not joking....let's go out of our way to collect the ugliest folding knife pattern ever created.

That aside, do what you want, collect what you want, it is your money and time.....BUT....at some time, down the line, when something needs to be moved, the market tends to look at things through the lens of "perfect condition is desireable" and not "Grandpa's pocketworn knife sure is swell and I want to buy it".
Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

That's Golden Steven. :thumbup:

In regard to "realistic expectations", YES, when I pay $1,000-$10,000 for a custom/handmade knife I expect A LOT from it both when I get it and 10-15 years latter. I see no reason for a fine custom knife's condition to decline over time if it's properly cared for and not used.

Handle issues, spots on the blades and such are not things I expect or accept as common occurrence.

Comparing antique collectible knives to contemporary custom knives is like comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Starkman1]

That's Golden Steven. :thumbup:

Comparing antique collectible knives to contemporary custom knives is like comparing apples to oranges.

Much agreed, but as Mark pointed out those antiques were most likely contemporaries at one time. What I'm getting at is the long term....I see alot of knives purchased then sold within a year or two.

I don't have too much experience with Loveless knives, Moran's, etc. but are many of these early pieces still mint, compared to their newer work? I'm not sure if they were considered collectible when initially purchased. We really never know whats going to be collectible 15,25 years later.

Bob

 

[Lorien]

this is becoming a very interesting discussion!

I look at knives as timeless objects, which will outlast flesh and blood, regardless of the materials used.
Some materials will degrade much faster than others and those are the materials which require maintenance, upkeep and proper storage- expertise. Perhaps it could be said that an inexperienced collector, (newb) should avoid those types of materials(?).

I'm pretty flexible when it comes to materials, depending on the intent or type of knife, but always seek out more stable materials or rougher finishes for knives that will be used in adverse conditions.

 

[betzner]

Spots on blades? One of the reasons that I don't purchase straight carbon blades anymore. Spots is rust or staining....not acceptable on a knife that I wish to collect.

10+ years old? A drop in the bucket....already have knives that are 25 years old, purchased new from the makers....pristine.

The idea of "honest aging" is something akin to sentimentality in collecting...."oh look it's got patina, that's worth something, right?".....uh no, it isn't. The slipjoint crowd likes that stuff, but not usually in custom knives....they are a nutso group anyway, collecting things like elephant toenails....that's just retarded...really, I'm not joking....let's go out of our way to collect the ugliest folding knife pattern ever created.

That aside, do what you want, collect what you want, it is your money and time.....BUT....at some time, down the line, when something needs to be moved, the market tends to look at things through the lens of "perfect condition is desireable" and not "Grandpa's pocketworn knife sure is swell and I want to buy it".

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

All of the above so very true, in my opinion. Perhaps my favorite image, recently posted here on Blade Forums, was of Don Guild and Walter Hoffman at the AKI (as I recall), with Walter inspecting a blade with a loupe! A classic shot which is to the point. Collector scrutiny means just that.

Bob B

 

[RogerP]

Perhaps it could be said that an inexperienced collector, (newb) should avoid those types of materials(?).

I would say the Newb needs to be informed of the realities of the risks that come with natural handle materials and neither be given an unrealistic image of inevitable doom nor a misleading fantasy of peaches and cream where material movement is portrayed as something exceedingly rare.

They should be informed of the steps they can take to mitigate the risks, including the fact that they should communicate with the maker to ensure that he / she will take appropriate measures in mitigation as well.

They should also be informed that synthetics certainly have their place and can - depending on application and expectation - be a better choice.

Roger

 

[Kevin Jones]

this is becoming a very interesting discussion!

I look at knives as timeless objects, which will outlast flesh and blood, regardless of the materials used.

I do as well Lorien and I hope/believe most knifemakers build their knives with the above in mind.

Here's a quote from Jerry Fisk that I've always liked;

"I want to enjoy making the pieces and putting part of my life into them.
I make pieces not just for the original owner but for those who he passes it down, his ancestors and mine to take pride in. This will show others in a hundred years that I have lived and what I did."
Form David Darom's book "The World of Art Knives"; Jerry Fisk MS, The Man and His Art.

Some materials will degrade much faster than others and those are the materials which require maintenance, upkeep and proper storage- expertise. Perhaps it could be said that an inexperienced collector, (newb) should avoid those types of materials(?).

As I've said, I feel much more is made of or blame placed on natural materials than perhaps should be as we hear all the horror stories but not the success stories. And as you hinted towards, collectors sometimes purchase knives with natural handles without any clue to the do's/dont's or how to attend them yet scream to the high heavens when there's a problem.

I'm pretty flexible when it comes to materials, depending on the intent or type of knife, but always seek out more stable materials or rougher finishes for knives that will be used in adverse conditions.

I agree again. Proper selection of material, knife and design can help alleviate many handle issues. For example some handle design/construction will mask potential material shrinkage others will shout it out like a neon sign. I don't understand why more makers don't contour or smooth the edges of their frames/material on frame handle constructed knives as the sharp edge is the first "tip off" that natural handle material has shrunk or receded.

 

[Starkman1]

this is becoming a very interesting discussion!

I look at knives as timeless objects, which will outlast flesh and blood, regardless of the materials used.

Likewise. I was at a show and I was speaking to another collector and he told me he used his Fisk Sendero. I was a little surprised as I knew it would devalue the knife. But he continued, heck, I use it, clean it when I'm done, and if you take care of it....it will last your lifetime. Obviously he didn't intend on reselling it.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Likewise. I was at a show and I was speaking to another collector and he told me he used his Fisk Sendero. I was a little surprised as I knew it would devalue the knife. But he continued, heck, I use it, clean it when I'm done, and if you take care of it....it will last your lifetime. Obviously he didn't intend on reselling it.

I wouldn't be surprised to find quite a few "basic" Senderos being used, especially for hunting companions.
Jerry has been making that model for about 18 years and it is one of the most recognized and borrowed hunting knife designs out there.
I just nabbed his "30 yrs" $8 Sendero from this past fall's Micro Show.

 

[Kohai999]

Likewise. I was at a show and I was speaking to another collector and he told me he used his Fisk Sendero. I was a little surprised as I knew it would devalue the knife. But he continued, heck, I use it, clean it when I'm done, and if you take care of it....it will last your lifetime. Obviously he didn't intend on reselling it.

I carry a brown lip pearl Don Hanson folder in an elephant skin Paul Long clip slip sheath from time to time...if I use it right, and need to sell it, should only require a fluff and buff from Don to realize very close to the original price paid.

If a collector chooses to use some or all of their collection, have them reworked by the maker and disclose such, it should not affect the value of the knives catastrophically....but we covered that on a different thread and it isn't entirely germane to THIS thread.

Lorien, to simply restate something Roger wrote, the newbie should not be afraid of ANY handle material, but SHOULD get fully educated before making a purchase.

SOME makers and collectors believe that ivory is a fairly durable handle material, as an example, but MOST of the collectors that I know don't buy that. Doesn't stop MANY of them from enjoying the material though. Cracks often happen with ivory, only you can know if that bothers you.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Lorien]

the newbie should not be afraid of ANY handle material, but SHOULD get fully educated before making a purchase.

once fully educated, no longer a newb?

 

[Hmathews]

As a maker don't know how much of a problem it really is. We have had only two knives returned with this problem in over 8 years of making knives.

One of the cases we had with handle shrinkage came from a change in a natural environment (Georgia to Arizona) and the other was cause by the location chosen for the storage of the knife (0n top of a gas heater). While these things do happen and can be avoided to some extent, some materials are more prone to move than others and we try to avoid using them. We would not want to send knife with a sheep horn handle to Arizona and we try to avoid woods like cocobolo that are difficult to stabilize.

It is our policy to repair any problems that the customer has with one of our knives at no cost to the customer. We try to give the customer the benefit of the doubt and want him happy with our work, so we usually over look any obvious abuse the knife has received. We have drawn the line at cleaning off dried fish slime and scales or deer blood and charged a cleaning fee though.

I have noticed the problem with several of the knives in my collection and don't really know how much time has to do with it. The knives have always been in an air conditioned environment and they are not ones that I have used. I like stag handles and the stag has moved about the same amount on knives that vary in age from 5 to 35 years old. It doesn't seem to bother me much as a collector since I don't plan on having them repaired. Some of the makers are dead anyway and I don't work on other maker's knives.

If the problem was serious I would think that any maker would be glad to have the chance to repair the knife. No matter what the knife goes through it will always be a statement of his ability and no maker I know wants a bad knife out there.