Unspeakable evil after Tsunami.

I know the song you're talking about, Rusty. I actually really like that one. (And Phil Oches, in general, but his other songs I like for other reasons.) Allow me to explain this one.

What Phil's talking about, I believe, is that one is always ultimately responsible for one's actions. There are no two ways about this, and that includes military personnel. I can have the best intentions, or the most strongly worded orders, in the world, but what I do, I do. Me. Even if I don't have to answer for them, I still have to live with them.

He was griping about the draft, of course. "Without them, Caesar would've stood alone..." lah-de-dah, so on and so forth. His argument, as I understand it, was that if the soldiers on both sides would say, "Hey, enough of this, we don't want to be here doing this and neither do they, let's call it a day and go home," and no more war. Completely unrealistic, of course, but idealists - myself included - often are. :) Such things are not completely unbelievable, though - witness the first Christmas spent in the trenches during WWI.

My job is teaching people how to shoot and handle their weapons, and therefore, how to kill other people. It weighs on me sometimes. I rationalize it. "I'm teaching them how to save their lives." "I'm teaching them how to protect their ship/post/base." "I'm just giving them training - how they use it is up to them, not me." "It's my job. It's my duty. If I didn't do it, they'd find someone else who would."

All of this is horsepucky. I'm teaching eighteen-year-olds how to kill other people. I'm using a paper target, strong words, and a loud voice to desensitize them. Not only that, I take great satisfaction in doing so. I want them to be the most efficient killers they can be after the short time they've spent with me. I - and my coworkers - often josh one another about how good our shooters will be when we're done with them. It's a point of pride with us.

I tell myself that they'll be using those skills for all the right reasons if they ever have to do so, but really, I have no assurance of this besides my own faith in my own cause.

Sometimes we get a shooter who's about to deploy "over there." We make sure to give him/her a bit of additional, off-the-books instruction - how to retain a weapon when grabbed, how to deliver a proper buttstroke/pistol whip, how to rig up field expedient night sights for an M16, the finer points of weapons maintenance in a hostile environment...the kinds of things not mentioned in most books and not applicable to most personnel, but definitely nice to know. We can't teach them everything they'll need to know, of course - we don't know everything they need to know - but they'll pick up the rest when they get over there and at least we gave them what head start we could. We tell ourselves that it's for their protection, but really, we're giving them more tools to kill.

What I'm really getting at, Rusty, is that for each of these shooters that kills someone, I'm partially responsible. I'm cool with that. But, I must always keep it in mind. When the day comes where I'm no longer cool with it, I'll need to find a different line of work. This particular song of Phil's never fails to put it in perspective for me. That's why I like it.

I like "Here's to the State of Mississippi" because a buddy of mine is from there and it annoys the heck out of him whenever he hears it. :D

I'm not exactly disagreeing with you, Rusty - I'm just showing a different angle. I think we're actually in agreement...except on the subject of that song. ;)
 
Satori: we are in agreement - no one is exempted from the consequences of their actions. I can accept your definition and in fact applaud it.

I just feel that most of the folks from the 60's and 70's weren't as understanding of the moral judgements as you have laid them out. Peace, Make love not war, Kill a commie for Christ, Hell no, we won't go! ( that one I can agree with - thank God I was 4F ) etc.

That's one reason I do a labor of love for this forum. Those here bring a lifetime of sophistication learned the hard way. !'ll be 55 later this year. I wish I'd had the chance to listen to such people when I was 20. I probably did have such an opportunity, and just blew it off. At least I'm listening now. About time, huh?
 
And along the same lines, there are times (even during the mere two months that I've been here) where I get a bit too full of myself. Then someone comes along - you, Yvsa, Ben, UB, others - as much as I think I know, I really don't know that much at all. I just got a peek at the syllabus.

My thanks. :)
 
My girlfriend's parents are from Thailand. They're really great people.

I think that it's important to realize that the child sex stuff over there is not a cultural norm. Most Thais aren't pedofiles.

That said, this sick industry does thrive in Thailand. I've heard it's driven by foreigners, some Thais, and a governmental inability (or unwillingness) to crack down. The Thai government condemns it, but it persists. Draw your own conclusions, I guess.

Point is, cultural generalizations are bad and inaccurate and I hope people don't start generally condemning SE Asians. I don't think this disgusting industry is indicative of Thai morality.

Nam
 
Satori,

I largely have faith in our armed forces. In the people, I mean. I think that they really want to do the right thing.

And I know that these terrorist bastids want to do evil.

I'm glad that you're teaching them to defend the lives of the innocent and themselves. I'm also glad that thousands of US Marines are currently en route to the Tsunami-stricken area. A mission of peace, bringing supplies and order to such a stricken region. That's what my America's all about, IMO.

Also, I read an article a while ago about a surprising effect of the tsunami. In one of the stricken countries, the situation forced rebels and government officials to work side by side for the good of their countrymen. It forced a peace and made them look at each other as people, united in a good cause. Funny how such unthinkable adversity can make people forget their differences.

Nam
 
Satori - had to put this down now rather than waiting for later.

If you look up the word humility you get sent to the word humbly which comes from the latin humilis and thus to humus which is ground, or precisely the decomposed organic component of soil. The organic and non-organic combine to produce fertile soil. To be fertile soil is to be ready to nurture seeds and allow them to grow.

When you become humble, you become receptive to learning. Thus humility ultimately begets teachability.

This post is not so much for you but to remind me of what I learn here, before I forget to explain, and before I forget this truth until the next time.

Again.
 
Satori - You'll remember that I held the same job as you for 12 years but for the Air Force. I didn't teach my students how to kill. I taught them how to hit their targets and how to stay alive and how to save others lives. That was *my* positive karma spin on my job. If you ever have doubt, try to remember to see it from that perspective.

munk - I understood what you were saying. Folks, if you ever have a doubt about munk...re-read what he has written, then come back and read it again later. As I have told him privately before, most times I simply read something someone has written and respond. *His* writing I always take my time with to chew and savor. He is a writer...there is a depth that is not always right there in front of you.
 
Nam, I did not mean to imply that all Thais are behind this sex industry. I can see now from my original post that this could be infered. Your description of the situation is better. My cousin spent four years in Thailand in the Peace Corps. He saw some of this stuff first hand, but he also said it was not the norm. It is unfortunate that there is either a real inability to stop it or there is some coruption at high levels that allow it to continue. To clarify, according to what my cousin saw, Thailand has an enormous gap in it's economic and developed/undeveloped areas. Many families just can't make it. They end up having to sell one or more of their children just to survive and save others. There is a segment of the society that is willing to buy them and employ them in this way. This is a profitable buisness, it brings money in. Lots of wealthy foreigners come and play there. The government looks the other way. Their economy is tied to this in a big way. It is not as simple as it seems.
 
On the subject of killing...The Marines teach one how to kill the enemy. Killing the enemy is *the* main purpose of Marine training and therefore the main objective of the DI's. Hitting a paper target is just practice. But I suspect it is the same in the other branches of service also.

A Marine Brother of mine had "Kill or Get Killed" tatooed on his right arm. He did it so that if he ever forgot what the big picture was about, it would remind him.
 
Monk,

I didn't suggest you were a pedophile at all. Since the contexts is about sexual exploitation I should have used another word other then "fantasy". Fantasy suggests a pleasurable thought. I didn't want to suggest that I really wanted to know if you witnessed this first hand or is this fiction?

I believe your parable is fiction so why was the pedophile American? Am I missing some underlying suggestion that America exploits young countries or are you speaking of exploitation of children? I'm confused.

Joe
 
guys we're talking about the poorest part of planet Earth.
People there do pretty much anything to survive.
Bangkok, Bangladesh, Phuket, you name it, the sex industry is a major cash provider in those areas.
Until we provide them all with with IT jobs that used to be filled by Americans, they will have to do something to make money.
Im not saying its good, far from it, but Im saying its a big problem, not just an annoyance. Major changes will be required.
It's like taking one wheel off of a car. You're going to have to do some other work too or it wont run right...
 
The only parable I can remember from the Jewish Mystics:

A young man goes to the Rabbi, seeking advice.
"Master, I cannot speak the truth, everytime I speak a lie comes out-
OH, see- I've done it again."

And with that the young student falls to the ground, sobbing.

"It is written," says the Rabbi, "the truth will come from the ground."





munk
 
I've said this many more times than once, but what the hell would we do without Rusty around here gathering up all the Heart?




munk
 
Rusty said:
If you look up the word humility you get sent to the word humbly which comes from the latin humilis and thus to humus which is ground, or precisely the decomposed organic component of soil. The organic and non-organic combine to produce fertile soil. To be fertile soil is to be ready to nurture seeds and allow them to grow.

When you become humble, you become receptive to learning. Thus humility ultimately begets teachability.
Click to expand...

I learned something new today. That really was a good one, Rusty. My humble thanks.

Ad Astra
 
Satori,
I don't know about killing- just what I've read and learned from books and friends.

But I have to agree with Semper- you are training them to stay alive, and in the big picture, you are training young people to advance the policies of the United States, which overall, keeps alive and makes better living conditions for more people across the World than any other nation.

I would be proud to train people to shoot. (though I doubt there is much military interest in offhand shooting at beer cans at 60 yards with big bore revolvers...)

I once had a friend, a military sniper in WWll, who put down firearms forever after the Service, because he did not like what he'd done. He would not hunt.

But you know what, ( don't you?) He told me he'd do it all over again in a heartbeat because he loved his Country.



munk
 
believe your parable is fiction so why was the pedophile American? Am I missing some underlying suggestion that America exploits young countries or are you speaking of exploitation of children? I'm confused.

Joe>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


I am distressed believing you could not easily substitute a German Businessman, a Korean Banker, or any of the international community in place of the Ugly American. It was an example only, and seemed best to use my Nation instead of another's in today's contentious world.



munk
 
munk said:
...you are training young people to advance the policies of the United States, which overall, keeps alive and makes better living conditions for more people across the World than any other nation...
Click to expand...
I think you would find millions of people in Asia, the Mid East, Eastern Europe, and Central and South America who would disagree with your assumption about the effects U.S. policies, but not necessarily about the military's role in promoting them.
 
I think you would find millions of people in Asia, the Mid East, Eastern Europe, and Central and South America who would disagree with your assumption about the effects U.S. policies, but not necessarily about the military's role in promoting them>>>>>>>>>>> Ben

1. The millions you speak of would make no distinction between policy and the soldiers, and would be correct.

2. As with any nation, or person, when bad judgement occurs the Foot Soldier still has to fight. During those times, it is difficult for him to reconcile the violence. But he is a soldier, and must take the long view, the Big Picture, and knows in his heart the US is a force for good and he is a part of that.

3. That millions may or may not disagree with our policies, does not change the fact of the enormous good the US has brought to the world. Our disease erradication alone buys our ticket, and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

(The current cultural and intellectual assault upon the US follows the same mistake Men have always made. In an effort to be objective and critical, they go too far, and 'throw the baby out with the bathwater'. It is one thing to blindly shout USA USA does no wrong, but the other conclusion, the US a force for Capitalistic corruption, is both wrong and dishonest. That "millions' disagree is just plain too bad.)


4. Why you and others want this thread about Tidal Wave horrors to include US bashing is something you should think about.


munk
 
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