Upcoming... Review of Beknive's Fighting Bowie VS OHB

S

sing

Joined
Jan 31, 1999
Messages
1,613
Here's a link to a pic of my soon to arrive Bruce Evan's Fighting Bowie:

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum51/HTML/000794.html

A beauty, ain't it?
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I will be doing a review of this blade against the Ontario Hell's Belle in a month or so.

Why Bruce Evan's knife against the OHB? Well, it started off with my developing interest in James A. Keating's Western Blade (bowie) fighting methods. I had ordered JAK's ABC (bowie) tapes to review. They piqued my interest enough for me to order an OHB to play with. Not used to big fighting blades, the OHB felt big and awkward. But after some practice, including attending JAK's Riddle of Steel where the some of the ABC curriculum were reviewed, the OHB felt more and more comfortable. Nevertheless, as a production knife, the OHB was probably made for the "average" person in mind. I am smaller than the average person and still find the OHB handle and weight slightly bigger and heavier than I would want. Thus, the thought of a custom fighting bowie.

I thought of getting a custom Bagwell Hell's Belle but frankly the cost and the wait were/are prohibitive in my mind. Several months ago, I noticed a post by Bruce Evans in these forums. I visited his site and saw some nice looking blades, including bowies, with reasonable prices (for me). However, none of his bowies really matched the spec's I had in mind nor matched the tactical functions of the OHB. I contacted Bruce and talked about what I had in mind. The Evan's blade length is about the same as the OHB at 10" but it is 3/16" thick vs OHB's 1/4". The handle is slightly shorter and more contoured than the OHB's 6" coffin style handle. The blade catching guard has less depth than the OHB and may not function the same. Frankly with the guard, I gave in to aesthetics and wanted the quillion style that Bruce rendered so beautifully. Overall, I am very pleased by the picture of the fighting bowie that Bruce came out with. He put a lot of effort into it. The outcome is a bowie that has a beautiful "classical" look to it. Bruce was a pleasure to work with and very conscientious in keeping me informed of where he was in the process (though, truthfully, I don't personally require alot of updates since I appreciate a knifemaker's time updating me is time away from the shop.)

Basically, my review will focus on handling, thrusting, slashing and backcutting, utilizing some of JAK's methods. I am going to stay away from the "leg of lamb" test as Mario will be getting one of Bruce's warped blades to do a hard testing on...
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I am looking forward to doing this review. Bruce, thank you for your effort on my blade.
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sing

AKTI #A000356
 
Awsome Knife! Congrates
If you can help out,I did a couple of searches but cant locate his web site.
Alex
 
Sing, that is one terrific looking knife, especially given the remarkable knifemaking saga that goes with it. The workmanship is superb. I have no doubt yours will become the first of many more of those that Bruce will be making.

------------------
Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
Sing,

Wow! What a bowie Bruce made for you. It is absolutely stunning. A classic beauty. I can't wait to see it in person
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.

I'm really looking forward to your review. I think that a head to head comparison with the Ontario Hell's Belle is an excellent idea. Plus, it will be very interesting to see if you and I both come to similar conclusions regarding both bowies. I believe that my evaluation of your bowie's slightly warped brother will dovetail beautifully with the tests you intend to perform.

Congratulations, My Friend
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!

Mario

------------------
Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.




[This message has been edited by Gaucho (edited 06-10-2000).]
 
Absolutely beautiful knife. I'm looking forward to the comparison. I like the Ontario HBs, but they weren't quite as nimble in my hand as I thought they'd be.


Joe
 
Well the blade got delivered to my office yesterday. Could hardly work with that thing sitting next to me, tempting me...

Initial impressions: Outstanding fit and finish. The grinds are perfect. The primary bevel, right at he edge, is barely noticable. Most of the edge is created by the grind coming down from the spine to edge, almost making the edge a convex one. Razor sharp. Balance is right at the quillion whereas the balance for the OHB is right about the Spanish notch. OAL is 16" compare to the about 17" for the OHB. The Evan's blade is full tang but feel slightly lighter than OHB This is due to the 3/16" stock vs 1/4". The balance is definitely affected and can be altered by the length of the top swedge which is sharp but not cutting sharp. The blade feels a tad bit faster because of where balance is. (Whether one prefers a "neutral" balance vs slightly forward balance is matter of personal taste, of course.) My OHB has a swedge that is on the front third of the blade and cutting sharp beginning at .5" from the tip. I am going to sharpen the Evan's knife with to a cutting edge also .5" from the tip for better backcutting, though it can backcut as is. The middle handle swell may be a tad too big for me but I am going to play and test this blade much more before I decide whether to send it back for modification. I did notice that swell and the contours of the handle front and back of it allows me a sure feeling whether I choke up on the handle or slide back towards the pommel. Finally, the black leather sheath is very well done and work of art in itself. It has a piece that goes around the top and forms into a belt loop and sports leather lacing. It's akin to the heavy duty "frog" that one finds on some of the HI khukuris.

I like this blade a lot already. If it stands up to the cutting tests, it will be a heck of a blade from. Bruce is relatively unknown, he may not stay that way for long...

That's it for now. I have to borrow a digital camera, since my wife's camera died, from someone before going on to the tests. Will keep you posted... But, I might just put my order in for another one before posting... to stay ahead of the rush!
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sing

AKTI #A000356

[This message has been edited by sing (edited 06-15-2000).]
 
Okay, I was finally able to do the testing of the Bowies during my vacation.
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Dimensions:

Evans’ Fighting Bowie (EFB):
- 15 & 7/8” OAL
- 3/16” wide
- 1.5” deep
- approximately 1.5 lbs. (using a rough scale)

Ontario Hell’s Belle (OHB):
- 16 & 7/8” OAL
- ¼” wide
- 1.25” deep
- Approximately 1.75 lbs.

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=135433&a=7032224&p=23745385
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=135433&a=7032224&p=23745400
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=135433&a=7032224&p=23745424

Thrusting/Penetration:

The target was made of three magazines taped together on a wooden pine block. A white sheet with “targets” penciled on was taped on top so I could get a sense of how accurate the Bowies were coming on “point”. I stood in an "on guard” position with the point of the blade about 12” inches away from the target. To thrust, I need only to extend my arm and torque my hips. I deliberately took this distance to eliminate the variations that might occur if I was required to step in with the thrust. I initially took five thrusts with the OHB and then the same with the EFB. I found that I was much more accurate with the EFB than with the OHB. Thinking that this may be due to the difference in the target heights, I untaped the target, inverted it and thrust five more times with each Bowie. Again, I found I was more accurate with the EFB.

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=135433&a=7032224&p=23745541

Still curious about the discrepancy in accuracy, I walked over to a nearby sapling of 1.5” diameter and did more thrusting. I was able to hit the sapling 9 out of 10 tries with the EFB while hitting 7 out of 10 with the OHB

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=135433&a=7032224&p=23745571
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=135433&a=7032224&p=23745704

I then took apart the target to see how deep the blades penetrated. The deepest penetration for the EFB was 100 sheets while OHB was at 96 sheets. At 96 sheets, EFB had three penetrations vs. the OHB’s one.

Forward Slash (R to L)/Horizontal Backcut (L to R)

The target was made of 40 sheets of newsprint and denim stapled onto a plywood backing. The target was hung from a tree and anchored with a rope tied to a cinder block. I wanted to eliminate variations that may occur from movement caused by the wind. I stood at a distance where just tip could just touch the target. In twisting the hips with the forward slashing and the backcutting, I was able to achieve more reach and significant contact with the target. I did five forward slashes on top and four backcuts at the bottom of the target with each blade (I did four backcuts because after taking the OHB target down, I realized I only did four instead of five cuts. Rather than putting the target back up, I chose to do only four backcuts with the EFB.)

With the OHB, I was able to slice through the denim and newsprint, hitting the plywood, with all five slashes. On the backcuts, the OHB sliced through on all four tries. The last attempt was very spectacular, slicing across the denim and newsprint to the edge but just dinging the plywood. The EFB cut through to the plywood on all slashes and backcuts.

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=135433&a=7032224&p=23746004
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=135433&a=7032224&p=23746056

The interesting part of this test was examining the damage to the plywood. The EFB achieved longer and cleaner slashes into the plywood whereas the OHB slashes were shorter but wider. The slash lengths for the EFB were (in inches): 2 & 1/2, 1 & 1/2, 1 & 3/8, 1 & 1/8, and 2. For the OHB, the lengths were ¾, 1, 1, 1, ¾, 3/4. On the backcuts, the measurements for the EFB were ¾, 1, 1 & 1/8, 7/8. All the EFB backcuts had a clean crescent shape to them. For the OHB, the measurements were 1”, 7/8, 1 dent. (One backcut overlapped with another and splintered the wood, indicating an off edged cut and bad technique.) The OHB backcuts again were wider and less clean in appearance (but would be very damaging to flesh!)

Chopping

Just to see how each blade chops, I picked two saplings with 2” diameters to cut down. The EFB took 31 chops whereas the OHB took only 25 chops. The EFB chopped the wood in slivers, like sliced pepperoni, while the OHB took more chunks out.

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=135433&a=7032224&p=23745786
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=135433&a=7032224&p=23745848

Rope Cutting

The last test was to cut .5 inch diameter nylon rope on top of a pine wood block. I first touched up both blades on the white ceramic stones of the Spyderco 204 sharpener. I cut the nylon rope by drawing the blade from ricasso towards the tip. The blade was lifted as soon as the rope was cleanly cut. The EFB was able to get 15 clean cuts while the OHB had 13. I was surprised at how difficult it was to cut the nylon rope!

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=135433&a=7032224&p=23746079

Grip Retention

Both Bowies were easy to hang onto in the slashing and chopping tasks because of the swell towards the pommel. In the thrusting, however, I found my index finger slamming into the guard and bruising with the OHB. This is due to the progressive thinner taper of the OHB handle towards the guard. I did not experience the same level of slamming into the guard with the EFB because of the palm swell in the middle of the handle. (This was actually one of the reasons why I wanted to get a custom Bowie after playing with the OHB for awhile.)

Handling

The lighter and more neutrally balance EFB felt quicker to me in simple maneuvers as well as in directional changes, e.g. a right to left diagonal slash followed by a left to right backcut. However, in certain more complex flowing maneuvers, e.g. a right to left diagonal slash flowing into a right to left horizontal backcut, the weight forwardness of the OHB helped in maintaining the momentum and continuity of flow. The EFB felt more “jerky” in these flowing types of maneuver.

Conclusion (Something I'm almost afraid to offer given the recent thread on "Hype."
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The two fighting Bowies are clearly different in dimensions and have different handling and cutting abilities. Preference is really a subjective and personal matter for the user. But, God forbid... either blade will get the intended “job” done if need be. It all comes back down to the skills of the person behind the “point”.

One thing that did stand out was that the EFB was able to slash cleaner and penetrate better. Despite being thinner than the OHB, the 5160 steel hand forged blade by Bruce was able to withstand whatever rigors I subjected it to without any damage. Furthermore, Bruce clearly achieved the handling and aesthetic objectives I initially had in mind when I asked him to make the EFB for me.

From my purely subjective point of view, I am very happy with this blade!
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sing

AKTI #A000356

[This message has been edited by sing (edited 07-04-2000).]



[This message has been edited by sing (edited 07-04-2000).]
 
Sing :

The EFB took 31 chops whereas the OHB took only 25 chops.
Click to expand...

How were you chopping - technique?

I was surprised at how difficult it was to cut the nylon rope!
Click to expand...

How thick are the edges behind the bevel and what angles are they ground at?

the EFB was able to slash cleaner and penetrate better, despite being thinner than the OHB.
Click to expand...

I don't understand the "despite", wouldn't that be the expected behavior?

The pictures are an excellent addition to a well written review. They really make understanding the work easier.

-Cliff
 
Cliff,

Chopping: I cut the sapling approximately a foot above the ground. I had to get on one knee and hunched over a bit. I chopped with a combination of diagonal and horizontal strikes. I probably should have alternate between from one to the other but I did not employ any particular order.

Grind Angle: I knew that would be asked but I have nothing to measure the angles with. I can tell you that OHB has to have a steeper angle giving that it has a 1/4" stock and is 1.25" deep. The EFB is 3/16" stock and is 1.5" deep. That means the grind angle can be more gradual.

The "despite": What I meant to say was "Despite being thinner than the OHB, the 5160 steel hand forged by Bruce was able to withstand the whatever rigors I subjected it to without any damage."

Yes, the thinner blade would mean better slashing and penetration. My fear was that tip may break with the slashing and backcutting since it would engage the plywood backing. The original blade that Bruce forged for my bowie warped. He nevertheless ground it down into a "test" blade for Mario. The tip was ground thinner and, in fact, broke when Mario hit the wooden core of his cutting dummy. Bruce evidently got it right for the Bowie I received. Especially in the backcut, the tip engages first into the target, digging in, followed by the ripping/cutting action of the top swedge. This action generates alot of pressure on the tip, probably more so than in straight thrusting. (I going to edit my statement in the post.)

The other thing I neglected to say/speculate is that the accuracy I was able to achieve with the EFB probably has to do with the better fit of the handle for me. I felt more contol with the mid-handle swell. Plus, as stated in my first post, I had modified the handle radius a bit with a Dremel to further customize it to my grip. The OHB is factory standard and a bit big for me.

sing

AKTI #A000356

[This message has been edited by sing (edited 07-04-2000).]
 
Sing :

The other thing I neglected to say/speculate is that the accuracy I was able to achieve with the EFB probably has to do with the better fit of the handle for me.
Click to expand...

I have noticed this a lot. It makes blade geometry comparisions more involved. Jerry Hossom had a number of excellent posts concernging handle ergonomics and security issues awhile back.

Thanks for the additional info.

-Cliff
 
Sing,Thanks for doing this testing.I am well pleased with its performance against the OHB.I feel that the chopping would have been better with more weight forward on the blade.The pictures are very nice.Bruce

------------------
Bruce Evans Handcrafted Knives
The soul of the Knife begins in the Fire!!!!!
Member of,AKTI#A000223 and The American Bladesmith Society
 
Hi Bruce,

Again, the EFB performed admirably for me in the tasks I have intended it for. Thank you
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Chopping is one task for a blade but it may not be the primary one depending on the user.

And, again, the handling characteristics are really an individual perference thing. That is the beauty of a well made custom blade -- that it be made to the spec's and needs of the owner. You may find a customer who is more interested in a more weight forward balance but want a the same small handle, or s/he may want another set of attributes. The goal is make a knife fit that person's needs and then some. The "then some" is that blade performs dependably in the intended tasks without failure. This last part is magic of your forge.
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As I said to you, I have another blade in mind... something a bit longer, slightly more weight forward, a tad bit of a drop on the handle and tip, with a little bit of a recurve... How about the EDS -- Evans' Dragon Slayer...
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sing

AKTI #A000356

 
Sing,

Excellent review
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. You made clever use of what you had available up in Maine to design some great tests of the two bowies performance.+

The test bowie that I received from Bruce was made from a rejected blade which had warped several times in the heat treatment process. Bruce had to grind it very thin to remove as much of the warp as possible. He then slapped on a basic coffin style handle and straight brass guard for me, and sent it on for testing. Despite all this, the bowie was still extremely well balanced and wicked sharp.

Due to the amount of stock removal that Bruce was forced to do, the test bowie only weighed 13 oz. despite its 16 1/2 in. OAL, as opposed to Sing's, which tipped the scales at 1 1/2 lbs. The test bowie, therefore, was naturally extremely fast in the hand- the fastest of any blade that size that I've ever tested. It flowed and changed directions extremely well. However, because its balance point was just ahead of the guard- maybe 1/4"- it did not have quite the momentum of equal length blades whose balance points were further forward. Therefore, I would also like to see Bruce move the balance point forward on future bowies.

Like Sing's bowie, the test blade cut and thrust beautifully into soft targets like rolls of paper, cardboard, the duct tape and foam of my training dummy, and the flesh and fascia of the leg of lamb. Backcuts were also excellent. As Sing stated, the test bowie's tip snapped off during thrusting into the training dummy, and the primary edge chipped in two places against the lamb's femur, but I believe that this was due to the extreme thinness of this particular blade, rather than any inherent problem with Bruce's heat treatment. This is evidenced by the fact the the test bowie passed the De Cuerda test with flying colors, and Sing's results confirm it. Just to be sure, however, Bruce is going to make another test blade with his regular grind and we will see- I will post my results when they are ready.

Overall, I feel that the Evans test bowie's blade profile, feel and maneuverability, and cutting ability are top notch.

Mario

------------------
Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.




[This message has been edited by Gaucho (edited 07-05-2000).]
 
Hey, ALex,

I think you'll find the wait worthwhile. What specs did you ask for with your bowie?

Also, I checked out your site. The deranged puppet cracked me up as much your "neck knife." So, you'll have to tell what you think of the Evans boot knife.
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Mario, doing the test in Maine was certainly easier. Lots of stuff to cut and chop, a bit of time, no hostile onlookers, and the scenery made good backdrop for the photos...
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Almost hit a moose which jumped in front of my truck. If I had hit it and survived, the moose would be a heck of a "test dummy" for the blades. Up there, they figure if you destroyed a car hitting a deer or moose, you're at least entitled to what's left of the animal. Take care, will catch up with you at some point.
smile.gif


sing

AKTI #A000356


[This message has been edited by sing (edited 07-05-2000).]
 
Yea Sing Im on vacation this week so the puppet thing is what happens when you have a neat toy, a digital camara and waayyy to much time. It was fun though.

I have been carrying Bruce's boot since I got it. I tucks away nicely against the body cliped to the inside on my left crossdraw. It seems lighter than my leatherman tool but I wont know for sure until I get back to work where I have a scale. It is about half inch thick at the widest part of the handle and just sits in your hand in any grip. The palm swell and larger pummel end really stick it in your hand no matter how hard you are swinging it about. The handle seems long enough though to pull back to the end for more eficient chopping. Grip changes are solid and fluid. It really does move about well and bruce did a little sculpting of the sides that can be seen in the spine shot. It is easily winning my most loved knife spot and is definatly the come along everyday knife. Im off canoeing tomorrow and Im taking it along. As of yet I have only used it for preparing some meat for dinner and cutting watermellon. Noble tasks indeed. I wanted something fairly neutral for a wide variety of tasks and that is what I got. I will have a more thorough review and specs when I come back from my trip.

For the large bowie I think Im going with a 5 inch handle 10 and change blade. It may throw the balance forward a little with the shortish handle but I love to be able to cup the end in my palm on strong stabs.


------------------
ALex

http://home.att.net./~a.boriqua
 
sing --

Great review! What's the relative cost of the two bowies? Are we talking $150 versus $300 here,or more like $150 versus $600? Thanks!

JOe
 
Joe,

Email Bruce. I think you'll be pleased with the price ratio with his hand forged blade. Very close to the former.

beknives@avsia.com

Alex, look forward to more. Yeah, I had a good time playing with my blade on vacation last week. The bad part is that vacation is over...
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sing

AKTI #A000356

[This message has been edited by sing (edited 07-06-2000).]
 
Joe,For a Bowie like Sing's my base price begins at $500.00.The price goes up according to handle material(Black Walnut on the base price)and any major modifications wanted such as longer blade bigger handle or guard....Many Thanks to Sing,Mario,and Alex for doing the reviews and testing I really apreciate it.I hope this lets other people know that I do strive to make the best quality Knife that I am able to and keep striving to make the next knife better....Again thanks,Bruce
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------------------
Bruce Evans Handcrafted Knives
The soul of the Knife begins in the Fire!!!!!
Member of,AKTI#A000223 and The American Bladesmith Society

[This message has been edited by beknives (edited 07-24-2000).]

[This message has been edited by beknives (edited 08-28-2000).]
 
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