Update on 9" Talonite review and more advice please!

[The General]

Hi all!

Its me again!

I am hoping to get my blade soon and begin testing. I am sure you all know I mean my custom 9" Talonite blade. Well I know what I will be doing with it and with other blades to test them. I am looking for opinions on tests you would like to see done. The top ten suggestions I will subject the knives to and thank the person on the forum for the great idea. Please no pipe bending or cutting battleships in half!

I am looking for realistic tests of camp and trail use.

I have also asked some companies if they would let me use a loaner knife to test alongside the Talonite blade. I am unsure whether I ought to name, names on who I have asked. Maybe it is unfair to expect a company to 'loan' a knife to a nobody like me. Let me know your thoughts on this. I have contacted at least ten as to make this a fair and honest test. I do not want to be accused of being biased because I am getting a free knife. My Talonite knife that is!

Thanks all

W.A.
ALL LOOK AT THE DATE I SENT THIS. CAN YOU SEE MY POINT NOW? I WILL NOT BE LEAVING THIS GROUP. TO MANY PEOPLE HAVE E-MAILED ME ASKING ME TO STAY. I FORGIVE THOSE WHO OUGHT TO KNOW BETTER.
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"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tenneson
Ranger motto



[This message has been edited by The General (edited 11-18-2000).]

 

[Rob Simonich]

Hi General, I should have been paying more attention, but its hunting season here and I am not home much....I yhadnt realized the Talonite knife you are having made is a big ol chopper. I have tried the material in a big knife and the results were not as I had hoped, the material takes a bend easier than a good steel and I have not reccomended Talonite for big choppers. Smaller utility knives, folders, hunting knives etc you bet. I had one chopper come back with a serrated blade, and not on purpose! Talonite is just not the material to make a big chopper out of due to this reason. If it is ground so you have a good cutting edge the edge wont take hard impacts well. The various Busse's, Beckers, customs in steel are much better suited for this purpose.

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www.simonichknives.com

 

[The General]

Project canceled

W.A.

 

[Kit Carson]

Hmmm, I wonder why?

 

[The General]

Ok Kit as you asked, I will answer.

1. Because I will not work/deal with a man who will say unsubstantiated things about me. I may forgive him, but not work with him as things stand. I cancelled the project. I lost out on a free Talonite knife by MY choice. Tom never cancelled the project or went back on his offer to let me have a free Talonite knife. The decision was mine and mine alone to make. I did this for the reason above and because I am showing you I value far more than a free knife, I always have. If you cannot see that, then that’s your lookout. I know at least I have done the only thing possible to maintain some dignity in the face of terrible and untrue insults. I should have ignored the untruths and unfairness going round, I did not. Honour demands I do my best to show you all what I am really like. Not the image that some have of me.

2. The respect and friendship of people like Nemo, and others mean far more to me than any free knife, ever, period.

3. If just one of you can accuse me of lying or ‘bludgeoning’ knife companies to get a free knife to keep, then fire straight at me. My dealings have been above board and honest at all times. For the record (again) I never ever asked to keep any knife sent. I in fact made it clear I would not keep any knife. The very worst a knife company would get is a bad review. Considering the knives I was asking to review I doubt that would have been the case. Oh yes, all this makes me a person trying to get a free knife. This FICTION is what you all SEEM to THINK I had said “ Dear knife company, I am getting a free knife from Tom. I think you should do the same as he. After all if he has such confidence in his product to do this you are obviously selling a rubbish product if you do not do the same. I demand a free knife right now yes right now or else. A failure to do this will result in me ripping the Pi$$ out of you publicly. I will review the knife as an excuse to get a free knife.” What a load of rubbish. Well that is what some of you think. And before some dimwit says ‘you said, it not me’ you have ‘implied’ that this is the case, I am not sure if ‘implied’ is a fair word to use, perhaps ‘said’ is a fair word?

4. The very worst any of you can say about me, is that my ‘boast’ (which I fully accept was in hindsight, arrogant, but unintended) was my only real fault in this. The accusations that I was trying to get another/several free knives/knife is totally untrue and anyone that thinks this either cannot comprehend what is down in writing, or has an agenda and does not want to see the truth. When the truth in black and white is there to see and it is still not enough to convince those who can read it, then I can do nothing more.

5. The whole argument, which has been totally one, sided until the last couple of days, sickens me. It seems more want to start a fight than listen and discus the issues.

6. For the record, Kit, I admire your work; I do not have to admire you. At no point did this concern you or your products. I did not do or say anything about you. I am surprised that an individual with a supposedly good reputation would join in such an unfair and dishonest campaign and blatantly personal attacks. Am I a better person than you? You need to ask yourself that question. We all make mistakes, ‘to err is human’ I admit I made mistakes, blame it on youth, stupidity and excitement. I have always been overly quick to react and need to slow down. As to Herman, not all moderators agree with the way that this has been dealt with. I quote:

“Folks like Tim Herman are hard to understand. Tim is a famous knifemaker
and an incredibly nice guy. I know it can be difficult to see that from
his posts sometimes. But he is very passionate about knives, and people
who think they know something about them. He is a moderator of the Whine
and Cheese forum at BFC. That is a place for people who are NOT easily
offended. Tim almost never has to censor anyones words there. When he
posts elsewhere, sometimes he forgets.

Many to not understand the difference between a logical arguement and a
personal attack. Unfortunate, but reality at Bladeforums. For the good
of everyone (including you), please take a long hard look at your posts
and try to understand why folks responded to you the way they did. DO
NOT respond to them. Just think.”

I will not say who said this as it is unfair to drag another into this. But the words are truth. Herman I forgive you, your passion has blinded you to the truth. You have an opinion as do I, I will not attack your words. I disagree with them but please do not say such things in public again. I do not mind hearing truth with proof, insults are another thing.

7. Yes I did make a mistake over the spelling of Tennyson. I was going from memory and did not think to look it up. I may be intelligent but that does not make me wise. In my University circle my behaviour is not unusual. There is no crime in talking about what you have done, some call it boasting. My friends are all very well qualified. I forgot that not all people are as well qualified. Does that make me a better person? No it does not now or ever. It shows I was stupid and insensitive towards those who would obviously take offence to my words. I see this now. Most normal people would take some offence to my words. I will not offer yet another apology for this as I have done so already. We all make mistakes. It is not a mistake if you learn from it.

8. That is all, the show is over. I have shown you, I do put my money where my mouth is. I do buy knives and I respect people. I ought to let this go on and on without me as many have told me to do. Where I come from, silence is seen as an admittance of guilt. I have stated my side of this and listened to others racist and incredibly offensive and arrogant comments. I would love to tell them what I think of them, but I have been asked not to do so by a moderator of this group. I respect him and will do as he has asked. I will however not be going anywhere, I am here to stay. If you do not like that ‘talk to the hand cos the face aint listening’ is that clear enough for you?

I hope this will resolve itself into a calm, and respectful silence. I have asked Jerry to moderate on this disgrace. If he thinks I have been unfair so be it. I will accept what he has to say. Whether it is in my favour or not. I am humble not arrogant, and please don’t see that statement as arrogance. This topic ought to be closed soon.
Here to stay.

W.A.


------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

 

[Hoodoo]

Hey General,
I'm sure not trying to drive you away. I'm just saying that you brought a lot of this criticism on yourself. To use your own words, there certainly was some arrogance to your posts. Or at the very least, it was sure perceived as arrogance. I actually prefer Kit's description about getting some pee on your shoes.

But what the hell, let's just go forward from here. Are you ready to do that? I certainly didn't think you were trying to get any "free" knives. But I was amused that based on your "credentials" you thought the world was going to send you a bunch of high dollar knives to do some unspecified testing. Can't you see the utter hubris in that? Did you really think that Chris Reeves and Jerry Busse would send you knives for testing based on your IQ and A levels in psychology???? C'mon, if you can't see why people found that astoundingly funny, then I don't know what to say. Yeah, you took some pretty hard shots and maybe some were unfair, but maybe now is the time to roll with the punches. Eh?


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Hoodoo

I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM

 

[The General]

I agree! At least some realise I was not out to get free knives. Consider me stupid. I have rolled with this and it is now behind me. Life is for living not reliving.

I might add I do build computers in my spare time. I know this was not against me, but in case anyone asks. I also do have knife credentials. Ask Bernard Levine if he knows me. Ask him if he thinks me stupid or pompus. I know several people on a first name basis involved in the industry. I do not want to involve anyone else however. I only mentioned this as things seem to be calming down. I respect my friends enough not to involve them unless really needed. I did not want BRL to get 10+ e-mails asking about me. Good way to end a friendship.

Aware and resiliant

W.A.

 

[Darrel Ralph]

Talonite has a purpose as a blade steel.
Carbon steel has a purpose as a blade steel.
Stainless has a purpose as a blade steel.
ect.

The problem is (as always) this point is missed (on purpose).

There are NO blade steels that will perform all tasks in the same manner.
If you compare apples to apples with these materials, and design tests around the way the blade material was designed, against each other, the tests would be valid.

There was a discussion a while back about a standard set of tests for each blade steel to
educate the knife buying public about what to expect from each blade material. It would stop all of this vodoo and hype testing if that were to happen.
General. You seem to be an educated person.
Do something positive for the knife buying public.
Use the blade materials as for there designed purpose and WOW they just might do the job required.
Write a set of Standards.


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Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
NEW WEB SITE TAKE A LOOK!!!!!!!!!
New projects and pics to look at !!!!

 

[Hoodoo]

Originally posted by Darrel Ralph:

If you compare apples to apples with these materials, and design tests around the way the blade material was designed, against each other, the tests would be valid.

Darrel,
Couldn't agree more. So much has been written about this, yet as you point out, it seem to be perpetually ignored. "Head to head" tests are often meaningless. It would be great, as you point out, to have specific standards for each type of steel.

Yet the task seems daunting because it isn't just the type of steel, but the thickness and geometry of the blade, the type of edge, how the edge was sharpened, etc. There are so many factors that it becomes difficult to find mutual standards for everything.

This is why I tend to rely on anecdotal information the most. It if works for Jeff Randall or Darrel Ralph, it will probably work for me. I bought a Magnum Camp based on your review, Darrel, and I will no doubt buy a Brush Hog for the very same reason. So someday, maybe we will have universal standards but I'm not holding my breath. In the mean time, I will continue valuing the opinions of those far more experienced than I and using that as an important factor in selecting the knives that I buy.

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Hoodoo

I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM

 

[tom mayo]

I have watched this fiasco go on for months and I gotta say this...when I want to try out a new gun....or a new knife...I go and buy one.....whats the big deal!

 

[The General]

For the record I did post a testing criteria. For some reason it only got as far as the relevant people and Rec.knives. Sorry bout that.

Is to being 'cheap' I have just bought a Sebenza classic ser no 6 of 50. The money that could have gone on a Talonite knife, has gone where it deserves.

Happy and fair

W.A.

 

[jeffj]

Originally posted by Darrel Ralph:
Use the blade materials as for there designed purpose and WOW they just might do the job required.
Write a set of Standards.

Darrel, isn't it correct to say that the materials in question were never originally engineered for use in knives...most were a result of testing by knifemakers. I would think that testing is key to understanding performance in different applications (including material, heat treat, geometry, edge finish, etc.). But as I have found, it is a larger task to bring together users and knifemakers and have a reasonable discussion of such standards. It seems that opinion runs deep in these matters.

Just my observations...

Jeff Jenness

 

[Darrel Ralph]

Jeff
Yup. Your right! Good point.
So lets restate it like this.
Test all the known COMMON knife steels and base some tests and standards for each in several situations.
Add to the database as information becomes available.

And yes. Opinions run very deep. Thats a good reason for basic standards. They might help folks trying to understand different materials for knife blades.

It just seems that the opinions go on forever .
Itwould be great to have some data written about each material as a starting place.

------------------
Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
NEW WEB SITE TAKE A LOOK!!!!!!!!!
New projects and pics to look at !!!!

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 11-21-2000).]

 

[jeffj]

Darrel,

I totally agree. But when I suggested this and even offered to pay, I was ignored or criticized. <A HREF="http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum51/HTML/000191.html" TARGET=_blank>
read this</A>
I was open to suggestion and willing to organize and pay for a lot of such an endeavor, but the only real interest was from Cliff Stamp and from what I gather, I don't think that you or other knifemakers would approve of him setting such standards. I think that makers like yourself should be interested in something like this, because it would make the result that much more respectable. If fact, I would go further in this regard and say that it would be dang near impossible to do it at all without input from knifemakers. I had spent several hours collecting my thoughts on an acceptable/repeatable process, but have since gotten busy with other things.

"...the times they are a changin'." BD

Jeff Jenness

[This message has been edited by jeffj (edited 11-22-2000).]

 

[Darrel Ralph]

Jeff
As you know there is an 80-20 rule in life.
Its pretty general but most often true. Sometimes we have to go ahead with the dream under pressure. There are many respectable test folks in the knife industry.
I dont think any one person should be the person to build a set of standards. How about someone to collect the data that is found . Keep the data that is collected anonymous. Just find a unbiased person to collect, sort and file it in a database.


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Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
NEW WEB SITE TAKE A LOOK!!!!!!!!!
New projects and pics to look at !!!!

 

[Cliff Stamp]

jeffj:

when I suggested this and even offered to pay, I was ignored or criticized.

Well what did you expect? In general how do you think that someone making a product is going to react to you trying to set a standard on how it should perform? The only ones that are going to support you are those that know that they will come out on top in any performance evaluation or those that have nothing to lose (are having a hard time selling their product).

it would be dang near impossible to do it at all without input from knifemakers

Standards are generally set by people who are independent of the product. Would you feel comfortable if a waste refinement plant near your home had no outside restrictions on the level of toxins it was allowed to place into the water table?

There are a couple of ways to set a standard. One is by using outside "experts" in the above for example you would talk to life science people and have them determine a maxium toxin limit. The other is to just evaluate the existing products (or whatever) and use that sample to set the limits.

The first solution is the optimal one as it is independent of the product, however it requires a *lot* of money. There is also the drawback that for the knife industry you would get a lot of backlash which you obviously have no basis to combat at all. It is not like the makers have to listen to you.

The second method is not only much easier but can be done on a gradual basis. You just do whatever you think should be done on a blade and attempt to quantify it in some manner. Now you have a working baseline. As you do this with more blades you keep refering to previous work and eventually you will have a working performance range.

There is also no need for you to do everything, look at just fillet blades for large saltwater fish for example or the performance of ATS-34 or whatever most interests you. You don't have to do everything at once.

-Cliff

 

[jeffj]

Cliff Stamp wrote:

Well what did you expect? In general how do you think that someone making a product is going to react to you trying to set a standard on how it should perform? The only ones that are going to support you are those that know that they will come out on top in any performance evaluation or those that have nothing to lose (are having a hard time selling their product).

Come on Cliff...look at ANY industry. You're not suggesting that everybody involved in making/selling a product have these attitudes. In general, I would say NOT! Some do...yes, the greedy...the incompetent, but I would say that a blanket thrown onto (by implication) knifemakers is unfair and unwarranted. My statement was to point to the fact that I got no positive responses from some knifemakers that I felt would and should be interested in the testing. There are some damn good knifemakers out there who are very capable of being objective in their analysis in spite of the fact that they make their living making knives! As I recall you mentioned a few to me.

The difficulty in bringing a group of interested parties together comes from biased characterizations as you stated above.

I also believe in independent testing, but by and large, in a craft such as knifemaking, the standards are set by the community who hold the expertise. Look around...you don't think that the knife industry came to such success from a bunch of outside experts imposing standards on the industry. Absolutely not! It was done by the knifemakers themselves...striving to produce a better product. THEY hold the expertise! Do you understand the nuances of forming, grinding, heat treating, edging, knife materials? I don't. I rely heavily on what people say who do this day in and day out...knifemakers.

BTW, "outside experts" have their problems also...I question the integrity of many so-called experts who produce reports on standards that please those who pay the bill. Talk about greedy. And you made my point as to why you should include makers, in that they don't have to listen to these "experts". Well what do you expect? You didn't ask them to be part of a process that certainly affects them and they just might want to make sure that the process is not SUBJECTIVE themselves.

Regards,
Jeff Jenness


[This message has been edited by jeffj (edited 11-22-2000).]

 

[Cliff Stamp]

jeffj:

the greedy...the incompetent

It is not greed or incompetence Jeff, those are not the majority and while yes they would obviously create problems, the main issue is just the strong personal bias. It is the simple reason why you don't write your own references. Someone asking for them is not an indication that you are not an honest person, that you are greedy, incompetent or whatever, but just that there is an obvious bias which is not sensible to ignore.

There are some damn good knifemakers out there who are very capable of being objective in their analysis in spite of the fact that they make their living making knives! As I recall you mentioned a few to me.

None of the people I mentioned ever tried to influence the work I did in any way. In fact most would go out of the way not to. And yes they all realized that their opinions were biased. The most obvious example of this came from Bill Martino who when I asked him about the abilities of one of the blades he was selling and he very directly said "Don't ask me, ask one of the people who use them." and he gave me an email address and pointed out a couple of recent threads.

I rely heavily on what people say who do this day in and day out...knifemakers.

Forging is not just for knives, neither are the other aspects you mention. And yes, knifemakers have a vast knowledge about those areas especially as related to knifemaking obviously, but that is not the point.

I question the integrity of many so-called experts who produce reports on standards that please those who pay the bill.

Of course, this is a common problem. There are many who will do a study that will give you whatever results you want. But this is a problem that is created by the people running the project. This is not an issue unless you want it to be.

You didn't ask them to be part of a process that certainly effects them and they just might want to make sure that the process is not SUBJECTIVE themselves.

They would hardly be the ones to ask and many makers realize that. None of the ones I have or currently work with expect to write the method for the evaluation of their blades. If you wanted to evaluate my skills at something Jeff would you honestly ask me to write the evaluation method? If both of us were up for a job would you not have a problem with us being evaluated by a method that I designed? One obvious solution to this would be to have both of use write it. However do you think we would readily reach an agreement? The problem of course coming from the person who realized (or simply thought it more probable) that they were not going to get the job.

In the custom knife forum awhile back Les Robertson said that he had a problem with people evaluating knives in ways that they were not meant to be used. I asked him who sets the standards and he said the makers. I then asked him if I was to compare two blades made for the same thing by two different makers but who each had a vastly different idea of acceptable performance and durability which one should I use. I never got an answer.

Here is a very specific question with an example of two opposing viewpoints :

Should a large survial knife be able to twist the wood out during deep chopping?

I discussed this with McClung and he was very clear that the edge should not be perpendicular to the grain of the wood. I discussed this with Busse and he said that didn't matter.

I have done that with McClung's and two times his knives have failed (large fractures) and other people have reported similar problems (Will Kwan for example). I have done that with two different blades from Busse Combat and both blades had no problems. However McClung's blade will pass if you use his guidelines. Don't you see a clear conflict of interest?

My general rule of thumb for what is acceptable is to go with the highest performance or broadest range of work I have seen or that a maker will claim. However it is obvious that this of course leads you to evaluating makers works in ways that they do not think it should be done as they don't all agree.

-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 11-22-2000).]

 

[The General]

1. I am glad this has calmed down.
2. I would like to thank all those who have written to ask me to stay, and apologise for those who made terrible accusations against me.
3. Cliff, you say me proposals were sound for my tests, I thought so as well. Do you have any other proposals about other tests that would be fair?
4. I would like to say, how disappointed I am with some of the posters here (on Bladeforums). I also think some need to look in a dictionary and see what moderate or moderator means. It is not a good start for a new member of any club to be attacked without much provocation and not only allow it to go ahead but encourage this. I also noticed how many insiders in the industry took a ticket and got in line to have a 'go'. I think some need to have a double take. When two sides are argued, tempers can flare, however it is the sign of a true and honest gentleman, who can make his point without the need for personal attacks. I am sure if I had responded in kind, we would still be arguing over who said or did what. Even worse, thrown out, as I am a nobody... right? I nearly left this group; someone needs to ask why such a thing could happen.
5. I have still not had an apology from those who said and did some terrible things. I admit I did make some mistakes, why cannot others? I am especially disappointed with Tom, who made unfounded and totally untrue accusations, and then won’t even respond to my questions or e-mails. I am glad this came up now and before money was spent by Tom. If he is like this now, imagine when he would have spent money. Tom if you are out there, re-read the thread, and think, think very hard. I know a fair person will come to the same conclusion that so many already have done. I can show you the e-mails if you wish. That’s all, rant over.


W.A.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Wayne :

Do you have any other proposals about other tests that would be fair?

In general I don't like to tell people what work they should do to evaluate a blade. All that this does is propogate my viewpoint which limits information. I would much rather read a review independent of mine. Different work done from a different viewpoint with different methods.

One very interesting thing to do is to get others to comment on the same blade after you have posted your thoughts on it. The best people are those with very different opinions on blade performance. Thanks to Joe Talmadge, Will Kwan and others I have been able to do reviews with multiple perspectives which is a great enhancement.

-Cliff