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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Using a Jig for Bench Stones
- Thread starter me2
- Start date
A little more respect from you is definitely in order. Your questions are out of line, especially for a public forum.
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2008
- Messages
- 18
What? Am I a troll for asking too many questions?
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2008
- Messages
- 18
Ken is selling here in public. He has an ad in public but I can't ask question in public?
Knifedude:
Why would you continue to ask pointed questions, as though you were merely a curious buyer, when you have already indicated you do not trust the seller or his product enough to actually purchase it?
Seems very irregular to me, especially for a new member.
I feel curious. Am I the only one irritated (very) by this abusive nagging? Looks and sounds like a pitbull have goten hold on a nun.
Ken, whom I never met, has been behaving here like the gentleman he certainly must be. And all his restraint gets him is more undeserved abuse.
During the time I`ve been following the goings on the diverse knife forums, he seems to pitch in all of them, with lots of good advise. And obviously has very good standing among his peers.
So, why don`t the moderators nuke this 3 days old provocateur, and clean out the stench for us all. The AH makes it unpleasant for everybody.
Arnold
Ken, whom I never met, has been behaving here like the gentleman he certainly must be. And all his restraint gets him is more undeserved abuse.
During the time I`ve been following the goings on the diverse knife forums, he seems to pitch in all of them, with lots of good advise. And obviously has very good standing among his peers.
So, why don`t the moderators nuke this 3 days old provocateur, and clean out the stench for us all. The AH makes it unpleasant for everybody.
Arnold
Frank, Thanks for the comment. Could you tell me what is the most acute angle you can set on the device? I know that that device was popular for a while some time ago and fell out of favor, but I haven't found the old threads yet to review why it fell out of favor.
Now, now knifedude. I'm sorry if I came across as hostile. It's not my intent. You asked tough questions. That's fine. I gave answers that I thought needed to be given to clearly explain some things. I'm not at all upset with you or hot about anything, even calling me a mad man in a public forum. You're spending your money and want value. Fair enough. I'm the same way. Offering for you to come visit me doesn't sound too hostile. I meant it and I'll even do the cooking
I've always found that converted skeptics become the strongest of advocates.
I will be pleasanty surprised if I get a purchase from our discussion from you. No hard feelings as I said either way. But as a forum member, it is important to me to not just simply agree with you as some misplaced sense of customer service. I would do you no service to think that you were seeing burrs or multiple bevels here, even given the very valid points that db made earlier.
If you want honest answers, I'm here to answer questions. Perhaps a bit bluntly to make some points, but there's no hostility here. When you say you will probably buy another system, but want to get some warranty out of me, there's a contradicton. I've told you I can't beat or meet a lifetime warranty, so you assume that I won't stand behind the product, even though I've told you how much I've spent to make a customer happy replacing two guides that were broken in shipment two times through no fault of my own at considerable cost to me, such that the costs of the product plus shipping and packaging exceeded what I received for the product, not even including any labor costs for building the device - in other words working for free to build it.. If this level of service seems inadequate, then I gladly invite you to try something else instead. This isn't being hostile. It's being honest. I can only offer so much. The last thing I want is for you to buy something from me and be unhappy. I would gladly have you buy all of the alternative products, give them the workout, find out why people like or dislike them and reevaluate whether you think my unit would be useful to you at that time. I truly believe a bit more experience sharpening will give you a better sense of appreciation of my device. I hope you will come to the same conclusions regarding the limitations of these other devices that I did that led me to build what I did.
So knifedude, have I convinced you yet that the dust balls aren't burrs? I'm hoping for some progress here
I'd prefer to be considered a mad scientist rather than a mad man though.
---
Ken
Now, now knifedude. I'm sorry if I came across as hostile. It's not my intent. You asked tough questions. That's fine. I gave answers that I thought needed to be given to clearly explain some things. I'm not at all upset with you or hot about anything, even calling me a mad man in a public forum. You're spending your money and want value. Fair enough. I'm the same way. Offering for you to come visit me doesn't sound too hostile. I meant it and I'll even do the cooking
I've always found that converted skeptics become the strongest of advocates.I will be pleasanty surprised if I get a purchase from our discussion from you. No hard feelings as I said either way. But as a forum member, it is important to me to not just simply agree with you as some misplaced sense of customer service. I would do you no service to think that you were seeing burrs or multiple bevels here, even given the very valid points that db made earlier.
If you want honest answers, I'm here to answer questions. Perhaps a bit bluntly to make some points, but there's no hostility here. When you say you will probably buy another system, but want to get some warranty out of me, there's a contradicton. I've told you I can't beat or meet a lifetime warranty, so you assume that I won't stand behind the product, even though I've told you how much I've spent to make a customer happy replacing two guides that were broken in shipment two times through no fault of my own at considerable cost to me, such that the costs of the product plus shipping and packaging exceeded what I received for the product, not even including any labor costs for building the device - in other words working for free to build it.. If this level of service seems inadequate, then I gladly invite you to try something else instead. This isn't being hostile. It's being honest. I can only offer so much. The last thing I want is for you to buy something from me and be unhappy. I would gladly have you buy all of the alternative products, give them the workout, find out why people like or dislike them and reevaluate whether you think my unit would be useful to you at that time. I truly believe a bit more experience sharpening will give you a better sense of appreciation of my device. I hope you will come to the same conclusions regarding the limitations of these other devices that I did that led me to build what I did.
So knifedude, have I convinced you yet that the dust balls aren't burrs? I'm hoping for some progress here
I'd prefer to be considered a mad scientist rather than a mad man though.
---
Ken
Just to add my $.02 to these shenanigans, a question for you, Ken: When you say multiple bevels, are you talking changing angles along the length of the blade? Or (not-so-)micro-bevel(s) stacking on top of each other uniformly? If you're talking about micro-bevels, then may I question this quote:
Also, separately, could you inform me/us as to your 0.1 degree accuracy measuring tool? I'm wondering what one could use at that level, other than some very finely/accurately graduated rulers and a calculator to do the trig.
in the context of this one:
Also, separately, could you inform me/us as to your 0.1 degree accuracy measuring tool? I'm wondering what one could use at that level, other than some very finely/accurately graduated rulers and a calculator to do the trig.
"Does the ken's device scratch the blade from metal and water under the knife? I hear that EdgePro does this so maybe Ken's does too?"
I've not had the problem, but I'm sure that you COULD do it, but you would have to try hard.
The edge of the knife hangs over the platform edge. The platform is horizontal, unlike the EP, so grit and water is less likely to travel on a level surface than go downhill. When you freehand sharpen this problem exists too.
What's the answer? If you are doing a long session, obviously with a muddy stone, but even with a diamond plate or non muddy stone like a Shapton or Shapton pro, if mud or grit goes past the bevel you can scratch the side of the blade. A diamond may and DOES come out of a DMT plate on occassion, mud crawls up the side of the blade etc. You can put blue painter's tape on the sides of the knife. In practice, in my hands, this happens very rarely. I clean off the knife and the stone often enough to keep this from happening. After finishing from one grit to the next, I make sure that the grit is cleaned away on the knife, the stone and the area. I do this whether I am freehand sharpening or using any device, such as my 'Gizmo'. I'm also a bit more fastidious than most and don't share a waterbath for my stones to share in common, because I don't like to have grit contamination between stones.
I also use plastic for all parts of the device that touch the knife, which further eliminates the possibility of getting any scratches. You might think about this when looking at any metal clamp holding your knife. I did and that's one of the considerations that went into my device's design. My design is also constructed so that you will not scratch the stone, even with long passes on long blades, because there is nothing that will hit the stone, even if you are sharpening at more acute angles than the other devices are capable of. I purposely eliminated using a clamp for the knife to alow more acute angles and to eliminate a source of scratching a knife or a stone. If you have a clamp with grit in it or if it is too loose and slips or too tight and marks the knife, you will appreciate why I used a plastic non-scratching guide rather than a clamp. Even the guide is thin enough to not get in the way for thin blades. In all instances my highest concern for making design decisions was for precision. At the risk of arrogance, I don't believe that any of these other devices or freehand sharpening is capable of this high a level of precision. If you want this highest level of precision, there is a level of skill that you will develop with the device. The device can be thought of as a skill multiplier, not something that you shove a knife in and get a result. If you just want scary sharp results, you can be a bit less obsessive, but even then, you will scare people with the edges you get. And I'm not going to warranty that you can't cut yourself on the edges that you will produce or that the edges will last a lifetime
My device is also built so that you can rinse the entire device under the sink. Even with moderate care, you should be able to keep errant grit from scratching the knife, by keeping your work area clean.
Knifedude, ask away. I love talking about my device and have nothing to hide. Guys, I appreciate the sentiments, but I promise I won't melt. If I have to work this hard for every sale, I might have to raise my prices
---
Ken
I've not had the problem, but I'm sure that you COULD do it, but you would have to try hard.
The edge of the knife hangs over the platform edge. The platform is horizontal, unlike the EP, so grit and water is less likely to travel on a level surface than go downhill. When you freehand sharpen this problem exists too.
What's the answer? If you are doing a long session, obviously with a muddy stone, but even with a diamond plate or non muddy stone like a Shapton or Shapton pro, if mud or grit goes past the bevel you can scratch the side of the blade. A diamond may and DOES come out of a DMT plate on occassion, mud crawls up the side of the blade etc. You can put blue painter's tape on the sides of the knife. In practice, in my hands, this happens very rarely. I clean off the knife and the stone often enough to keep this from happening. After finishing from one grit to the next, I make sure that the grit is cleaned away on the knife, the stone and the area. I do this whether I am freehand sharpening or using any device, such as my 'Gizmo'. I'm also a bit more fastidious than most and don't share a waterbath for my stones to share in common, because I don't like to have grit contamination between stones.
I also use plastic for all parts of the device that touch the knife, which further eliminates the possibility of getting any scratches. You might think about this when looking at any metal clamp holding your knife. I did and that's one of the considerations that went into my device's design. My design is also constructed so that you will not scratch the stone, even with long passes on long blades, because there is nothing that will hit the stone, even if you are sharpening at more acute angles than the other devices are capable of. I purposely eliminated using a clamp for the knife to alow more acute angles and to eliminate a source of scratching a knife or a stone. If you have a clamp with grit in it or if it is too loose and slips or too tight and marks the knife, you will appreciate why I used a plastic non-scratching guide rather than a clamp. Even the guide is thin enough to not get in the way for thin blades. In all instances my highest concern for making design decisions was for precision. At the risk of arrogance, I don't believe that any of these other devices or freehand sharpening is capable of this high a level of precision. If you want this highest level of precision, there is a level of skill that you will develop with the device. The device can be thought of as a skill multiplier, not something that you shove a knife in and get a result. If you just want scary sharp results, you can be a bit less obsessive, but even then, you will scare people with the edges you get. And I'm not going to warranty that you can't cut yourself on the edges that you will produce or that the edges will last a lifetime
My device is also built so that you can rinse the entire device under the sink. Even with moderate care, you should be able to keep errant grit from scratching the knife, by keeping your work area clean.
Knifedude, ask away. I love talking about my device and have nothing to hide. Guys, I appreciate the sentiments, but I promise I won't melt. If I have to work this hard for every sale, I might have to raise my prices
---
Ken
It is obvious by now you are not interested.....move along and quit giving the guy a hard time. If his rig is not for you then go find something else.
Hi Bob,
Thanks for joining in. You are correct in that this is two separate topics. On the Takeda, three separate bevels have been ground over the length of the blade with only 2 degrees difference between them. This is approaching a convex shape, but rather than a single curve, more of a polygonal but precise approximation. To me, doing something this precise is something that I don't believe too many people could do by hand.
The other topic is just sloppy haphazard inconsistent random bevel angles piled on top of each other or basically sharpening with poor control of bevel angles. I was referencing the multiple bevels haphazardly piled up which knife dude said he saw in my photograph. I'm quite comfortable that this is not the case.
I include an inclinometer with the device marked in 1 degree increments. It is reasonably priced and well worth the moderate expense.
If you want to measure it more accurately, I use a device called a digital inclinometer. I zero this small electrical device against the platform and then rest it against the back of the stoneholder. The inclnometer measures to 0.1 degrees repeatable accuracy. I have another one that reads to 0.05 degrees accuracy, but it isn't repeatable to this level of accuracy. It measures statically and cannot be used to measure while the object being measured is moving. I haven't seen one that measures angles while you are moving. It is only with this device that I noticed sub single degree changes with sufficient stone thickness variations.
If you are a hard core tinkerer, you can use an accelerometer and dc rather than ac couple the output and subtract the AC acceleration to turn it into a tilt measuring device. The voltage will be proportional to tilt angle, since there is a constant downward 1 g acceleration present (on this planet ). By amplifying the signal and hooking it up to a precision voltmeter you could even exceed these devices. I used to build devices like this to study human movement, running a clinical laboratory specifically for this purpose, so I'm familiar with just how steady humans can hold something and even at what frequency their limbs vibrate during the performance of various tasks. I tried to incorporate this experience into this device to enhance my ability to sharpen past my intrinsic capabilities.
This 0.1 degree accuracy inclinometer is called a 'tilt box'. No slide rules required Just read it off the display.
---
Ken
Thanks for joining in. You are correct in that this is two separate topics. On the Takeda, three separate bevels have been ground over the length of the blade with only 2 degrees difference between them. This is approaching a convex shape, but rather than a single curve, more of a polygonal but precise approximation. To me, doing something this precise is something that I don't believe too many people could do by hand.
The other topic is just sloppy haphazard inconsistent random bevel angles piled on top of each other or basically sharpening with poor control of bevel angles. I was referencing the multiple bevels haphazardly piled up which knife dude said he saw in my photograph. I'm quite comfortable that this is not the case.
I include an inclinometer with the device marked in 1 degree increments. It is reasonably priced and well worth the moderate expense.
If you want to measure it more accurately, I use a device called a digital inclinometer. I zero this small electrical device against the platform and then rest it against the back of the stoneholder. The inclnometer measures to 0.1 degrees repeatable accuracy. I have another one that reads to 0.05 degrees accuracy, but it isn't repeatable to this level of accuracy. It measures statically and cannot be used to measure while the object being measured is moving. I haven't seen one that measures angles while you are moving. It is only with this device that I noticed sub single degree changes with sufficient stone thickness variations.
If you are a hard core tinkerer, you can use an accelerometer and dc rather than ac couple the output and subtract the AC acceleration to turn it into a tilt measuring device. The voltage will be proportional to tilt angle, since there is a constant downward 1 g acceleration present (on this planet
). By amplifying the signal and hooking it up to a precision voltmeter you could even exceed these devices. I used to build devices like this to study human movement, running a clinical laboratory specifically for this purpose, so I'm familiar with just how steady humans can hold something and even at what frequency their limbs vibrate during the performance of various tasks. I tried to incorporate this experience into this device to enhance my ability to sharpen past my intrinsic capabilities.This 0.1 degree accuracy inclinometer is called a 'tilt box'. No slide rules required
Just read it off the display.---
Ken
I had a similar one (still do from Wixey) and picked up another one by Beall that I prefer. Here's a review that seems similar to my experiences:
http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=3061484
---
Ken
http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=3061484
---
Ken
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2001
- Messages
- 8,968
The vid might be great, but he was enough of an ass to get himself banned from Bladeforums.
Guys,
I'm not a nun and I have punched out a dog that attacked my dog once (a husky mix, not a pitbull), so I'm not going to go cry in a corner here I do appreciate the sentiments and while I'll take knife dude as being oddly interested, he's actually doing me a favor, intentional or otherwise, explaining more about my device to all of you than I otherwise would be doing, so I'm more than happy to answer questions, from knifedude or anyone else interested or even curious. If I make sales, great. If it just yields a good conversation, great. If I learn or teach something from someone / to someone, so much the better. I enjoy knives, primarily kitchen knives and sharpening them and preparing food with them and that's why I hope to spend some time here. I'm not here for a hanging.
---
Ken
I'm not a nun and I have punched out a dog that attacked my dog once (a husky mix, not a pitbull), so I'm not going to go cry in a corner here
I do appreciate the sentiments and while I'll take knife dude as being oddly interested, he's actually doing me a favor, intentional or otherwise, explaining more about my device to all of you than I otherwise would be doing, so I'm more than happy to answer questions, from knifedude or anyone else interested or even curious. If I make sales, great. If it just yields a good conversation, great. If I learn or teach something from someone / to someone, so much the better. I enjoy knives, primarily kitchen knives and sharpening them and preparing food with them and that's why I hope to spend some time here. I'm not here for a hanging.---
Ken
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2005
- Messages
- 149
Ken
A friend is aking how much for just the stone holder and the rod. Nothing else. What's your email adress?
Regards
Frank
A friend is aking how much for just the stone holder and the rod. Nothing else. What's your email adress?
Regards
Frank
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2005
- Messages
- 149
Ken
Sent you a PM
Regards
Frank
Sent you a PM
Regards
Frank
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2005
- Messages
- 149