Using a Jig for Bench Stones

[knifedude123]

Hi everyone, I just signed up because I found this thread while searching Google for knife sharpening ideas. I have a lot of knives and have been reasearching how best to sharpen them. I like the look of the EdgePro but don't want to buy the stones all the time.

This leads me to the device that Ken is selling here. I like it because it can use large water stones that I know will last longer.

Ken, is your device based on the EdgePro? It seems like it's a copy of it but bigger.

How much does it cost and what do you charge for shipping to AL?

Do you offer a warrenty?

Thanks

 

[knifedude123]

Does anyone have Ken's sharpening jig? How does it work?

Is Ken selling them here on Bladeforums? I see he has a link to another site from here where they're for sale. I'm really interested in hearing about them.

Thanks

 

[Rob Babcock]

Hi everyone, I just signed up because I found this thread while searching Google for knife sharpening ideas. I have a lot of knives and have been reasearching how best to sharpen them. I like the look of the EdgePro but don't want to buy the stones all the time.

This leads me to the device that Ken is selling here. I like it because it can use large water stones that I know will last longer.

Ken, is your device based on the EdgePro? It seems like it's a copy of it but bigger.

How much does it cost and what do you charge for shipping to AL?

Do you offer a warrenty?

Thanks

It's funny- I wrote to Ken asking virtually all these questions over at KnifeForums! Since he hasn't checked in today, I'll tell you what he told me (til he can clarify for himself).

Ken is a big fan of the Edge Pro, and it was one source of inspiration, but it's not an outright copy. He incorporated what he deemed to be the best features of the EP with the virtues of the PanaVise, with some ideas of his own. If the price hasn't changed recently I think it's $400, plus about $50 shipping. The Gizmo, er, "PSD", is a pretty large device.

There isn't a warrenty per se- I asked him that, too. He explained that basically it's pretty simple, and there isn't much to go wrong. That said, it could break. Ken isn't some big time dealer with a hunded PSDs in stock. He hand builds each one when you order it. He isn't making a fortune on 'em, just trying to break even. I think if you ever have an issue or problem with it he'd do his best to help make it right. That seems pretty fair to me.

 

[Rob Babcock]

Hi everyone, I just signed up because I found this thread while searching Google for knife sharpening ideas. I have a lot of knives and have been reasearching how best to sharpen them. I like the look of the EdgePro but don't want to buy the stones all the time.

I do want to address this point in some detail, Knifedude. The EP stones aren't huge but you really aren't going be constantly replacing them. I haven't sharpened hundreds of knives on mine yet, but Ben says medium & finer grits will do hundreds of knives. The coarse will dish somewhat quickly, especially while you're learning, but you can flatten 'em several times. I did a couple of really hard largish combat-type knives of my dads when I got mine and I did dish the 220 a bit, but it flattened nicely on my DMT DiaSharp Xtra Coarse. I can detect no wear whatsoever on the other stones. Bear in mind that the Coarse isn't even necessary unless you have a knife as dull as dirt or one you need to reprofile.

I did purchase an extra 220 stone, just in case, although I haven't needed it yet.

That said, the ability of the PSD to use any stone is a huge plus. I think Ken is partial to the Shapton GlassStones, and they intrigue me, too. Sadly, my "other" hobby (audio equipment) is considerably more expensive than my knife hobby- to date my Big Rig has cost me about $14,000- and I just bought a new preamp. That means a PSD is a couple months away for me, blew all my mad money.:thumbdn:

 

[ksskss]

Hi knifedude!

Thanks for asking. Please send me a PM regarding purchasing one of these devices or any detailed questions in addition to any questions you want to post here.

I consider my device to be considerably different than the EP, allowing you to do all of the functions of an EP plus more. I wanted to design a device that did more than just be bigger. It allows for a higher degree of precision. It has a wider degree of angles from zero degrees to as much as 45 degrees if you want a full height 'mast', although typically most want a shorter mast allowing 0 - 25 degree bevels, so it can be used for thinning edges as well as sany desired angle. It allows for three modes of sharpening, one a more precise version of the stone over the knife, another where the stone is held steady at a precise angle and one which is the traditional mode of sharpening. As you note, it allows you to use regular sharpening stones as well as standard diamond plates (DMT) or anything that you can hold in a standard sized stone holder. It also allows you to easily sharpen larger knives, including cleavers.

The device costs $350.

My shipping costs are usually a bit over $50, but, for the continental USA, I only charge $50. For outside the continental USA, I charge whatever the shipping costs are over $50 as well (the full shipping cost).

There's links here to discussions about the device and reviews as well as youtube videos demonstrating the device.

http://www.kenss.com/knifesharpeningdevice.html

Thanks again for asking!

---
Ken

 

[ksskss]

Rob, Thanks for the posting! We were writing at the same time I guess my correction is that I'm selling it for $350 plus shipping, which is $50 less than you quoted, so you'll need $50 less mad money

In large measure, the size of the device is partially dictated by the size of standard sharpening stones, allowing a full sized stone to go across the knife edge from one end of the stone to the other, producing uniform stone wear. In a practical sense, the device takes up the same space you would use for performing sharpening with traditional techniques, with space below the platform. I typically use it on a plastic board over the sink (It can be rinsed off).

---
Ken

 

[Rob Babcock]

Rob, Thanks for the posting! We were writing at the same time I guess my correction is that I'm selling it for $350 plus shipping, which is $50 less than you quoted, so you'll need $50 less mad money
Ken

Heheheh...the wheels are turning as we speak. You must be having some success, and well deserved, I'd add! I think the Gizmo (don't make me say PSD) is a great peice of engineering. Yeah, I'm gonna get me one- but I better at least wait til UPS brings me my new preamp.

And I might even sell my Apex to buy it! No biggie, though- I'd just be dealing it to my Dad.

 

[knifedude123]

Thank you to Rob & Ken for your responses.

I still have questions.

1. Does this come with any stones? The EdgePro does

2. So there's no warranty? This makes me nervous

3. What is the actual device made out of? The one on the videos looks like a glued mock up or prototype.


Thanks

 

[ksskss]

Hi knifedude

Here's my answers:


1. Does this come with any stones? The EdgePro does

No. The advantage to this is that you can use any normal sized stones you want rather than be limited to a more restrictive set (primarily) from a single vendor.

I will provide you with a glass plate which you can use in the stone holder with a number of grits placed on paper, adhesive backed sandpapers or 3m abrasive papers. I also don't make any money from an aftermarket of supplies for the device and you can use full sized stones. This approach saves you money inthe long run and allows you much more freedom to use this device with the abrasives of you own choice.


2. So there's no warranty? This makes me nervous

What would make you comfortable? I'm open to your suggestions.

3. What is the actual device made out of? The one on the videos looks like a glued mock up or prototype.

The one in the videos IS a initial prototype. The actual device for sale iis shown in the photograph at the top of the page. It is strong enough to stand on it and quite solidly built.

http://www.kenss.com/knifesharpeningdevice.html

Thanks for asking. Please feel free to ask anything else.

---
Ken

 

[knifedude123]

Thanks for the answers Ken. I'm very interested in your device and I have little money to waste so I ask a lot of questions to make sure I can get the best deal.

I heard some people mention that EdgePro's stones wear at different rates and they have to adjust the angle to compensate for this. How does your device handle this problem? I would think that it would be the same. I have Norton & Shapton stones and will get DMTs too. Will I have to readjust the angle when I change every stone each time? That's a lot of angle changing. I have the same worries about the Edgepro too but I think it would be worse with your device.

Also, I'm nervous about no warranty because it costs so much and could break and then where will I be? I never heard of selling a mechanical device without a warranty. Seems like a bad idea but I'm still interested if it works as good as you say even if it would be a gamble to me.

I didn't notice the differance between the video and picture device. Now I see one is clear and one is white. The white one still looks like a prototype to me but you say this is the finished one?

Thanks

 

[heavydutysg135]

I heard some people mention that EdgePro's stones wear at different rates and they have to adjust the angle to compensate for this. How does your device handle this problem? I would think that it would be the same. I have Norton & Shapton stones and will get DMTs too. Will I have to readjust the angle when I change every stone each time? That's a lot of angle changing. I have the same worries about the Edgepro too but I think it would be worse with your device.

I really think that the best solution would be to keep the stones flat; I use my DMT Course 325 grit to lap all my stones. You can also use a flat tile and high quality sandpaper (or other dedicated lapping stones). Changing the angle to attempt to compensate for a dished out hone does not sound like a good idea to me and I don't know why one would do such a thing with an EdgePro or any other device. If the stone is not flat and it bothers you then flatten it.

 

[Broos]

I think anyone with Murray Carters video, a few stones, and starting off with carbon steel blades can learn how to sharpen freehand with a little persistence. After a while you will develop a feel for where the stone is hitting the edge (a loupe will greatly increase your feel!), and learn how to put your fingers in the right spot to sharpen the spot you want to hit. For me it's got the added benefit of being as close as I can bring myself to meditating (as opposed to the catatonic state you get while sitting at a computer screen!).

No offense to the jig/rig/gadget lovers out there, or those who believe they can hold a knife vertically or horizontally more consistently than they can hold it at an angle. I got a number of them too (still love my Buck honemaster just for its design though I won't use it), but use them less and less as time goes on. I've always been frustrated with the loss of "feel" and also sharpening tips with them.

Also search for "EZe sharp" - another rig where you can use full size stones.

 

[knifedude123]

I really think that the best solution would be to keep the stones flat; I use my DMT Course 325 grit to lap all my stones. You can also use a flat tile and high quality sandpaper (or other dedicated lapping stones). Changing the angle to attempt to compensate for a dished out hone does not sound like a good idea to me and I don't know why one would do such a thing with an EdgePro or any other device. If the stone is not flat and it bothers you then flatten it.

I was meaning that the stones wear and become different sizes (thickness) which makes the stones to hit the knife at different angles. If this happens on the tiny EdgePro stones then I would expect that a 1/2" stone will have a different angle than a 1" stone will. This causes me to think that it is not very easy to use different size stones especially full size water stones.

 

[knifedude123]

Also search for "EZe sharp" - another rig where you can use full size stones.

Thanks for the search tip. I just found a thread where a guy made a full size stone holder arm that works with the EZE Sharp. See HERE

The EZE Sharp looks well built and is very inexpensive. It's even cheaper than the EdgePro Apex too! Now I have 3 to compare.

 

[ksskss]

Rob,

I'm looking forward to hearing from you when you're ready.

Heavyduty, what knifedude is referring to isn't the flatness of the stone, but the stone thickness. I and knifedude are assuming that the stone is properly flattened.

This is actually an interesting question. There is a slight change in angle as the stone thickness varies when the device is used with the stone overhead. It has no effect at all in the other two positions - the stone angled or the stone held flat.

As best I understand it, on the EP you have fixed marks on the shaft for the preset angles, so as the stone thins you have a change in angle and no means to compensate for it. You also have no means to compensate for an edge just beyond the platform's edge vs further away, say putting a clever hanging well over the edge of the platform.

On my device, you actually can measure the angle at the edge of the blade that you are sharpening at with the stone you are using. By actually measuring the angle because the blade is held horizontally you know precisely what angle you are sharpening at. This allows you to use stones at any thickness. Obviously if one stone is a brick and the next is a thin plate, you willl have to adjust the angles. There's no way around this. For this reason, I prefer to stick with a series of stones of similar dimensions. In practice, I find a real easy solution is to start with DMT plates and then go to Shapton GlassStones, since the negligible difference in thickness between the plates and GlassStones require no adjustments to run both of the entire series. For this reason, It is best to use all Nortons, or Shapton pros etc to reduce the amount of adjustments. Minor differences in stone thicknesses don't cause problems. You can visually confirm this with the use of a permanent marker on the blade edge. Typically one or two swipes of the next stone will completely remove the marker along the entire bevel.

Usually the variance caused by stone thicknesses is considerably less than the variance doing a blade by hand even without fine readjustments, but if you want that extra bit of precision, you can do it. If you are going for a perfect 16000 grit edge, I'd suggest doing it, but for a good 4k edge you'll find it unnecessary if the stones are of reasonably similar thicknesses and in all likelihood it will exceed what you can do by hand.

Regarding the warranty issue, I don't have a legal department to draft formal warranties. All I have is my reputation and my desire to see people successful with this device. I had the carrier damage the guard to a device in shipping. I built a new one and shipped it out. The new guide and shipping was at my expense. They damaged this one too. I built ANOTHER guide and made a thicker one for the customer and shipped this third guide in a specially constructed box, with the shipping alone for that second replacement costing me $100. Even building the device for free, I still lost money getting a working device to the customer. If something similar happened to you, I'd do the same. I want to have this device succeed in your hands. It's not a formal warranty, but I can't think of too many companies or individuals who would stand behind their product to the point of losing money doing it. If it fails, I want to know why, preferably with pictures, and will strive to not just fix it but make it better. I'll do what I can within my means. I don't bill for tech support and this is a shoestring operation, not an international conglomerate. I hope to build my reputation in a favorable manner.

These devices are made by me, in my home, not outsourced to China. The one in the picture is not a prototype. This is not some injection molded high volume product, but something where every hole must be drilled very acurately, requiring accurately built jigs to be made, multiple types of plastics and glues to be tried until an ideal combination was produced, special tools to be bought or built, etc etc. Multiple prototypes, both successful and failures were made and used before even showing the device. My labor rate for making the device is a pittance, but I wanted to offer it to people interested in using it. I doubt it will ever be mass produced or do I expect every housewife with a knife to run out and buy one. It is designed for those wanting to produce exceptional edges. The prototype used plastics that were not as rugged and the final version which has reinforced theading and screws and is a much more robust device. The counterbalancing mechanism is revised to allow a much finer degree of counterbalancing. The tooling for building the guides has been improved for a more finished look. No screws are required for the plastic side pieces for the guide. These minor changes have resulted in a much ore robust piece of equipment.

I can appreciate you not wanting to waste your money, so please ask away if you have more questions.

---
Ken

 

[ksskss]

Broos, I can certainly appreciate doing sharpening with the straightforward stone and knife and 'zen moment' combination. I can assure you that you can have many happy zen moments with my device as well and that the skills you develop as a hand sharpener will be useful in mastering and appreciating what this device does. In all honesty, I believe the focused meditative aspects of sharpening are an attraction to people who enjoy sharpening even beyond the results of pursuing and producing amazing edges. I'm certainly not here to convert all to using my device - I couldn't build them that fast

And I completely agree with you that using magnification to view your edges is invaluable, both while you're doing it as well as to evaluate final results.

I think you would be pleasantly surprised by the sense of feel that is preserved using the device. Not only can I do the task at hand more precisely, but I can 'hear the differences between stones' and feel subtle differences in the stones more precisely. If you want to hear the differences, follow the links to the series of videos and listen to the differences between the coarse stones to the finer stones as I progress through the sequence of stones from a 220 grit to a 8000 grit stone..

You will also be pleasantly surprised at how well it follows curves out to the blade tip, producing a uniform bevel to the tip. Because of this extra precision you can more precisely and uniformly remove each scratch pattern with each subsequently finer stone, not missing low lying spots, resulting in a very clean finish with minimal wasted metal removed.

You'll also be pleasantly surprised how you can 'target' a spot to bring it to a flat bevel by more finely adjusting your strokes or the way you grip the handle or stone. None of your skills that you've developed by adjusting your finger pressures will be wasted here. I didn't design this for just the beginner to enjoy. ou can even let the sone rotate freely around the curve of the blade or acentuate the pressures to acentuate the bevel hould you wish to differentially widen the bevel widths towards the tip.

In practice I find that hand sharpening improves my skill with the device and using the device improves my hand sharpening skills.

Regarding the ez sharp device, the modification is certainly an improvement over the original design and this modification is something you will need to do yourself I believe. The knife holder doesn't appear to be capable of going down to zero degrees, so that flatening the entire knife without the clamp getting in the way is a restriction. If you never sharpen at acute angles and don't wish to actually measure the angles you are sharpening at that approach will work to a more limited extent.

Here's a high magnification view and overview of a double beveled 311 m Takeda yanagi that I sharpened on my device up to 16000 grit. It has a triple bevel. The initial side bevel is at 3 degrees, followed by a secondary bevel at 5 degrees, which can be seen as the slight chamge in angle. Finally the final bevel is at 7 degrees. Note the absolute uniformity and precision of three separate bevels each within 2 degrees of each other. My hat's off to anyone who can do this by hand. I can't. Note the reflectons of the clouds and blue sky and the knife finish to give a sense of the magnification that the fnal edge is shot at.

---
Ken

 

[knifedude123]

For me I worry about what happens when I switch from a thin stone to a thick stone and not adjust the angle. I don't think that not changing the angle is good because I will be scraping the stone high on the bevel making it hard to get a good finish by removing marks left from the first stone. I mean thin stones like EdgePro uses is a problem so big stones must be a bigger problem. You don't think so? Won't this leave multiple bevels? That's ugly.

I wish you had a warranty because I would probably buy from you.

Oh, does Bladeforums get a donation if I buy from you?

Thanks for all your help.

 

[Rob Babcock]

For me I worry about what happens when I switch from a thin stone to a thick stone and not adjust the angle. I don't think that not changing the angle is good because I will be scraping the stone high on the bevel making it hard to get a good finish by removing marks left from the first stone. I mean thin stones like EdgePro uses is a problem so big stones must be a bigger problem. You don't think so? Won't this leave multiple bevels? That's ugly.

I wish you had a warranty because I would probably buy from you.

Oh, does Bladeforums get a donation if I buy from you?

Thanks for all your help.

Not every product is ideal for every user. You can chose between two approaches: maximum accuracy & repeatability on the one hand or ease of use and convenience on the other. A Ferrari with a stick shift is not going to be as easy to drive as a Ford Taurus with an automatic, but ease of use isn't what prompts one to purchase a Ferrari! Do you remember cassette decks? The cheapo ones had "auto level record" that set the level for you, but on very loud parts the dynamics get clamped. It's easier than a deck that allows you to set the level with a meter, but not nearly as accurate.

For maximum accuracy you would reset the angle when changing stones, but if you're going from one grit of Shapton GlassStones to another I'd expect them to be within a mm or less (Ken has used them, perhaps he could say). Given the length of the arm that would have to be a tiny fraction of a degree, probably not even enough to measure.

The thinness of the EP stones is something of a concern, I guess. They won't last as long as a 1" thick Norton, but then again they're only about $14 each. Unless you're doing a dozen knives a day I can't imagine going thru many stones, especially the finer ones- you can hardly see them wear.

Neither one, the EP or the PSD, is going to be "set it and forget it" like the Ronco Rotierrie. But both will give you a great edge. Case in point- my dad has two identical folders, one that was pretty dull and one that he got from a fellow BF'er that's pretty damned sharp. I did his dull one on my Apex to see how close I am. It's not an easy one to sharpen as the blade doesn't have many flat points and is thicker at the back, but I thinned the edge a bit, then ramped up 5 degrees to micro bevel it. After going thru all 4 stones & a ceramic rod, I feel that the other knife may be a smidge sharper but my dad thinks they're the same. Either way, it's very sharp, although in point of fact I'm a lot better at sharpening kitchen knives.

No knock on Ken, but if warranty and stuff is an issue to you I don't think you can go wrong with an Edge Pro. Ben has been around a long time and iirc the warranty is for life.

But you pays your money and you takes your choice.

 

[ksskss]

Knifedude,

What warranty would make you comfortable? If it sounds reasonable, that's the warranty I'll give you. This should not be a problem at all.

Leaving multiple bevels is totally unacceptable and would completely defeat the purpose of the device. That anyone can do by hand. Look at the geometry of the device. If the stone is say 2 mm thicker on my device the difference in angle is miniscule. It's not the thickness of the stone, it is the difference in thickness between two stones that is relevant. The device is bigger so the angle change is quite small. How small? Smaller than the accuracy with which you will set an EP by using the markings in all likelihood. So small that a COUPLE of strokes will ERASE the difference from the previous bevel, leaving a SINGLE bevel not several bevels piled on top of each other. This is less of a difference than most people can maintain passing a stone over an edge between two stones, and probably less than the variance between two sequential strokes. If your angle measurer measures to within 1 degree accuracy, unless you are using magnification, you won't detect it. If the stone height difference is 2 mm for instance, you are changing the height along the mast by 2 mm. The difference from the mast to the edge is the same so the angle change is very small compared to the same geometry on an EP which is a much smaller triangle. The differences in stone thicknesses are greatly minimzed just by virtue of the size of the device. If you want absolute precision, you can check the angle before sharpening after changing stones and you will quickly see what is the difference and if you wish to adjust it out. You are free to use that level of precision. This will become part of your expertise in using the device to it's full potential.

Is it customary for BF to get donations? If so, I'll split the donation with you.

I will say this. When you do it by hand you won't notice if the angle is off a fraction. It just gets blurred by the imprecision. With my setup, you will see even the tiniest errors, but you will be able to precisely correct it or watch them disappear, and you will develop a more precise understanding of the whole process of sharpening. If a bevel mismatch of a couple tenths of a degree is there, you will rapidly remove the difference. Doing it by hand the error margin is greater and you won't see it, leaving you blissfully ignorant. With this extra precision, you will precisely know the difference and get dead flat bevels.
If a knife is made uneven or if a single bevel has high and low spots, you will see them more clearly. It doesn't mask imprecision. But this is the only way to achieve greater precision. You will see differences in the use of a muddy or non muddy stone or the use of nagura more clearly. This will improve your understanding of the whole process and make you a better freehand sharpener too and show you your (my) limitations, so that you know what to improve upon as a hand sharpener and what your limits are.


Again, you don't want multiple bevels as a final result. In parctice, I've NEVER had this problem and consider a bevel with multiple random bevels completely unaceptable.

I consider this bevel acceptable, with zero trace of errant bevels or traces of scratches from previous lower grit stones. Note that this picture was taken immediately after the sharpening video of the cleaver in the youtube videos and during that video, no adjustments were made at all between using the initial DMT plates and any of the GlassStones:

---
Ken

 

[knifedude123]

I see two bevels on that cleaver and big metal burrs too. I guess this is what your device does? Maybe all jig systems do this?

Thanks for your warranty offer. I like what EdgePro offers, can you match this?

I don't know if a donation to Bladeforums is normal. I like this site and thought you donated when you made a sale. Are you a sponsor? Do you want me to split your sponsor fee?