Using the 204

S

Spidey

Joined
Sep 21, 1999
Messages
62
I recently got a 204 and have been using it. So far, I`m getting a decent edge, but not the "razor" edge I would like. I am still waiting for the arrival of my video. Given the basic idea that you have to get a burr and then grind off the burr, I have been doing enough strokes on one side to get the burr at 30 degrees, then doing the same on the other side using the grey sticks on the corners. Then I switch to 40 degrees and the flats on the greys. Then 40 degrees and corners on the whites and finally 40 degrees and flats on the whites. This is on my Small Sebenza. I get an edge that "slice" cuts very well, but doesn`t "push" cut as I would like.

Any suggestions?

Thanks.

Spidey
 
Spidey - Try alternating strokes rather than creating a burr.

20 strokes each side (1 on one side, alternate to tother side, 1 stroke, etc.) on the corner of the gray stone, 40 degrees.

Repeat on flat of gray, 20 strokes each side.

At this point, blade should comfortable slice paper.

Then repeat the same on the corner of the white. Alternate strokes. lighten towards the end. Should comfortable shave hair.

Be sure stones are clean.

be sure blade is held straight up and down (perpendicular to the table). "Stiff wrist".

Use a decent steel. Let me know how that works. Sorry you didn't get the video yet. It helps a great deal.

sal
 
Hi Spidey,

Your video should be on its way... how long ago did you send in your card?

Angela
 
Sal --

Thanks for the info. I will try your recommendations at the next sharpening session.

Angela --

I sent the card in some time ago. I'm living outside the U.S. and my mail first goes to my company in the U.S. and then gets forwarded to me. This can cause some delay.

Thanks!
 
Sal --

I followed your suggestions and got the best edge yet.

Thanks!

Steve

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At that time the LORD said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives… (Joshua 5:2)
 
Interesting! Sal, have you run into this often, where someone is using the burr method but is getting unsatisfactory results, but then gets good results with the simpler method you advise? Is it a matter of the burr method gives better results but is harder to master? Or do you disagree that the burr method works better at all?

Joe
 
Joe - I must confess that I do not think the burr method works better for hand sharpening. If one leads with the edge on the sharpening stroke, and alternates strokes, a burr never forms.

I think it does work better for power sharpening. With power, you are grinding steel too quickly to try to alternate strokes so the burr tells you when you've closed the bevels. The burr at that point is probably too soft to make much of an edge and is best ground off when doing the other side.

The only exception that I know of is hand sharpening a razor. In that instance, the burr is "wisped" out on the strop because it is the burr that is cutting the hair. However, touching anything to that burr harder than a hair will fold or break the burr off and leave an unaceptable edge.

That is why someone that shaves with a straight razor will tell anyone looking at the edge,"not to touch the edge with the tip of yhour finger too feel how sharp it is". Naturally they do it anyway.

Also keep in mind that with sharpening, it is ALL opinion. I know a guy tht tests sharp by touching the edge to his tongue. another that "hears" the edge when cutting.

I guess what is really important is "did the knife get sharp enough to do the intended job.

sal
 
Ya, I agree, in the end, if it's sharp, that's great.

For me, I think the burr provides a few nice things, even when hand sharpening. First, it tells me when I've brought the *entire* edge close enough on that side. Otherwise, with no burr, you can end up with some spots sharper than others, depending on where you tested. Also, it tells me that I can't possibly get any sharper -- something I'm always wondering if I'm just switching sides each stroke. On the other hand, grinding the burr back off can be tricky, sometimes it's very difficult depending on the steel and heat treat. If you end up not taking the burr off all the way, as you pointed out above, you end up with a fragile edge which disappears on you quickly.

But the most important issue for me is, I never got a blade screaming, frighteningly sharp -- even on the Sharpmaker -- until I read Juranitch's book and switched to the burr method. But I do think it's trickier to master.

Anyway, I learned something here. Next time someone using the burr method is having problems, I'll switch 'em over to your way and see what happens. Thanks!

Joe
 
Joe - There are many things that John Juranich and I agree on, but not everything. Let me know what happens.

sal
 
One of the reasons the burr method doesn't work so well is that it depends on the user knowing how to determine when to stop. If you don't know what a burr feels/looks like then you will have problems. On the other hand if you tell them to sharpen for a specific number of strokes that turns out to be high enough for the grinding to reach the edge there is no need for any judgement. The problem here is that the number of strokes depends on the steel in the knife, the heat treat and of course assumes the bevels match.

If I followed Sal's advise on a couple of the highly wear resistant steels I have when the knives are really blunt it would make no difference to the edge as it takes a lot more than that to remove the required amount of metal. That is one of the reasons that people complain about "stainless" blades being harder to sharpen. It takes more strokes to grind the metal off than plain high-carbon blades that are usually tempered in the mid fifties.

-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 16 December 1999).]
 
Well, I don't have my 204 video or instruction manual by my desk (there are limits to my knife knutiness), but I vaguely recall a suggestion in one (or both) of those to repeat a step if you didn't get the desired result. Hence, if you do 20+20 on the corner and flats of the grey stone and it does not cut paper, then repeat.

Likewise with the white stones and testing with shaving, tho I think the grey stones are more critical to getting the edge close to "burr-city".

In that sense, the 204 is not really asking for a fixed number of strokes. You should be able to literally take a bar of steel and repeat the grey stone step till the edge cuts paper (hopefully before the next ice age), then proceed to the whites.

Each method eventually gets to the goal of finding the edge.

------------------
Longden Loo - Ventura, CA
Technology's the answer, what's the question?

 
In that sense, the 204 is not really asking for a fixed number of strokes. You
should be able to literally take a bar of steel and repeat the grey stone step till the
edge cuts paper (hopefully before the next ice age), then proceed to the whites.
Click to expand...

Longden,

To some extent, I think it's a problem of expectations. If you read directions "if you are not satisfied, repeat the process again", how many times would you repeat before you thought something was wrong? Twice? Three times? Five times? On a knife that has its edge angle much greater than 20 degrees per side, it can take half an hour to re-profile -- you probably have to repeat 100 times! At that point, I wonder if the user won't simply think he's doing something wrong and give up.

Even if you're not talking about a reprofile, just a very dull edge on a very wear-resistant steel, you can still be talking about enough repetitions to make the user doubt himself pretty quick. On the other hand, if he reads "keep going 'til you get a burr, and use a magic marker to see how close you are", he can see how close he's come, and he knows exactly when he's there by feel.

For that reason, I think the instructions to the 20-strokes-per-side method should perhaps set some strong expectations. Like, when we say "repeat", you could be repeating once, or ten times, or a hundred times -- just don't get frustrated, and use a magic marker to see how close you are. That might help dial it in. Luckily, Spidey seemed to do just fine on the 20 strokes method.

Joe
 


Hey Sal, maybe it would be best to see if you could help me...I sent in a bent ceramic rod that came with my 204 well over a month ago and have been told by Customer Service more than once that the new one is in the mail,(first time was almost 3 weeks ago!)...Im still waiting. Could you check into this for me? I've been using the one that came with my old version Sharpmaker, but if I didn't have that, I really would have been out of luck!
frown.gif
If you have any questions you can ask Angela.




------------------
~Keith~
"War to the knife and knife to the hilt"

 
Joe - In the video. the directions are more specific, suggesting that one stays on the corner of the gray stone, regardless of strokes, until it will "catch 'your fingerrnail or the plastic base withj the blade held "at an angle".

Keith - Will look into that.

sal
 
If you are telling them to sharpen until some point is reached, that basically is the burr method. One of the reasons I like to describe the burr method to someone that is learning how to sharpen is that it gets them to think about and understand what they are doing. Once they understand exactly what they are trying to do (lower the edge bevels until they meet, a burr being a clear sign of this), you usually never have to explain it to them again.


-Cliff
 
I use the 'burr' method with my 203, and I let the blade tell me when the edge is done. The 'sings' while you're making a stroke, and when it hits the same note all the way through the stroke, and gides smoothly through the entire stroke, I check for the burr along the whole edge. It's usually ready to switch sides at that point. The second side is even more obvious as the butt is really off key until you grind it off. Then alternating on the white stones until I get a smooth feel and a soft consistent tone. Keeping the blade vertical with the 'stiff wrist' that Sal mentioned is also very important to getting that straight razor edge you want. If you move around alot, it's more like free-handing on a bench stone (when you can't hold a consistent angle like me).

I'm kind of a perfectionist when it comes to my sharpening, something my wife has no respect for. I cringe when she cuts on plates, drops kitchen knives in the sink, ....




------------------
E. Larson
Edmonds, WA


 
Cliff
(lower the edge bevels until they meet, a burr being a clear sign of this)
Click to expand...
Sal's fingernail "catch" seems a likewise clear sign that the bevels have met, right? Or do you think the burr is more distinctive?

Joe
To some extent, I think it's a problem of expectations. If you read directions "if you are not satisfied, repeat the process again", how many times would you repeat before you thought something was wrong? Twice? Three times? Five times? On a knife that has its edge angle much greater than 20 degrees per side, it can take half an hour to re-profile -- you probably have to repeat 100 times! At that point, I wonder if the user won't simply think he's doing something wrong and give up.
Click to expand...
That was my experience exactly, but it didn't differ using either Sal's method or the burr method. In either case, I was taking a long time on some dull knives and, in the case of the burr method, I may have been sloppy enough to remove the burr on a badly angled stroke, and so kept on going (at least 1/2 hour). It might be useful to use both tests, feeling for the burr and if that fails, try 'catching' on the fingernail. The burr may be easier to feel, but if it's accidentally removed, the 'catch' will still reveal the edge.

I totally agree on the expectation thing. On many of my earlier knives, it took much longer than I expected, and you're right, I did give up more than once. Now I know it's all about persistence (me vs the steel).

Maybe BF should provide knut-wannabees with a standard issue dulled blade to sharpen as an initiation rite, to teach them how fast to expect an edge to form. Like Daniel-san on "Karate Kid" ....... "stroke one, stroke two ... breath in, breath out".
smile.gif
 
ELarson, when my blades start talking to me, it's time to put them away and take a nice long rest
smile.gif


Besides, I've got bad ears ... maybe I should let the rest of my music-oriented family take over the sharpening duties.
 
I think one of reasons that people have more trouble sharpening stainless knives it that the burr is less pronounced. I notice when I sharpen wood chisels and planes that the burr is much more pronounced. Nearly everything that I have read on sharpening planes and chisel involve raising a burr. You need more sensitivity with stainless steel to feel the burr and some may just be missing it.
 
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