Usual Suspects Unite - A Challenge to the Disgruntled

See2 · Feb 17, 2001

You're a sick, sick man, Hollister.

Don Rearic · Feb 17, 2001

Originally posted by FK:
Don Rearic,
One response and I will go away.

1. I wanted to test the wave opening concept first hand. Again as stated, tried it and was underimpressed. I face a threat, then why use a knife that is designed to open by moving it in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION? You must overcome the inertia of your knife and arm moving to the rear and reverse direction to bring the weapon towards the threat.

2. I prefer to use the disk opener on the commander blade. The knife is thrust forward and opened, not moved to the rear and reverse direction to the front as with the wave feature. I would have purchased the commander with or without the wave notch. The reputation was this knife is heavy duty, tough and well constructed. My preference is disk or Spyderco hole, just a personal thing. Many users pound the crap out of a liner lock by snaping the blade open several hundred times a day, then complain about the lockup travel and loose stop pin. Why abuse your tools then complain about what a POS this knife company produces. Nothing to do with scrambled eggs or understanding the mechanics of wave opening.

As Ross T. pointed out, you can Spear a rushing attacker with your opposite elbow if they rush, the Wave Opening then becomes a counterbalance to that movement in a way. Sort of like a chambering of the fist.

We can cross some lines and discuss what particular ideologies with regard to Edged Weapons and Unarmed H2H are driving our individual Self-defense strategies, that would be a better exchange then simply condemning the Wave Opening. You speak in absolutes, that because it does not work for your particular ideology, that the Wave sucks. I disagree.

If you have reviewed some of Jim Grover's material on Unarmed H2H as well as Bob Kasper's Kni-Com material, something interesting shines through and maybe it is only me...

They are both friends and associates in various endeavors, but the High Guard that they both use is very similar to some forms of Pentjak Silat I have seen.

That would be, edged weapon chambered on strong side hip, using the fingernails of that weapon-bearing hand as a felt index [muscle memory] on the seam of the pants in that area. The offhand is open and high, elbow tucked in and the fingertips of those outstretched fingers resting near the cheek bone on that side of the face.

This is a very natural body attitude to assume when you have a threat...you need only raise that offside elbow [to "spear"], and for Law Enforcement Personnel or people in the Protection Business...they will immediately be able to do this as they are very familiar with assuming the Interview Stance, and this is that, but when you have a verifiable threat.

Early on, back in the summer and fall of 1998 when I was writing alot about the Wave Opening on the then new Commander, alot of people were calling it a gimmick...that the drawing an opening could not be performed under stress...

I was quick to point out then as I am now...the Drawing of a Commander and the desired result, meaning the Wave engages and the knife is opened...is a matter of Training and Muscle Memory.

If we could use a handgun/holster analogy in this instance, perhaps that would be more illustrative of what I am trying to say.

Drawing the Commander to engage the Wave is a learned movement. Much like a new Police Officer learning how to use a "rocker" or a "twist" motion-based retention holster.

Except there is no superfluous movement involved with deliberately thumbing open anything, depressing a button or anything like that, once the Draw is learned and retained, that's it.

You will never hear me say that other folding knives are not useful for Self-defense, you will see me say that the Commander is the fastest. If it is not for you, so be it. But don't speak in absolutes because you personally do not like it or don't think it will work. Maybe it is not for you.

3. Nothing was stated about opening in pocket with commander. Mine had very poor dedent pressure to hold the blade closed, a problem waiting to happen due to poor design and QC period. In pocket, in handling when out of pocket or whatever, I just did not like the blade swinging open so easily.

FK

If your intent was not to put forth the idea that the Commander could accidentally open in the pocket, then what is the concern? Your stated concern then becomes that you don't like the fact that it can open so easily... OK... OK?

Some stupid, liberal "News Magazine" that specializes in "Hit Pieces" on Guns and whatnot once did an "Expose'" on the Glock and Accidental Discharges...

There was an interesting quote from Massad Ayoob on the range during that show...

"The great strength of the Glock is that it is easy to shoot. And the great weakness of the Glock is, it is easy to shoot."

It matters not if you like Ayoob, that is not my point, what my point is...

Perhaps the Commander and similar knives that are opened via a Wave are Professional Tools for certain people, much in the way a 1911-style auto, including a Browning Hi-Power, H&K P7 and a Glock is... The great thing about these handguns are, they are fast and effective. So is the Commander.

All of the resultant hand-wringing about the Commander not being safe enough, or the Draw being prone to misfire, etc., then should be examined in that light.

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"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.

FK · Feb 17, 2001

Don Rearic & ROSANGHAL,
After reading your replys carefully, I agree it is all about experience and training. I never worked with the wave, only tried it briefly and dismissed the concept quickly. You gentlemen are very enthuastic and have obviously trained for years with the wave concept.

I may purchase another commander and revisit the learning curve.

Regards,
FK

John Hollister · Feb 17, 2001

Don and Ross, couldn't have said it better myself.

John

ROSANGHAL · Feb 17, 2001

Originally posted by John Hollister:
Yeh, actually I do, but it would probably deploy when you pulled it out.

I knew YOU would know where you could shower with one Commander concealed! i DON'T PLAY THAT WAY (anymore)

Wife caught me trying that in the shower and she said if she saw that again i wouldn't be allowed to play with my knives anymore

Originally posted by FK:
Don Rearic & ROSANGHAL,
After reading your replys carefully, I agree it is all about experience and training. I never worked with the wave, only tried it briefly and dismissed the concept quickly. You gentlemen are very enthuastic and have obviously trained for years with the wave concept.

I may purchase another commander and revisit the learning curve.

Cool FK if you do and you have any questions or want to share any insight to something you may learn while training with the Commander i hope you share it with us.

i'm no expert and won't claim to be but i love to train like a madman and train like i might need to use it someday and pray i never have too. But i would be happy to share info with anybody on stuff i've learned along the way.

Don R. did you see that Mr. Grover has opened a facility in Virgina? I plan on paying him a visit there and training some. It's called the CRUCIBLE and i was pointed in that direction by Gary Greco. Have you been there yet?

Oh and excellent post Don. i wish i could have said it as well and as informative as you did....... Show-off bastid

Moeman that's the same experience i've had with Mr. Emerson. Had one problem with a Raven and he fixed it right away and had it back to me lickity split. All others have never failed me.

See2...... You've been here how long and you're just now realizing that John is a sick man? You better escape Mass. now b/c that law is slowly affecting your senses. Either that or get a date and go across state lines

Next thing you know See2 will say "ROSANGHAL can't you be serious at all in one whole post????" OR "ROSANGHAL your a pervert"

Ross T.

Don Rearic · Feb 18, 2001

I just hope I did not piss "nyeti" off with some of my humor. I just find all of the negativity somewhat troubling.

It appears as though he wants to split for awhile because of the low grade of posts as of late.

I hope I was not a part of that. I was merely trying to state the obvious. There are the complainers...and believe me, I can complain when I feel like I have been ripped or doinked by someone...

Yet, there are so many excellent knives coming from this company...

I also know, from alot of time on this medium that there are people that have nothing better to do than jump on a bashing bandwagon from that General Forum.

To go in the General Forum and solicit detractors and complainers to come in here is more worthy of rec.dot.knives than this medium.

------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.

ROSANGHAL · Feb 18, 2001

Yeah i saw nyeti's post to and i'm hoping my humor didn't drive him off either

Ross T.

rfrost · Feb 18, 2001

I think the best thing to do with these trolls is to just IGNORE them. As soon as someone posts in "defense", that's all they need to twist the knife a little more. We don't need to "defend" Emerson or his knives. IMHO, Ernie's reputation, AND his knives, speak for themselves. Those who have problems or complaints need to contact EKI at eknives@aol.com directly, not defile our Forum with their crap.

Many of you will remember the big war over at KFC concerning Mad Dog knives. Do we want to end up like that? It was truely a sad, sad thing to see the insults and accusations that got tossed back and forth.

Don, no offense meant, but I'm afraid you got caught up in that a little here (as humerous as your responses were!!), and it only prompted "jc" to keep annoying us with lame-a$$ whiner posts! So just ignore those annoying posts, no matter what they have for content. The trolls may not go away mad, but they WILL GO AWAY!

Lets get back to some killer Emerson talk here and let the trolls take their business elsewhere.

--Robert

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Usual Suspect

RFrost5746@excite.com -- My Collection

John Hollister · Feb 18, 2001

These things run in cycles. Trolls pop up and Trolls go away. It happens on all the forums. That's how they get thier kicks.

Nyeti is a great guy. Very well grounded. Trust me here guys, I don't think it was responses specifically that caused him to bow out. But feeding these guys may have contributed to it. When all the BS is over, he'll be back.

Robert's right and I've said it before, don't feed them and they go away. Period. Remember that they are feeding off the reactions they get from the members of the forum. At this point "jc" could claim his Commander turned blue and exploded and I wouldn't give a . . . care.

You can lead a Jackass to water . . . .

Remember a couple of months ago when the comment was made about how this forum seems to be different from all the others . . . I'd like to see it return to that.

Ignore the Trolls and they will go away

John

Don Rearic · Feb 18, 2001

I agree up to a point, but a certain "one" is invading more than complaint threads now. Which means infestation...

------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.

See2 · Feb 19, 2001

I remember a somewhat recent post where everything degraded into I'll kick your a$$... no I'll kick YOUR a$$... oh yeah? COme over here and say that... and on it went. The offender got banned, everyone who cared about anyone else here apologized, and that was that. When suspects start bailing, the "tourists" get what the were after. We need to weather the storm, ride all the negative sh*t out, and just get back to what we were doing - enjoying our knives, and each others company. I consider all of you my friends - which if you think about it is a pretty rare thing, since I've never met any of you. But, after being here for a time, and seeing how all of you "think" through your writings, I feel I've come to know you all pretty well... for names on a screen.

That being said, lets get back to making each other laugh, making each other jealous (yeah.. I see you custom owners out there), and making each other think "cool!" It's high time all the negativity went by the wayside.

Chris