SharpBits
Gold Member
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2002
- Messages
- 4,429
Soon, I hope!
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Very poor edge retention when cutting cardboard
- Thread starter Zenturio
- Start date
Here is a video of WE knife made of s35vn steel. I can't say how close this steel is to s30v but I suspect there is not a big difference.
According to 'knifesteelnerds' s30v has better edge retention.
Anyway, the knife went through 108 feet of cardboard before it stopped shaving.
Outpist76 has lots of cardboard cutting tests. Watch them and compare with your test.
So, what's wrong? You have some extremely nasty cardboard or Spyderco messed up the heat treatment or there is something about your sharpening?
According to 'knifesteelnerds' s30v has better edge retention.
Anyway, the knife went through 108 feet of cardboard before it stopped shaving.
Outpist76 has lots of cardboard cutting tests. Watch them and compare with your test.
So, what's wrong? You have some extremely nasty cardboard or Spyderco messed up the heat treatment or there is something about your sharpening?
T
TheOne45
Thanks for the reference.
I do not think that Spyderco did bad heat treats for both Shamans I own.
Outpost76 is using single layer cardboard as far as I remember, I used heavy double layer cardboard. Outpost76 also says he is using all KME diamond progressions up to 1500grit and afterwards different stropping stages, which I do not do.
But I do not know, maybe there is a problem with my sharpening for cardboard cutting. I generally do not have any problems regarding edge retention except with cardboard. There is a huge variety in cardboard ingredients I guess. I really do not know if there is something I am doing wrong or if it is the S30V in general in combination with cardboard cutting.
Others say that my result is legit.
Thanks and BR,
Oliver
Thanks for the reference.
I do not think that Spyderco did bad heat treats for both Shamans I own.
Outpost76 is using single layer cardboard as far as I remember, I used heavy double layer cardboard. Outpost76 also says he is using all KME diamond progressions up to 1500grit and afterwards different stropping stages, which I do not do.
But I do not know, maybe there is a problem with my sharpening for cardboard cutting. I generally do not have any problems regarding edge retention except with cardboard. There is a huge variety in cardboard ingredients I guess. I really do not know if there is something I am doing wrong or if it is the S30V in general in combination with cardboard cutting.
Others say that my result is legit.
Thanks and BR,
Oliver
So; looks like it is at least one of the things I wrote - nasty cardboard
I wonder why you don't do a cutting test with a ''normal'' cardboard as Outpost76 is using? Then you can compare the results and see if the only problem is cardboard or there is also something else.
I just sharpen my EDC knives the way as I usually do and use them to cut whatever I need to cut.
I don't do progressions ... usually one diamond plate (#240, #320 or #600 - depends on my mood) and a strop (usually 3um or 6um).
I went through all your posts and couldn't find nothing about double layer cardboard. Now you decided to mention this after 4 pages.
I wonder why you don't do a cutting test with a ''normal'' cardboard as Outpost76 is using? Then you can compare the results and see if the only problem is cardboard or there is also something else.
So there you go. The only logical conclusion would be there is something about the cardboard you are cutting.
I don't know about 'sharpening for cardboard cutting'. Is there a special way to sharpen for cardboard?
I just sharpen my EDC knives the way as I usually do and use them to cut whatever I need to cut.
I don't do progressions ... usually one diamond plate (#240, #320 or #600 - depends on my mood) and a strop (usually 3um or 6um).
That's just crazy talk! (Just kidding...me too...I save my $$$$$ blades for cutting shingles and ripping up asphalt.)
Alternating passes is another way to further minimize a burr or avoid one altogether depending on how pedantic you want to be about defining what a burr is. But I guess that's not realistic with most guided systems because you have to keep turning the knife over...
So what exactly is the problem?
Do you do freehand at all? Have you ever tried carrying a pocket stone for quick touch ups? If you can manage it, then you might be happier with that.
SwissHeritageCo
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2021
- Messages
- 3,118
Outpost76 also tested ganzo's D2 (62.5hrc) at some obscene amount of cuts that beat out quite a few supersteels so who really knows.
A small piece of flat thin cardboard is a bit different than taking down a box in my experience.
Then again maybe we're all just really shit at completely removing burrs. I myself had trouble with it to, so I started micro beveling, even to the point of ruining by beautiful convex
Well, Outpist76 is using pieces of thin cardbord and counts cuts till the knife does not shave and slice a paper. 100 feet of sliced cardboard is a 100 feet no matter if you cut a box or pieces of cardboard.
If you are doing tests you choose what to cut (like thin cardboard in the case of Outpost76) and then you test all knives on the same cardboard. That's the only way to compare results.
Some other guys are using same sisal rope for all tests or something else..... for example special paper with Catra tester.
Like I wrote before...
why dont you use the same thin cardboard and do some cutting tests? Then you can compare your results with Outpost76 results.
Or try it with the same sisal rope as Cedric&Ada is using and compare the results.
Only this way you will know if your edge (or steel) is OK or not.
"Shaving sharp" is a somewhat relative term, so not that useful in my opinion. You can shave hair off your arm with a fairly dull knife if you apply enough pressure, which is a completely different level compared to an edge that will shave with just the weight of the blade.
It's only true unless it isn't. Over the course of shipping, boxes get dirty, beat up, creased, damp, sticky, or even oily. This creates inconsistencies which can affect cutting.
Different boxes also vary in thickness and consistency. Some are coated on the outside, or soaked in wax to make them harder. I could go to the store and buy a flat stack of cardboard file boxes, and cutting them up would be different from slicing up a bunch of random boxes from the back room of a grocery store or some leftover boxes from various online orders.
Huh; that's true ... good point.
I have both knives in m4 as well. The tenacious blows the shaman away as far as cutting through things like cardboard. This is to be expected. What I also noticed is what is mentioned in the heading on this post. Edge retention. The tenacious m4 holds an edge noticeably longer than the m4 shaman. Thus may be solely because of the different blafe geometries.......but I wonder. The m4 tenacious has also become my go to edc. I use it at work constantly and carry it everywhere
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2023
- Messages
- 540
That flashlight trick does indeed work! My wife just bought me a new k390 endela for father's day and I sharpened it the first time, needing to sharpen the last 1/16" up against the ricasso since factory sharpened with a wheel didn't hit that. Even with diamonds this took a bit to do. It was really helpful to shine a light and see when I finally got all of the blade near the heel apexed and a burr. It was tricky to confirm by feeling. Also I started deburring and using the light again found one spot not fully deburred in the middle of the blade. Definitely going to be using a light to help out going forward.
Yeah it's really neat. There's definitely a huge benefit to actually seeing a burr over just finding it by touch. Feeling something and actually seeing it are two completely different things.
The problem I'm having with it is that I can definitely feel burrs which are small enough that they don't show up with a flashlight. I was wondering before if this was just because I have a really good sense of touch or if this was normal. That's why I asked before to hear other people's experiences. Unfortunately nobody gave me a reply to that question. It seems like judging from your post that I actually might have an abnormally good ability to feel a burr. Or maybe it's just that you aren't confident enough in your sense of touch, so you are doubting yourself without the flashlight?
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2012
- Messages
- 1,594
I use the flashlight trick more on a guided sharpener since the knife is locked in place and it’s not as simple to flip the knife back-and-forth. Plus the edge is facing you, which makes it a bit tougher to run your thumb across.
Freehand I can feel a very tiny burr even with a wet thumb, and can really feel & hear it when I wipe the blade off with a towel. I will usually double check the edge visually with a light to make sure I didn’t miss anything after I can no longer feel a burr.
Freehand I can feel a very tiny burr even with a wet thumb, and can really feel & hear it when I wipe the blade off with a towel. I will usually double check the edge visually with a light to make sure I didn’t miss anything after I can no longer feel a burr.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2023
- Messages
- 540
I usually can feel it as much as see it but I had a spot the stone wasn't touching yet that was a little harder to feel the absence in that one spot vs the whole edge. With the light I could see the missing spot and kept going. I will most likely use feel for the most part and maybe confirm with a light or check for absence after deburring off my first stone with the light
One other trick I've tried a little is dragging the edge like an edge trailing stroke across my fingernail. A burr will scrape off nail material, probably not foolproof, if the burr was well stood up.
One other trick I've tried a little is dragging the edge like an edge trailing stroke across my fingernail. A burr will scrape off nail material, probably not foolproof, if the burr was well stood up.
SwissHeritageCo
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2021
- Messages
- 3,118
Turns out sharpening is easy, it's the whole burr removal that's the pain in the ass.
Could you clarify this a little? I can't tell whether you are talking about a chip or a spot without a burr, or just a spot which hasn't apexed yet.
Keep in mind that there are other methods to identify irregular spots along the edge.
I can see how it could definitely be a great way to quickly train your ability to identify a burr by touch, at least up to the point when the light is no longer revealing a very tiny burr which is too small to cause a visible reflection.
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2011
- Messages
- 929
Perhaps you need a brighter light, in a dimly lit room?
I recommend using something like an Olight Baton 4. It has 1300 lumens on full brightness.
I agree however that a burr will eventually be too small to see, even with a bright light. My approach is to rely on the flashlight method to find and remove all visible burrs. Finally I run it one last time over the strop, and call it good.
Last edited:
Indeed.
I occasionally check the edge after stropping with my 60x loupe. If I see the burr with this loupe it's most of the time so small I can't feel it or see it with my bare eyes no matter how strong the light is.
Lately I just do ''wood cutting burr test'' after stropping .... if my knife cuts news print cross grain after this test I call it good enough. If not I strop some more.
As I could see from this forum the size of a burr ... or should I say a burr free edge is a very relative matter. Looks like it
mostly depends on the method someone is using to detect a burr.