VG-10 steel.

The Crucible CPM high vanadium steels don't form the large carbides due to the nature of their solidification process in a vacuum chamber and vacuum welding which keeps particles small and stops the oxidation that occurs with sintered powder metals.
The fine grained texture gives added strength to the steel. S30V is much like D2 chemically, but with added Cr-2%, V-3% and Mo-1%, yet is stronger due to the CPM process not building large carbides to act as crack tip instigation and propagation sites.
 
Hi Shgeo. I stand corrected. A large amount of vanadium carbides, not larger in size.

Also, S30V contains nitrogen. Spec calls for up to 2%. Crucible says they average over 1%.

sal
 
Hi Sal,

you are probably talking about 0.2 and 0.1 % nitrogen. 1-2 % would be too much.

I read somewhere that nitrogen acts effectively like an additional carbon - so that 0.1 % nitrogen counts like about 1 % carbon (roughly, I don't remember exact numbers). The article I read was about X-15 TN steel, I think a knife in question was a German Orca.

Franco
 
Hi Franco. Yes, you are correct. Spec for the steel is .20, Crucible says they generally get over .10. sorry 'bout that. Need to proof more slowly.

It is my understanding that Nitrogen essentially replaces the carbon atom in the steel matrix. X15tn uses .21 Nitrogen but a very low .42 carbon. The theory is that the Nitrogen will do the job of the carbon in edge retention but not have the corrosion problem due to the lower carbon content. Busse knives use a Nitrogen based steel as well. H-1 uses .1 Nitrogen and a very low .15 carbon.

Crucible tried to find the "ideal" combination of C & N in S30V.

All of these materials seem to have different results in different areas.

Hitachi's ZDP-189 packs a whoppin' 3.0 carbon and 20% chrome and little else.

sal
 
Originally posted by Sal Glesser
We are currently testing a run of Chinooks that we made from VG-10. Maybe we'll use one for a contest?


sal
Click to expand...

Do I read well? A VG-10 Chinook?
 
Hi Dialex. We made 23 Chinooks in VG-10 to test the steel in our own facility. We used one for a contest for Children's Hospital, one for the museum and we're planning on offering the balance to our collector club.

sal
 
In the case of powder metallurgy,Vanadium carbide is good fine.
What i wanted to point out is Unbalance of hardness between vanadium carbide and matrix.Ando also it is low efficiency of retention in spite of not so high sharp edge keeping ability.
 
S30V holds an edge better than ATS 34, is stronger (4 times the transverse strength according to Crucible Steel) and is more stain resistant.
 
The nitrogen replaces the carbon without "stealing" the chrome, thus stain resistance.
 
Originally posted by japansteel
?@your thinkin is now oldfashion.
Click to expand...

Well, I'm dumbfounded. Dazed and confused. Are you saying that S30V does NOT holds its edge better than ATS-34? I'm sorry, but while I cannot directly address S30V in daily casual use, I can address ATS-34, and say that it is ... well, let me just say, "nothing special," when compared to such steels as VG10 even (which is where we started). While I will never again just accept someone else's word that something like S30V or S60V is a wonder steel, I can state what I have observed myself. Unless I am totally misunderstanding you, you are making statements about ATS-34 that do not bear up against my experience with that steel! :confused:
 
Japansteel,
From some of your comments, it would seem that you confuse Crucible's particle metal process with the older sintering of powders. If this is the case then I am not the only one out of date. ATS 34 has never seen the day that it could compete with S30V. Check out the specifications from Crucible.
Damasteel also produces a superior product to ATS34, RWL 34 by the particle metal process.
 
Part of what you're experiencing could be due to the Lum Chinese edge geometry also. It is a wide full flat grind blade. The edge is very thin and mine came scary sharp from the factory.
 
Wow, zombie thread alert! - great historical reading, though. I especially liked the part in bold red below, which is from 2003 (!). By the way, Nutnfancy's YouTube video on the Spyderco 2010 SHOT booth has a great interview with Ed Schempp in which he talks about why he likes VG-10.

Sal Glesser said:
Hi Japansteel,

Is it true that major tendency is VG-10?

At this time, yes, in the USA marketplace and we are also seeing the tendency in Europe. It seems to be the tendency in the Western world to compare all and seek the "best". Then the "best" gets an unfair share of the attention. In America, more "horsepower" or "cutting power" is the greatest measure of the "best" in knife steels.

In Nippon, we have Maguro, Tako & Uni. "All good" just different". This is an attitude that I prefer and try to teach. Each steel has advantages and disadvantages. I have thought about starting a "steel club" making "mules" ("test knives") of the many steels so it would be possible to see the beauty in all steels, but it is a large undertaking for one with little spare time.
Why do US-people like high vanadium steels?

High Vanadium steels have large vanadium carbides that feel sharp and cut aggressively. There is also good abrasion resistance. Also, a certain part of the attraction may be in advertising and opinions of the users which are very influencial. I have seens "fad" in Nippon happen very quickly such as the ladies coloring their hair European style. I think much information in the knife industry in America moves in that direction.

What do you think about Crucible who likes vanadium?

Crucible is an old steel manufacturing company that tries hard to be at the front of technology and improvement, much like Hitachi. They are easy to work with, probably because they are a smaller foundry. We do testing for them in our lab on newer materials. We have tested steel with 15% vanadium. Very good abrasion resistance, very difficult to cut and grind. Crucible sends representatives to the knife shows, answering questions and propmoting their company.

Hitachi has not been properly promoted in the USA. Perhaps with ZDP-189 we might have an opportunity to do so. Or if you and Hitachi are able to come up with a unique new steel, we can do the same.

sal
Click to expand...
 
I sharpened a VG10 blade yesterday - it was easy.
I find it much harder to sharpen a blade made of ATS 34 or D2.
I used ceramic stones.
D2 is a bear to sharpen.
 
ROM831 said:
In day in/day out usage, I have had much better results with S30V over VG-10. This could be due to grinds though. My Millie has a <30 deg angle (thanks Sal) whereas the Endura was more like <40 somewhere.
Click to expand...

At risk of quoting myself, it is interesting seeing one's old posts from years before. I have since warmed up to VG-10, and also to much thinner edges, somewhere between 10-12 deg overall. One of the few threads worth reviving. Thanks
 
It's amazing how Sal had the idea for the Mule Team back in 2001, and how long it took to make that idea a reality. Good history lesson.
 
dsmegst said:
This is like a history lesson in blade steel adoption. Good read.
Click to expand...

I agree. It's funny for me, since these guys were talking about stuff at a time when when my knowledge of blade steels, and even basic chemistry, was pretty much nonexistent.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top