Victim or Rebel, a discussion

mamav

mamav

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Apr 23, 2003
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I never really put those 2 terms on opposit sides of a coin before, but a discussion today did just that.............so I thought I'd see if any of you guys had any thoughts, ideas, comments,or other interesting tidbits to add. Here's the scoop

Should a person have to change the way they dress, walk, talk, etc,etc etc to be accepted as a person?? In other words, should I (and I'm not necessarily talking about me, but maybe) have to wear makeup, earrings, rings, stiletto's, etc to be considered an intelligent, hard working, acceptable human?? The answer should be an obvious "HELL NO", but then if people don't hire me, accept me, want to associate with me, am I operating in a victim mentality or a rebel mentality??

It's hard to put this into writing, but I think you get the gist of what I'm saying. My opinion is that of course, there are situations that a person would have to wear a uniform or submit to certain rules, but I'm talking about in a general matter of going to the store, or a club, or a school etc. Make sense?? I think that a person should be judged by their character and work ethic and the way they live day to day, not by an outward appearance. Seems elementary to me, but my thoughts were challenged in this very way.

So what do you think?? Should make for some interesting comments even based on how old we are and where we grew up.:confused:
 
mamav said:
...The answer should be an obvious "HELL NO", but then if people don't hire me, accept me, want to associate with me, am I operating in a victim mentality or a rebel mentality?? ...
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"Should" is one thing...but nonetheless, not often the case.

As for rebel or victim...I guess it depends on if you enjoy the reactions you get.
 
l refused to wear a tie in my high school yearbook photo.

l refused to cut my hair for jobs.


Looking back, l don't regret it one bit, and had l done it, l would have never forgiven myself.
 
To me, the answer lies in why the person is dressing/acting differently. It will always be a manner of expression, but is it expressing one's true self as best as one knows how or is it making an expression to get a reaction from fellow humans?
 
Gin?

I always considered clothes as "costumes," especially when I did improv sets for business training for company.

But always, it was just a matter of course for me.

Whether we like it or not, judgements are made very quickly...from expressions on the face, to the posture, to the "costume" and how it is displayed.

So...should we judge the person...hell no...of course not.

Do we? Of course, daily...walking down the street, looking for dangers or just being aware of our environments.

Whether it is punk or designer...clothes don't "make" the person, but they give an indication of that person's attitude towards SOME of the things in life.
 
"The nail that protrudes will be hammered down."

This imperfect world does judge a person by their appearance. No one will ever get to know the goodness in the heart of someone with an obscenity tatooed on their forehead, for example. Or hire them- even for telemarketing.

Some conformity is necessity in society. Some situational latitude is allowed.

A woman scientist has to wear a lab coat, not a bikini. Whether she thinks of herself as a rebel, or misunderstood, or repressed etc. is irrelevant. You are only "free" to do what you want within limits.

Unless you want to live in a van - down by the river!

Mike
 
Of course, we can all see this. The scary thing is that counselors are telling kids that they cannot express themselves, that they need to conform to the norm. I am a little concerned about that. It sounds like Hitler Youth or something. Maybe starts "innocently", but can escalate quickly. Also victim, to me, denotes a place of weakness.........I was weaker than he who committed the offense over me. So in any way to think about it.......rebel, maybe, victim..............don't think so. But then i might be wrong:rolleyes:
 
Funny thing too........our country was founded by a bunch of non-conformist, rebels...............so we definitely need to be putting down any of this rebellion before it gets out of hand:confused: Maybe, just maybe it is another way to control the masses?? Just thoughts??
 
mamav said:
Should a person have to change the way they dress, walk, talk, etc,etc etc to be accepted as a person?? In other words, should I (and I'm not necessarily talking about me, but maybe) have to wear makeup, earrings, rings, stiletto's, etc to be considered an intelligent, hard working, acceptable human?? The answer should be an obvious "HELL NO", but then if people don't hire me, accept me, want to associate with me, am I operating in a victim mentality or a rebel mentality??
Click to expand...

Well, in a job interview it is typically expected that one present themselves a certain way -- but once you actually get hired, you're under no obligation to pretend to be something you're not. As long as you show up on time, do an outstanding job, don't deliberately antagonize co-workers, and take a shower several times a week you're doing nothing wrong . . . of course, you cannot show up in curlers and a bathrobe unless it is "Casual Friday."

Unfortunately, too many people in our society are superficial materialistic sheep who judge based not only upon appearance, but upon what BRAND of clothing you wear, and how expensive your watch and cellphone are. As Tyler Durden said, "You are not your f**king khakis." If throwing away money on overpriced designer clothes & electric gadgets is a requirement for "fitting in" to some sheeple clique (as well as agreeing with everything the head sheep sez to assure your continued inclusion), you've gotta ask yourself how important these peoples' opinion of you really is. After all, what is your general opinion of them?
 
mamav said:
Of course, we can all see this. The scary thing is that counselors are telling kids that they cannot express themselves, that they need to conform to the norm. I am a little concerned about that. It sounds like Hitler Youth or something. Maybe starts "innocently", but can escalate quickly. Also victim, to me, denotes a place of weakness.........I was weaker than he who committed the offense over me. So in any way to think about it.......rebel, maybe, victim..............don't think so. But then i might be wrong:rolleyes:
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Depends on the counselor!

I wish my daughter's counselor would counsel a bit more conformity!

Ad Astra, good post!

As I get older I find that I care less and less what others might think of me or how I look or what I think, how I dress, etc.

I feel more and more confident in my thoughts, beliefs and person. I don't have to justify, I don't have to explain, I just am, the way I am, and it ain't to make an impression but rather to be comfortable in my own skin.

That's probably the difference between an old fogey who toots in public, and a kid who wants all kinds of piercings.. for the fogey, it's a matter of practicality, for the kid it's a "statement"....

Andy
 
Some people dress down on purpose, some dress up on purpose.

To me, the authenticity thing is big. Do people dress up out of respect, or to be something they are not? Do people dress down to blend in, to be who they are, or to offend?

I like to think that people I would want to get to know will look past initial appearances. It has largely worked out, but I have felt the reality of being judged by my mode of dress.

When I go to church, I wear one of my nice shirts, slacks, and my best bolo tie. I don't own a suit right now. (That fits!)

To go and buy a suit, and wear a tie to church would not be me. I have strong convictions about dressing up for church. I'm not against it, but I can't see that it could be thought of as mandatory.

Sorry for the drift!

Hypocrite that I am, I would dress up for a court appearance, or to meet the president, attend a funeral, etc.

It is not a bad thing to take into account the feelings and expectations of others.

Take care,

Tom
 
I'm 62 years old and I just about live my life in jeans and a polo shirt. That being said I also recognize that there are times when I need to get dressed up (weddings, job interviews, dinner with your prospective in-laws) but to have to change your normal daily appearance just so you will fit in HECK NO.
 
I wear shorts and a T-shirt to work every day, rain or shine (it's California, after all). The days that I get grief are the days (OK, day) when I wear long pants. I'm a very well paid software engineer, and 55.

That being said, remember that making a statement (behavior, dress, body modification) that is "too" (defined on page 113 of this book) extreme, means that the people around you need to make an effort (different for everyone) to look past that statement to what you really are. You are forcing them to "work". Sometimes that's too much, with whatever else is going on in their lives, either at work or home.

Why should they be forced to make that accommodation for you?

This is only food for thought, not a suggestion/recommendation either way.
 
"Don't judge a book by its cover."

lf you were to meet me, at first glance you might appraise me as a liberal hippy kinda guy because l like tie dyes, l have long hair and l usually wear sandals this time of year.

And that's ok. l can dig it. l've been called worse.


But then you find out about my black Chevy truck, my 25+ firearms and my collection of literally hundreds of sharp & pointy objects, and my large wolfish dog... and how the tie dyes get swapped out for camo when me and the pup go out in the woods for most of the afternoon.
 
One can be both a rebel and a victim. My grandfather kissed ALL family on the lips every time he saw them. My uncle was very concerned that people ould think him gay. Pawpaw said "I'll kiss you when I want to kiss you and where I want to kiss you. Pawpaw built the second shopping center in the world. in 1929. He understood how not to be a victim of others' expectations. Al
 
a person should be judged by their ..... work ethic
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So one often hears said -- but I've long wondered why it isn't "what they actually do" rather than "work ethic" which counts. :confused:
No doubt there are lots of very dilligent secret policemen, high-pressure sales callers, corporate speculators and yardie drug-distributors in the world, whose "work ethic" as such could be beyond reproach -- but their wider ethical context within which that work-ethic exists might be a different matter entirely. :eek:
 
There was once what we would call a "Protestant" (a "Huguenot") who, given the opportunity to stop the religious wars by converting to the Roman church and becoming undisputed King of France, said "Paris is well worth a Mass." He was willing to give a certain the outward appearance and say certain things. The wars stopped, religious toleration had a short Spring (by decree of the King), and he is known to history, and to France, as "Good King Henry."

You ask about outward appearances and manners of speach, not inner values. If mere outward appearances and speach are not important, why would one care how one had to appear and speak to manage one's relationships with others? Greather the fools, they, to be so taken in.

Or are matters of dress and speech things of substance?

We all have to decide what it truly important to us to thrive in a world with no shortage of ill-headed, even mean-spirited, sorts.

(High heels? Hell no! They are inventions of misanthropes, and any doc will give you a letter saying they are ruled out on grounds of health.)
 
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