Virginia Ivory Ban Bill Defeated

[ncrockclimb]

Good post Mark. I have never seen mammoth ivory that looked anything like modern elephant and I can think of no reason why anyone would try to make modern look like prehistoric. But a number of people here have made it plain they could care less about any monetary loss to current property owners. The ends justify the means.

Actually, you make a great point. You, and the rest of the pro-ivory crowd could care less about logic and data. Your ends (making money off the ivory trade) justify the means (elephants becoming extinct).

Despite all Mark's protests, the USFW and numerous other groups working to eradicate the global illegal ivory industry say that it can be difficult to distinguish elephant ivory from mammoth ivory. Furthermore, smugglers use this similarity to their advantage. Numerous sources have been posted about this in this and the other ivory thread. But according to Mark, the person that makes his living selling ivory, everyone is lying except him.

 

[22-rimfire]

Ncrockclimb, you seem bitter when faced with logic and photo evidence relative to mammoth ivory (ancient ivory) versus modern elephant ivory. Pretty much a 6th grader could tell the difference with a little education and anything that slips through that review is probably not significant to the entire argument.

Nobody wants the African elephant to become extinct. I don't want that and I hope that efforts to stop poaching and illegal export from the African countries is stopped. But if the African elephant did become extinct, it would be a sad day to see another animal (especially one as large as the elephant) become extinct, but it would impact my life zero if it happened.

 

[Twindog]

Ncrockclimb, you seem bitter when faced with logic and photo evidence relative to mammoth ivory (ancient ivory) versus modern elephant ivory. Pretty much a 6th grader could tell the difference with a little education and anything that slips through that review is probably not significant to the entire argument.

This is absolutely untrue. We've posted the actual techniques required to tell the difference, and it is not easy. Takes special equipment. Requires multiple measurements of properly prepared samples of ivory taken at the outer parts of the tusk, which many knife handles don't show. Many knives cannot be tested at all without destructive testing, either DNA testing or carbon testing.

The whole point of Knife Rights' objection to the new bans is that it requires owners to prove that the ivory seized is not from modern elephants or even from elephants. Knife Rights rants about how private citizens cannot afford the appropriate tests to make these determinations, but thinks the government has the revenue to do these tests on a gazillion products its finds. It doesn't.

The Knife Rights' agenda is to ensure that no ban is effective, thereby supporting the trade of blood ivory.

 

[ncrockclimb]

No bitter at all. I rely on facts and data, which all point to some mammoth ivory being difficult to differentiate from elephant ivory. Again, this is documented. Mark found some mammoth ivory that looks different from elephant ivory. That does not mean that all mammoth ivory looks different from elephant ivory. In lieu of proof to the contrary (and Marks pics of samples he selected do not constitute proof), I continue to believe the USFW, all the legitimate elephant protection organizations and the numerous studies that state that mammoth ivory can be difficult to differentiate from elephant ivory.

 

[Mark Knapp]

Despite all Mark's protests, the USFW and numerous other groups working to eradicate the global illegal ivory industry say that it can be difficult to distinguish elephant ivory from mammoth ivory.

This is absolutely untrue. We've posted the actual techniques required to tell the difference, and it is not easy. Takes special equipment. Requires multiple measurements of properly prepared samples of ivory taken at the outer parts of the tusk, which many knife handles don't show. Many knives cannot be tested at all without destructive testing, either DNA testing or carbon testing.

You guys are amazing.
I could do 100 of them, if I showed the angles of Schreger lines in 100 pieces of mammoth ivory would you believe me that it's not that hard? 200? how many would it take?

 

[Sosa]

items would have to be destroyed in order to test them in that fashion. We already know that. This can go on and on but at the end of the day I dont invest in animal parts waiting for them to go extinct to cash in.

 

[fishface5]

The whole point of Knife Rights' objection to the new bans is that it requires owners to prove that the ivory seized is not from modern elephants or even from elephants. Knife Rights rants about how private citizens cannot afford the appropriate tests to make these determinations, but thinks the government has the revenue to do these tests on a gazillion products its finds. It doesn't.

Where does Kniferights say that? I didn't see it when I checked the site but maybe I missed it?
At least in Washington the issue of owners testing their ivory is moot, because it will be banned whether it's mammoth or elephant.
I think mammoth ivory trade shouldn't be banned. Keep the new ivory ban in place. If there is a question about whether an item is mammoth or ivory, the govt should have the burden of proof, as it does in any other civil or criminal case.

I don't recall from the other thread, but has there ever been a big bust of elephant ivory where the owners were actually pretending it was mammoth? Or is it all people sneaking in new ivory without attempting to disguise it as mammoth? Because the idea that poachers are able to somehow freely import new ivory into the US by pretending it's mammoth really doesn't make any sense on it's face. Anyone bringing in huge quantities of supposedly rare "core mammoth ivory" is going to attract major scrutiny of their product, including testing. If not legit they will be busted. Anyone who is a major retailer of "core mammoth ivory" will also invite scrutiny. Effective enforcement means looking for and busting those people, NOT robbing citizens of millions of dollars of property value simply as a "feel good" measure.

(for the record, I own one damascus folder with mammoth ivory handles that set me back $150, and some scraps ends I bought - for maybe $30 or less - for projects, like making a pendant for my girlfriend, so I'm not exactly heavily invested in the stuff).

 

[Mark Knapp]

This is absolutely untrue. We've posted the actual techniques required to tell the difference, and it is not easy. Takes special equipment. Requires multiple measurements of properly prepared samples of ivory taken at the outer parts of the tusk, which many knife handles don't show. Many knives cannot be tested at all without destructive testing, either DNA testing or carbon testing.

The whole point of Knife Rights' objection to the new bans is that it requires owners to prove that the ivory seized is not from modern elephants or even from elephants. Knife Rights rants about how private citizens cannot afford the appropriate tests to make these determinations, but thinks the government has the revenue to do these tests on a gazillion products its finds. It doesn't.

The Knife Rights' agenda is to ensure that no ban is effective, thereby supporting the trade of blood ivory.

No, you are actually, confusing two separate issues here. The Schreger lines are all about telling the difference between elephant ivory and mammoth, I've shown it's pretty easy to do. The carbon dating or DNA testing is about telling pre-act elephant from post-act elephant. Two entirely different things, you are mixing them up.

 

[Sidehill Gouger]

Where does Kniferights say that? I didn't see it when I checked the site but maybe I missed it?
At least in Washington the issue of owners testing their ivory is moot, because it will be banned whether it's mammoth or elephant.
I think mammoth ivory trade shouldn't be banned. Keep the new ivory ban in place. If there is a question about whether an item is mammoth or ivory, the govt should have the burden of proof, as it does in any other civil or criminal case.

I don't recall from the other thread, but has there ever been a big bust of elephant ivory where the owners were actually pretending it was mammoth? Or is it all people sneaking in new ivory without attempting to disguise it as mammoth? Because the idea that poachers are able to somehow freely import new ivory into the US by pretending it's mammoth really doesn't make any sense on it's face. Anyone bringing in huge quantities of supposedly rare "core mammoth ivory" is going to attract major scrutiny of their product, including testing. If not legit they will be busted. Anyone who is a major retailer of "core mammoth ivory" will also invite scrutiny. Effective enforcement means looking for and busting those people, NOT robbing citizens of millions of dollars of property value simply as a "feel good" measure.

(for the record, I own one damascus folder with mammoth ivory handles that set me back $150, and some scraps ends I bought - for maybe $30 or less - for projects, like making a pendant for my girlfriend, so I'm not exactly heavily invested in the stuff).

Excellent post!

 

[Twindog]

Where does Kniferights say that? I didn't see it when I checked the site but maybe I missed it?
At least in Washington the issue of owners testing their ivory is moot, because it will be banned whether it's mammoth or elephant.
I think mammoth ivory trade shouldn't be banned. Keep the new ivory ban in place. If there is a question about whether an item is mammoth or ivory, the govt should have the burden of proof, as it does in any other civil or criminal case.

So, the DOI knows there is unlikely to be a paper trail by which to prove yourself innocent. Any scientific analysis that can provide ironclad proof of antiquity costs so much that it is beyond the reach of the majority of ivory owners. Pretty much a Catch 22 for ivory owners and those who work or trade in ivory. You can't win, which appears to be their goal.
http://www.kniferights.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=251&Itemid=1

 

[22-rimfire]

It is my opinion that "iron clad" proof should not be required. Proof if such a law was passed should be a something a reasonable man would determine. Guilty until proven innocent is not the way in the US and I don't understand how even the pro-ban people can support such.

 

[RedLynx]

It is my opinion that "iron clad" proof should not be required. Proof if such a law was passed should be a something a reasonable man would determine. Guilty until proven innocent is not the way in the US and I don't understand how even the pro-ban people can support such.

As a pro-ban individual, I agree with you on this.

 

[Mark Knapp]

items would have to be destroyed in order to test them in that fashion. We already know that. This can go on and on but at the end of the day I dont invest in animal parts waiting for them to go extinct to cash in.

No, not really, most knives, very close to 100%, are made with mammoth ivory "bark" scales. In which case you just look at them, they look vastly different than elephant. Just Google "Mammoth ivory knives". Some knives with white ivory will be hard to tell but many have exposed end grain where you can see the Schreger lines.

In the case of white ivory works of art, they are pretty much already polished up, all you need to do is look for the Schreger lines. If you go to the local ivory places you were talking about earlier you should be able to see them. In fact, it is those lines that people look for when shopping for ivory that tell you you have genuine ivory. If it doesn't have lines, you don't have ivory.

As for your last statement in that post. Who is hording ivory till elephants become extinct so they can cash in? Seems like a poor bet to me.

 

[Mark Knapp]

As a pro-ban individual, I agree with you on this.

Hi Red, on page 8 of this thread I posted a description of how to tell elephant ivory from mammoth to show really how easily it can be done.

 

[craytab]

Hi Red, on page 8 of this thread I posted a description of how to tell elephant ivory from mammoth to show really how easily it can be done.

Staying out of the argument further here but I though I would give you a tip. When referencing a post, giving the page may not be relevant to everyone as any user can set the amount of posts displayed per page. For example, the post I am making right now, for me is on page 5. Much more accurate to supply the post number rather than page. FYI.

 

[RedLynx]

Hi Red, on page 8 of this thread I posted a description of how to tell elephant ivory from mammoth to show really how easily it can be done.

Hi Mark,

I think I saw that, and it was very helpful. My only confusion came from the photo with all of your different scales ready or mostly ready to go. A lot of them looked different from each other and I'd be lost trying to tell which was which. But I assume those differences were manufactured by you as those were knife scales ready to go, etc.

 

[Mark Knapp]

Staying out of the argument further here but I though I would give you a tip. When referencing a post, giving the page may not be relevant to everyone as any user can set the amount of posts displayed per page. For example, the post I am making right now, for me is on page 5. Much more accurate to supply the post number rather than page. FYI.

You are right again, I think you said that once before but I forgot, thanks.

 

[craytab]

You are right again, I think you said that once before but I forgot, thanks.

Wow, I guess I forgot I said it before. You have a better memory than me my friend!

 

[Mark Knapp]

Hi Mark,

I think I saw that, and it was very helpful. My only confusion came from the photo with all of your different scales ready or mostly ready to go. A lot of them looked different from each other and I'd be lost trying to tell which was which. But I assume those differences were manufactured by you as those were knife scales ready to go, etc.

Actually, all those different colors are provided by nature. The ivory gets those colors from the minerals in the ground where it laid for 20,000 years. I did not artificially color any of it. It would be very hard to duplicate the colors we get from nature. That's one of the ways we know it's mammoth for sure, you can't really fake it, or it's obvious when you try to fake it.

What I do is sand and polish.

 

[Mark Knapp]

Hi Mark,

I think I saw that, and it was very helpful. My only confusion came from the photo with all of your different scales ready or mostly ready to go. A lot of them looked different from each other and I'd be lost trying to tell which was which. But I assume those differences were manufactured by you as those were knife scales ready to go, etc.

OH yeah, if you want you can get a closer look at all of those scales here

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-Mammoth-ivory-scales?p=14411362#post14411362

When you get a better look you can really see the difference mammoth ivory bark and what any of the white ivories look like. You can also see how the colors would be hard to fake.

Talk to you later. MK