W2 heat treating results

[Willie71]

Now this is what I call customer service.

Really?

 

[Willie71]

Proper procedure? You're walking people through how to manage your ever changing steel and calling it customer service.

You have no traceability, or will not provide any, which further complicates the issue as people are left to guess by which date they ordered their stock as to which version they've recieved.

Keep on keeping on, IDGAF, your steel will never be a problem for me again.

I’m in the same boat.

 

[NJ Steel Baron LLC]

We have actually worked in a heat lot tracking system for our material. And we source most of our grades from single mills. We have certs available upon request for the current heat lots as well. If you don't want to use our material that's understandable. Thank you for your time and we will try and do better as we grow and progress.

Proper procedure? You're walking people through how to manage your ever changing steel and calling it customer service.

You have no traceability, or will not provide any, which further complicates the issue as people are left to guess by which date they ordered their stock as to which version they've recieved.

Keep on keeping on, IDGAF, your steel will never be a problem for me again.

 

[Willie71]

Hi all, I was just made aware of this thread the other day and hadn't had time to respond.
I'm going to be blunt; 9 times out of 10 this comes down to user error--either from equipment issues or skipping steps.
It's pretty simple, if there is a specific issue, customers can contact NJSB or myself at Ebraun@njsteelbaron.com to run through troubleshooting.
Without knowing specifics to specific incidents, it's tough to create catchall answers for general complications--as I literally just said, it might be something as skimping on cycling temps or times, if at all, or something like a thermocouple not properly communicating with a controller, or even over or under heating quench oil.
It should also be noted at this time that when I have had complaints about W2 hardening issues the past 10 months, it's come down predominately to inaccurate temperature readings; one oven manufacturer especially of late has had products that are not accurately reading temperature in the center of the oven, anywhere from 25 to 100 degrees below target.
That said, if a maker has issues with any NJSB steel, I am available for assistance for this purpose.

That isn’t the issue here though, is it? People with plenty of heat treating success, with W2 no less, are now having soft spots show up in the steel, or it fails to harden at all. Then add in the chemical analysis that shows carbon up to 10 points too low to even be called W2 is a problem. Why are people having to change from the ‘normal” 1450-1460f to 1500-1525f to get the steel to harden? You know this jump in temp (after the normalizing and cycling have been done, not skipping steps) suggests that the carbon is too low, right?

 

[Braun_E]

That isn’t the issue here though, is it? People with plenty of heat treating success, with W2 no less, are now having soft spots show up in the steel, or it fails to harden at all. Then add in the chemical analysis that shows carbon up to 10 points too low to even be called W2 is a problem. Why are people having to change from the ‘normal” 1450-1460f to 1500-1525f to get the steel to harden? You know this jump in temp (after the normalizing and cycling have been done, not skipping steps) suggests that the carbon is too low, right?

First of all, it should be made VERY clear that the one independent test that claimed lower carbon was performed at a brake drum plant and by a lab tech who did it as a favor for a friend of the maker who sent it; and there was no indication that the test was conducted properly. At the same time, once those results were finally made aware of at NJSB, pieces of steel from the same lot were sent to AEIS for testing and came back on certs--those results were posted to this thread by NJSB.


As to why people are having to change up temps, aside any relevant changes to their process that may separate one from the other, there is, again, a noted rising problem with temperature readings with some ovens. As of right now there are two dozen makers I've spoken to who have noted, as previously stated, major temperature fluctuations in their ovens during heat treat--some as little as 25 degrees, others upwards to over 100 degrees below target. I've reported this very issue to the manufacturer, and I am not dropping the name out of professional courtesy as they are supposedly addressing the issue at this time.
Another potential reason why someone would get a random soft spot on the blade could include too much clay, their parks being cold, edge geometry inconsistency--any given possible factor for vapor jacket inconsistencies or delayed cooling; a sheet may have been over annealed to over 90% accidentally during rolling and need a higher temperature cycling, but none of which is any reason to act like a company would intentionally sell bad steel or refuse to assist customers...and again why NJSB keeps me on retainer to direct customers for assistance. As to a singular unified answer why someone may have trouble, it almost always boils down to an individual case basis, so I'm sorry, I do no have a singular unified combined answer for any and all potential causes.

Again, most of the time it can be boiled down to one of several reasons, but the problem isn't ignored when it is brought to our attention.

 

[Willie71]

First of all, it should be made VERY clear that the one independent test that claimed lower carbon was performed at a brake drum plant and by a lab tech who did it as a favor for a friend of the maker who sent it; and there was no indication that the test was conducted properly. At the same time, once those results were finally made aware of at NJSB, pieces of steel from the same lot were sent to AEIS for testing and came back on certs--those results were posted to this thread by NJSB.


As to why people are having to change up temps, aside any relevant changes to their process that may separate one from the other, there is, again, a noted rising problem with temperature readings with some ovens. As of right now there are two dozen makers I've spoken to who have noted, as previously stated, major temperature fluctuations in their ovens during heat treat--some as little as 25 degrees, others upwards to over 100 degrees below target. I've reported this very issue to the manufacturer, and I am not dropping the name out of professional courtesy as they are supposedly addressing the issue at this time.
Another potential reason why someone would get a random soft spot on the blade could include too much clay, their parks being cold, edge geometry inconsistency--any given possible factor for vapor jacket inconsistencies or delayed cooling; a sheet may have been over annealed to over 90% accidentally during rolling and need a higher temperature cycling, but none of which is any reason to act like a company would intentionally sell bad steel or refuse to assist customers...and again why NJSB keeps me on retainer to direct customers for assistance. As to a singular unified answer why someone may have trouble, it almost always boils down to an individual case basis, so I'm sorry, I do no have a singular unified combined answer for any and all potential causes.

Again, most of the time it can be boiled down to one of several reasons, but the problem isn't ignored when it is brought to our attention.

I’m fully aware of the nuances of W2 heat treat. This is a patronizing response. I’m out.

 

[Justin Schmidt]

I’m fully aware of the nuances of W2 heat treat. This is a patronizing response. I’m out.

Double check your oven Warren. Just to rule that out

 

[Justin Schmidt]

The fact that tall posted actual lab conducted results of the w2 should be a clear enough reason that its NOT the steel

 

[Braun_E]

I’m fully aware of the nuances of W2 heat treat. This is a patronizing response. I’m out.

sorry if that's how it came out, it truly wasn't my intent. If the answer were as simple as "the batch is off" we would put that in writing and own it. But independent and certified lab tests on multiple pieces from this batch have shown it to be well within spec, as do the certs from the mill. It's as W2 as W2 gets.
We really are going over this with a fine tooth comb to the best of our ability, and not without the most sincere concern for our customers first and foremost.
We've sent additional samples of several of our grades to respected community members and have reached out to our single source mill in Germany to get the team there involved.

 

[Willie71]

The fact that tall posted actual lab conducted results of the w2 should be a clear enough reason that its NOT the steel

You buy that steel and stake your reputation on it. No one said the entire batch was crap, but that it’s inconsistent from one piece to another is the problem.

It’s strange that all these ovens are malfunctioning now, just with this one steel, but we’re fine before....

 

[kuraki]

First of all, it should be made VERY clear that the one independent test that claimed lower carbon was performed at a brake drum plant and by a lab tech who did it as a favor for a friend of the maker who sent it; and there was no indication that the test was conducted properly. At the same time, once those results were finally made aware of at NJSB, pieces of steel from the same lot were sent to AEIS for testing and came back on certs--those results were posted to this thread by NJSB.


As to why people are having to change up temps, aside any relevant changes to their process that may separate one from the other, there is, again, a noted rising problem with temperature readings with some ovens. As of right now there are two dozen makers I've spoken to who have noted, as previously stated, major temperature fluctuations in their ovens during heat treat--some as little as 25 degrees, others upwards to over 100 degrees below target. I've reported this very issue to the manufacturer, and I am not dropping the name out of professional courtesy as they are supposedly addressing the issue at this time.
Another potential reason why someone would get a random soft spot on the blade could include too much clay, their parks being cold, edge geometry inconsistency--any given possible factor for vapor jacket inconsistencies or delayed cooling; a sheet may have been over annealed to over 90% accidentally during rolling and need a higher temperature cycling, but none of which is any reason to act like a company would intentionally sell bad steel or refuse to assist customers...and again why NJSB keeps me on retainer to direct customers for assistance. As to a singular unified answer why someone may have trouble, it almost always boils down to an individual case basis, so I'm sorry, I do no have a singular unified combined answer for any and all potential causes.

Again, most of the time it can be boiled down to one of several reasons, but the problem isn't ignored when it is brought to our attention.

Who the fuck are you again to speak with any kind of authority on the subject? You're literally nothing but "some guy" Aldo called in to help him unfuck his growing reputation of being a plumber in over his head with zero knowledge of metallurgy. The problem with this appeal to authority is you have none.

It doesn't matter how many people you call or text or DM to berate about what they don't know, the cats out of the bag. NJSB knowingly sells junk steel because they're either to incompetent to know it or to unethical to admit it.

Double check your oven Warren. Just to rule that out

The fact that tall posted actual lab conducted results of the w2 should be a clear enough reason that its NOT the steel

Justin, just stop. Ask yourself who has anything to gain from bull shit "test results." It sure af fuck isn't the people making complaints.

 

[NJ Steel Baron LLC]

On other grades you aren't trying to get a hamon where you need to really dial in your temperature. When we had the bad mill run, our phones were ringing off the hook. We scrapped the load and replaced all the material. I know this because I cut every single bar since there were only 4 of us at the time. We've only had a few people report issues directly to us and in most cases have been able to work through the process with them and work things out. People find their oil is shot and realize maybe the past few blades they did were not as hard as they thought or they went back realized out of that batch of 5 they only tested one blank and their oven is colder in the front than the back. We aren't just leaving it up to that though. Believe me, we are sending out samples and making sure our product and the information available is as helpful as possible. We're finally wrapping up our new website and there will be a lot more data available, with current heat lots available and certs have always been available upon request. We stake our reputation on the material we sell as much as makers stake their reputation on turning that material into a usable tool.

You buy that steel and stake your reputation on it, no one said the entire batch was crap, but that it’s inconsistent from one piece to another is the problem.

It’s strange that all these ovens are malfunctioning now, just with this one steel, but we’re fine before....

 

[NJ Steel Baron LLC]

I really don't understand what issue you have with us and I think I've been pretty cordial so far in this thread. Thousands upon thousands of makers use our steel and make excellent blades out of it. We do not knowingly sell junk steel. Most of our material either comes from our German mill, Buderus Eselstahl, or from Niagara Specialty Metals. They both have world class reputations. You want certs, go ahead an give us a call. As far as you talking about Aldo, that would be my old man. And you would do well to keep your mouth shut. He's done more for this community than you could ever hope to do and has helped more makers be successful than you'll ever know. That's about all I have to say on the subject at this point. If you even think the test results from a third party are bullshit, I really can't help you. You can look them up too if you want. They stake their reputation on their results as well.

Who the fuck are you again to speak with any kind of authority on the subject? You're literally nothing but "some guy" Aldo called in to help him unfuck his growing reputation of being a plumber in over his head with zero knowledge of metallurgy. The problem with this appeal to authority is you have none.

It doesn't matter how many people you call or text or DM to berate about what they don't know, the cats out of the bag. NJSB knowingly sells junk steel because they're either to incompetent to know it or to unethical to admit it.







Justin, just stop. Ask yourself who has anything to gain from bull shit "test results." It sure af fuck isn't the people making complaints.

 

[Storm W]

sorry if that's how it came out, it truly wasn't my intent. If the answer were as simple as "the batch is off" we would put that in writing and own it. But independent and certified lab tests on multiple pieces from this batch have shown it to be well within spec, as do the certs from the mill. It's as W2 as W2 gets.
We really are going over this with a fine tooth comb to the best of our ability, and not without the most sincere concern for our customers first and foremost.
We've sent additional samples of several of our grades to respected community members and have reached out to our single source mill in Germany to get the team there involved.

Just as a sorta neutral spectator. I have actually worked at AEIS and know the tech who performed the test. While I don't tend to respect a lot of special inspection agencies and didn't like working for them they are definitely the best inspection company in the NYC area and are better than average at doing testing.

Just as some general advice to NJSB. In the building trades mill certs are mandatory by code. I don't know how much work would be involved but if you have the documentation already it would add some professionalism and transparency to send those with the steel. This would bring you to industry standard and tamp down these rumors. Given that some of your customers are trying to get down to 10 degrees and small chemical changes or the condition of the steel will mess with those recipes. If they could look at the certs and verify if they have a different batch it would give them a much better place to start with. Also some guidance or heat treating notes would be helpful. For instance, I ordered a bunch of 80CRV2 when I was starting out and was pretty frustrated that it wouldn't harden properly. I now won't by the stuff because it's a pain in the rear. A few heat treating notes would have fixed that and I could have either picked a different steel or started out doing the right process.

If people are having problems a etch will tend to tell something about what is happening. If there are problems as serious as large pieces of missing alloy that is something that would probably go back to the mill. In the construction world there would be huge issues that each party would be very concerned with. Also I'm not sure what test was done but the PMI guns they cannot read carbon or at least didn't a couple of years ago. They can at times be a bit finicky and a 4 element starts at 30k and can push 90k for a 12 to 14 element. They try to match as many elements that are known and surface condition is extremely important. Since they are so easy to use the can often go to less experienced techs and can have accuracy issues unless simply being used to verify what is expected. I don't know anything about who did the test or what equipment they used. This is just general commentary about the tools and the trade and not a comment about any of the testing that was done.

 

[Willie71]

I really don't understand what issue you have with us and I think I've been pretty cordial so far in this thread. Thousands upon thousands of makers use our steel and make excellent blades out of it. We do not knowingly sell junk steel. Most of our material either comes from our German mill, Buderus Eselstahl, or from Niagara Specialty Metals. They both have world class reputations. You want certs, go ahead an give us a call. As far as you talking about Aldo, that would be my old man. And you would do well to keep your mouth shut. He's done more for this community than you could ever hope to do and has helped more makers be successful than you'll ever know. That's about all I have to say on the subject at this point. If you even think the test results from a third party are bullshit, I really can't help you. You can look them up too if you want. They stake their reputation on their results as well.

Keep your mouth shut?!!! I will never buy from NJSB again. People are fed up with the inconsistency from one batch to another.

This is what I call customer service.

 

[Robert Erickson]

Again I certainly don't claim to be an expert but I have successfully heat treated 52100, 3V, 1084, 1095, S35VN, 10V, S110V, Vanax, 20CV, M390 using the typical protocols.
I was having trouble with w2 steel that I purchased in Nov 2018. It does seem to harden with this protocol that I previously listed:
2000 X 10 min air cool
1500 X 10 min air cool X 3
Aus 1525 X 10 min -> quench in P50
-Is that the lot the certs are from that you listed?

 

[NJ Steel Baron LLC]

Thank you for your input. We do actually have certs available and have established a better system to make sure the most current heat lot's certs are up to date and available for what is being sold. We've never had a problem providing certs for any of our steel that is sourced from our usual mills and suppliers. Once we wrap up the new website there will be suggested heat treats for each grade that will be updated as needed. Again, thank you for your input. Sorry this thread has taken a turn.

Just as a sorta neutral spectator. I have actually worked at AEIS and know the tech who performed the test. While I don't tend to respect a lot of special inspection agencies and didn't like working for them they are definitely the best inspection company in the NYC area and are better than average at doing testing.

Just as some general advice to NJSB. In the building trades mill certs are mandatory by code. I don't know how much work would be involved but if you have the documentation already it would add some professionalism and transparency to send those with the steel. This would bring you to industry standard and tamp down these rumors. Given that some of your customers are trying to get down to 10 degrees and small chemical changes or the condition of the steel will mess with those recipes. If they could look at the certs and verify if they have a different batch it would give them a much better place to start with. Also some guidance or heat treating notes would be helpful. For instance, I ordered a bunch of 80CRV2 when I was starting out and was pretty frustrated that it wouldn't harden properly. I now won't by the stuff because it's a pain in the rear. A few heat treating notes would have fixed that and I could have either picked a different steel or started out doing the right process.

If people are having problems a etch will tend to tell something about what is happening. If there are problems as serious as large pieces of missing alloy that is something that would probably go back to the mill. In the construction world there would be huge issues that each party would be very concerned with. Also I'm not sure what test was done but the PMI guns they cannot read carbon or at least didn't a couple of years ago. They can at times be a bit finicky and a 4 element starts at 30k and can push 90k for a 12 to 14 element. They try to match as many elements that are known and surface condition is extremely important. Since they are so easy to use the can often go to less experienced techs and can have accuracy issues unless simply being used to verify what is expected. I don't know anything about who did the test or what equipment they used. This is just general commentary about the tools and the trade and not a comment about any of the testing that was done.

 

[NJ Steel Baron LLC]

Keep your mouth shut?!!! I will never buy from NJSB again. People are fed up with the inconsistency from one batch to another.

This is what I call customer service.

I do apologize but he was insulting my old man, what would you do? Why do we have to just gladly let people say whatever they want no matter what? While my old man did get in over his head, he built a company that has provided thousands of makers with a valuable resource. Otherwise I have been entirely cordial in this discussion and have done nothing to warrant his response.

 

[NJ Steel Baron LLC]

To my knowledge that is the same lot, but I'll have to double check when I'm back in the office.

Again I certainly don't claim to be an expert but I have successfully heat treated 52100, 3V, 1084, 1095, S35VN, 10V, S110V, Vanax, 20CV, M390 using the typical protocols.
I was having trouble with w2 steel that I purchased in Nov 2018. It does seem to harden with this protocol that I previously listed:
2000 X 10 min air cool
1500 X 10 min air cool X 3
Aus 1525 X 10 min -> quench in P50
-Is that the lot the certs are from that you listed?

 

[Willie71]

I do apologize but he was insulting my old man, what would you do? Why do we have to just gladly let people say whatever they want no matter what? While my old man did get in over his head, he built a company that has provided thousands of makers with a valuable resource. Otherwise I have been entirely cordial in this discussion and have done nothing to warrant his response.

I would accept his frustration at face value, and commit to finding the problem. Your response was immature, unprofessional, and unacceptable. John is a fine smith, knowledgeable, and if he’s having problems, it’s the steel. He knows how to troubleshoot. End of the discussion.