- Joined
- Feb 1, 2007
- Messages
- 314
Stopped by an area Walmart and noticed they stopped carrying the Buck Special. Must be they couldn't squeeze anymore profit margin from them. Wonder how long for the 110 and what effect this will have on Buck sales?
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is available! Price is $250 ea (shipped within CONUS).
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/
Walmart
- Thread starter Robert Ptacel
- Start date
Esav Benyamin
MidniteSuperMod
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2000
- Messages
- 90,915
Just so you all know,
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/f...infractions_banning#faq_faq_infractions_lists
While we can't possibly list everything that you could possibly do to break the rules, here's a partial list.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/f...sts#faq_faq_infractions_auction_deal_spotting
Auction / Deal / Bargain Spotting
This is a variation of the "no spam" rules that we have. We know you found a great deal on a Ninja Death Tool 3000 - we don't care.
If that dealer wants to advertise on BladeForums.com, encourage them to purchase a Dealer membership here instead of giving them free advertising.
This infraction can be issued as a warning and is worth 10 points towards your total. It expires in 12 months.
WALMART is not a paid Bladeforums Dealer.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/f...infractions_banning#faq_faq_infractions_lists
While we can't possibly list everything that you could possibly do to break the rules, here's a partial list.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/f...sts#faq_faq_infractions_auction_deal_spotting
Auction / Deal / Bargain Spotting
This is a variation of the "no spam" rules that we have. We know you found a great deal on a Ninja Death Tool 3000 - we don't care.
If that dealer wants to advertise on BladeForums.com, encourage them to purchase a Dealer membership here instead of giving them free advertising.
This infraction can be issued as a warning and is worth 10 points towards your total. It expires in 12 months.
WALMART is not a paid Bladeforums Dealer.
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2007
- Messages
- 314
Sorry, I guess I didn't even think this would be deal spotting. Sorry again.
Esav,
The topic of different retailers dropping or bringing back diifferent models has come here in the Buck forum quite a bit. I know because I've the issue myself on numerous occasions.
Often, the issue being discussed isn't the availability of deals but the relative health and market vitality of a brand we love.
Wanting to discuss Bucks but wanting to stay well within the forum rules, could you provide more guidance as to when discussions of retail availability are ok and when they are not?
Is the issue here that the OP mentioned a particular store by name?
The topic of different retailers dropping or bringing back diifferent models has come here in the Buck forum quite a bit. I know because I've the issue myself on numerous occasions.
Often, the issue being discussed isn't the availability of deals but the relative health and market vitality of a brand we love.
Wanting to discuss Bucks but wanting to stay well within the forum rules, could you provide more guidance as to when discussions of retail availability are ok and when they are not?
Is the issue here that the OP mentioned a particular store by name?
Esav Benyamin
MidniteSuperMod
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2000
- Messages
- 90,915
Yes, it is. We have paid BF Dealers who market these knives. Do we mention Walmart when it does have them in stock? That would violate the rule on deal spotting. Why mention it now, to raise awareness of this dealer? Free advertising.
I was wondering the same? Really limits valid conversation on some important topics (i.e., economy, and vitality/viability of cutlery manufacturers, and support for same) if you can't mention a name in the text of a post without infringing on forum "advertising" rules.
Doug, I'm fully supportive of the forum's rules (whatever they are) regarding anything to do with commercial issues. In forums (unrelated to this entirely) that I've moderated both in terms of professional issues and hobbies, commercially related posts have traditionally been very difficult to manage. In this light, I believe that the moderators absolutely need to closely monitor things.
The business model that keeps the bladeforums servers turned on is based on advertising and limiting "advertising" by non-participants makes sense to me. At the same time, I think totally banning any mention of non-advertisers in any context is not what the rules are meant to convey (at least not according to my reading of them).
I suspect that if the OP had started this thread with a subject line like "Decreasing retail availability of Bucks" things would have been fine. But that's what I'm hoping Esav will be able to clarify.
The business model that keeps the bladeforums servers turned on is based on advertising and limiting "advertising" by non-participants makes sense to me. At the same time, I think totally banning any mention of non-advertisers in any context is not what the rules are meant to convey (at least not according to my reading of them).
I suspect that if the OP had started this thread with a subject line like "Decreasing retail availability of Bucks" things would have been fine. But that's what I'm hoping Esav will be able to clarify.
BG42EDGE
BANNED
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2009
- Messages
- 7,593
A post like the OP is not going to have any impact on Forum advertisers. Everybody knows that Wal-Mart exists, just like we know that e-Bay exists. Mentioning them is not going to cause anybody to change any buying habits.
We discuss these topics in the context of the general market. In other words, it interests us when a major retailer is dropping almost all Buck knives. What's wrong with opening that fact up for discussion?
I've noticed it myself. Our local Wally-World had only a total of FOUR Buck knife models when I checked a few days ago. Two were China-made and two American-made.
They used to have too many to count. I too, wonder if they're going to drop Buck and what impact that will have on the company......and us.
We discuss these topics in the context of the general market. In other words, it interests us when a major retailer is dropping almost all Buck knives. What's wrong with opening that fact up for discussion?
I've noticed it myself. Our local Wally-World had only a total of FOUR Buck knife models when I checked a few days ago. Two were China-made and two American-made.
They used to have too many to count. I too, wonder if they're going to drop Buck and what impact that will have on the company......and us.
Both of my local big box *-Mart retailers carry both the 119 special and 110. Perhaps you're seeing a short lived variation in local stocking?
This said, American tastes in knives changes. One place I find interesting to watch is the huge swings in popularity of the various clip styles associated with the different interpretations of the basic Bowie clip style. Classic knives like the Western L46-5 (no clip) and Schrade Walden H-15 (minimal clip) show that there is a range of styles and tastes in this regard. Not seeing the numbers, I'll bet that the 119 Special and 110 remain Buck's top sellers and while this may be true, I think it is also true that tastes among American knife buyers has swung away from dramatic clip points.
Buck's own hunting knives bears this out. Look at the Buck Vangaurds, Omni hunters and Bucklite Max lines, all of which are targeted specifically at hunters and all of which have moved away from clip points.
If I were at Buck, I would be doing some serious soul searching on these two statements, both of which I believe to be market facts:
1) The iconic Buck knives that define the Buck image (the Buck 110 and 119) are dramatic clip point profiles (currently)
2) Tastes among American sportsmen have been migrating away from dramatic clip points
The tough question for Buck IMO is how to correctly manage and leverage the Buck iconic image in the face of a significant market shift.
One option would be to allow the clip points to evolve to a less dramatic clip in the hopes of holding onto the traditional Bowie clip while providing for more belly in hopes of becoming more attractive to current buyers. Perhaps moving more towards the profile of the Schrade H-15 or traditional Ka-Bar profile.
H-15
Ka-Bar
Another option would be to split the iconic models into 2 variants: the traditional dramatic clip forms we know so well as well as drop point variants. We've seen 110 drop points. Can you imagine a 119 drop point? I can. Or a version of the (drop-point) Vanguard the traditional Buck black handle and pommel? I can imagine that too.
Last edited:
BG42EDGE
BANNED
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2009
- Messages
- 7,593
The 119 was NOT one of the four I mentioned that are still sold at my Wally.
It wasn't just out of stock. There was no empty spot with a 119 price/ID tag. It's gone.
I would offer a little different reason than Pinnah, though.
Prominently displayed nearby was a huge Winchester bowie for a very low China price. The folks that want a big bear-sticker might as well buy the much larger and more impressive China knife at a third of the price of the smaller 119.
That's my explanation.
It wasn't just out of stock. There was no empty spot with a 119 price/ID tag. It's gone.
I would offer a little different reason than Pinnah, though.
Prominently displayed nearby was a huge Winchester bowie for a very low China price. The folks that want a big bear-sticker might as well buy the much larger and more impressive China knife at a third of the price of the smaller 119.
That's my explanation.
BG, I think we're close on this.
Was in K-mart last night getting some shirts (tells you about my budget) and they had the 119 with a leather case for under $40, so I don't think price point is the issue. But, I do think there different potential buyers for large Bowies. One is the mall-ninja "knife as weapon" type and I suspect that those cheap and massive Winchester's are a better deal for them (your point, which I agree with).
The second is the outdoorsman, including hunters, hikers, tradesmen, farmers, survivalists and bushcrafters. My sense is (and I could be wrong on this but I don't think I am) that as a group, the tastes among outdoorsmen for fixed blades is to shorter blades in the 4" range and more towards drop point blades on the whole (my point).
Dirty rotten shame imo. I really would have to believe that with the classic black phenolic handle fixed blade and the new Paperstone scales of the Ecolite series when combined with 420HC blades, Buck is very capable of producing knives that:
a) Look and feel like substantial quality knives (in ways that the light and very capable but cheap feeling Bucklite Max line does not)
b) Has the look, feel and basic family resemblance of the iconic Buck models
c) Will be price competitive with any import being able to be sold in the $50 - $30 price range
d) Has the blade shapes that appeals to the current American outdoorsmen and workers.
It's really that last bit that I think Buck is stumbling on.
Was in K-mart last night getting some shirts (tells you about my budget) and they had the 119 with a leather case for under $40, so I don't think price point is the issue. But, I do think there different potential buyers for large Bowies. One is the mall-ninja "knife as weapon" type and I suspect that those cheap and massive Winchester's are a better deal for them (your point, which I agree with).
The second is the outdoorsman, including hunters, hikers, tradesmen, farmers, survivalists and bushcrafters. My sense is (and I could be wrong on this but I don't think I am) that as a group, the tastes among outdoorsmen for fixed blades is to shorter blades in the 4" range and more towards drop point blades on the whole (my point).
Dirty rotten shame imo. I really would have to believe that with the classic black phenolic handle fixed blade and the new Paperstone scales of the Ecolite series when combined with 420HC blades, Buck is very capable of producing knives that:
a) Look and feel like substantial quality knives (in ways that the light and very capable but cheap feeling Bucklite Max line does not)
b) Has the look, feel and basic family resemblance of the iconic Buck models
c) Will be price competitive with any import being able to be sold in the $50 - $30 price range
d) Has the blade shapes that appeals to the current American outdoorsmen and workers.
It's really that last bit that I think Buck is stumbling on.
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2008
- Messages
- 8,160
All due respect to the forum rules and the moderators, but I think there's really a need for some clarification here.
One thing that came immediatly to mind was the large number of Buck knives made exclusively for certain large chains (now and in the past) including the marts and several large sporting goods chains. If a poster wants to show, talk, or ask about one of those, is mentioning who it was made for a violation??? Since they would only be available in those stores or on an auction site, I don't see how that could taking anything away from the paying advertisers.
I know though my own experience here, that at time's I've bought a Buck that I was unfamiliar with and was unable to find it in any of Bucks catalogs or the special projects list. A questioning post here with a picture nearly always came up with the vendor (a paid advertiser or not) that it was made for and is an educational thing, not deal spotting.
If even mentioning the name of a non-advertisor in the forum is a rules infraction, then I think there should be a sticky at the top telling who the paying advertisers are.
One thing that came immediatly to mind was the large number of Buck knives made exclusively for certain large chains (now and in the past) including the marts and several large sporting goods chains. If a poster wants to show, talk, or ask about one of those, is mentioning who it was made for a violation??? Since they would only be available in those stores or on an auction site, I don't see how that could taking anything away from the paying advertisers.
I know though my own experience here, that at time's I've bought a Buck that I was unfamiliar with and was unable to find it in any of Bucks catalogs or the special projects list. A questioning post here with a picture nearly always came up with the vendor (a paid advertiser or not) that it was made for and is an educational thing, not deal spotting.
If even mentioning the name of a non-advertisor in the forum is a rules infraction, then I think there should be a sticky at the top telling who the paying advertisers are.
Last edited:
BG42EDGE
BANNED
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2009
- Messages
- 7,593
Well, Pinnah........there's always the Vanguard. It's a droppie and been around for a long time and Wal-Mart used to sell it.
Apparently it didn't work out.
I suppose it's really a combination of many things, and we probably haven't even hit on some here.
But the market is changing, that's for sure.
Apparently it didn't work out.
I suppose it's really a combination of many things, and we probably haven't even hit on some here.
But the market is changing, that's for sure.
BG, I think the Vanguard is a great knife to consider.
For avid and dedicated hunters, people who are likely subscribing to hunting magazines and watching hunting shows on cable TV at night, I'm pretty sure the Vanguard is well known and understood as being an excellent hunting knife (as it should). That dedicated hunter isn't probably outfitting herself or himself at Walmart though. More likely buying on-line or at a dedicated hunting store.
But for the general aspiring outdoorsman wandering into Walmart what would be compelling to the Buck Vanguard. Probably they've heard of the Buck but what they see in the packaging has no family resemblance to Bucks they've seen before. Nice knife, mind you. But it doesn't scream "I'm a Buck, trust me with your buying dollars."
Contrast this to the Victorinox Trekker series.
That's obviously not your father's SAK, but you don't need to hang that on the Walmart display rack next to a Victorinox Pioneer for Joe Walmart buyer to instantly recognize the Trekker as a being a known and recognized brand. It screams, "I'm a Swiss Army Knife, trust me with your buying dollars."
I rather suspect that a Vanguard with a black phenolic handle and sold at the $35-$40 price point (just at or below the 119's price) would have survived at Walmart. IMO it's competition would be the monstrosities from Gerber with Bear Grylis's grimacing face plastered on them. I'd put the instantly recognized and trusted black phenolic look up against those Gerbers, but not with the 119 or 105/103 clip point. Add the clip point and it's the walking dead.
Sadly, the same applies to the 110 with modern buyers, I think. Want to see the Buck 110 available in Walmart 5 years from now? IMO, Buck had better slap the 426 blade in the 110 frame right pronto and call it the 110 drop point (along with the thumbstuds, which I don't care for).
For avid and dedicated hunters, people who are likely subscribing to hunting magazines and watching hunting shows on cable TV at night, I'm pretty sure the Vanguard is well known and understood as being an excellent hunting knife (as it should). That dedicated hunter isn't probably outfitting herself or himself at Walmart though. More likely buying on-line or at a dedicated hunting store.
But for the general aspiring outdoorsman wandering into Walmart what would be compelling to the Buck Vanguard. Probably they've heard of the Buck but what they see in the packaging has no family resemblance to Bucks they've seen before. Nice knife, mind you. But it doesn't scream "I'm a Buck, trust me with your buying dollars."
Contrast this to the Victorinox Trekker series.
That's obviously not your father's SAK, but you don't need to hang that on the Walmart display rack next to a Victorinox Pioneer for Joe Walmart buyer to instantly recognize the Trekker as a being a known and recognized brand. It screams, "I'm a Swiss Army Knife, trust me with your buying dollars."
I rather suspect that a Vanguard with a black phenolic handle and sold at the $35-$40 price point (just at or below the 119's price) would have survived at Walmart. IMO it's competition would be the monstrosities from Gerber with Bear Grylis's grimacing face plastered on them. I'd put the instantly recognized and trusted black phenolic look up against those Gerbers, but not with the 119 or 105/103 clip point. Add the clip point and it's the walking dead.
Sadly, the same applies to the 110 with modern buyers, I think. Want to see the Buck 110 available in Walmart 5 years from now? IMO, Buck had better slap the 426 blade in the 110 frame right pronto and call it the 110 drop point (along with the thumbstuds, which I don't care for).
Last edited:
BG42EDGE
BANNED
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2009
- Messages
- 7,593
Since my usual role (correctly assumed or not) is to function as the Buck Forum iconoclast, I should probably at this point suggest that the classic knives being discussed (like the 119 and the 110 and 112) are rapidly (along with most of our older Forum members) becoming anachronistic.
The clip-point, Bowie-style knife now exists as a tribute to the past, not a vision of the future.
The future is urbanization and tacty-cool flippy-knives.
Will Buck even be in business five years from now? Maybe the vanishing classics are a clue.
Good indicator: are the people who make fake Buck knives faking the classics or the tacty-cools?
The clip-point, Bowie-style knife now exists as a tribute to the past, not a vision of the future.
The future is urbanization and tacty-cool flippy-knives.
Will Buck even be in business five years from now? Maybe the vanishing classics are a clue.
Good indicator: are the people who make fake Buck knives faking the classics or the tacty-cools?
BG, I think there is very good reasons for Buck, and those of us who love them, to be hopeful.
There are two things going for it. First, Buck has deep cultural icon status. Very few American knife companies can say this.
Second, I don't think that traditional and modern is an either/or issue in the minds of buyers. To use the term you perfectly brought into this, people want icons, not iconoclasts.
IMO, the trick is build a bridge between the old and possibly outdated icons and the modern in a manner that assures the buyer that the company is both rooted in it's strong past and responsive to modern needs. Sometimes, you can start an entirely new company to appeal to the new customer base. Toyota -> Scion. Delta -> Jet Blue. The danger here is that this can carve off the traditional iconic stuff which you want to preserve as a tool and anchor. Buck could go "all in" with the modern designs and keeping the traditional designs frozen in time, but I would think this would eventually lead to a Buck that is indistinguishable from, say, CRKT or Kershaw.
The better approach is to build a solid bridge from the iconic past to current times. Cadillac is doing this. They put the icon symbol on very modern cars. Ford does this when they put the F-150 badge on a "totally re-engineered truck for 2013". They hold onto the best of the past while adjust to the modern times. Victorinox has done this brilliantly with the SAK line. Witness the Trekker I posted a picture of.
Buck could certainly do this I think. And I think the bridge could work both ways. The credentials of updated classics give them an iconic credibility for their fully modern offerings that CRKT and Kershaw (to name 2) can't touch. And updated classics could help drive sales of fully iconoclast designs too, just as I bet that modern Trekkers helps Victorinox sell more Alox Soldiers.
There are two things going for it. First, Buck has deep cultural icon status. Very few American knife companies can say this.
Second, I don't think that traditional and modern is an either/or issue in the minds of buyers. To use the term you perfectly brought into this, people want icons, not iconoclasts.
IMO, the trick is build a bridge between the old and possibly outdated icons and the modern in a manner that assures the buyer that the company is both rooted in it's strong past and responsive to modern needs. Sometimes, you can start an entirely new company to appeal to the new customer base. Toyota -> Scion. Delta -> Jet Blue. The danger here is that this can carve off the traditional iconic stuff which you want to preserve as a tool and anchor. Buck could go "all in" with the modern designs and keeping the traditional designs frozen in time, but I would think this would eventually lead to a Buck that is indistinguishable from, say, CRKT or Kershaw.
The better approach is to build a solid bridge from the iconic past to current times. Cadillac is doing this. They put the icon symbol on very modern cars. Ford does this when they put the F-150 badge on a "totally re-engineered truck for 2013". They hold onto the best of the past while adjust to the modern times. Victorinox has done this brilliantly with the SAK line. Witness the Trekker I posted a picture of.
Buck could certainly do this I think. And I think the bridge could work both ways. The credentials of updated classics give them an iconic credibility for their fully modern offerings that CRKT and Kershaw (to name 2) can't touch. And updated classics could help drive sales of fully iconoclast designs too, just as I bet that modern Trekkers helps Victorinox sell more Alox Soldiers.
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2012
- Messages
- 179
Quite interesting. I'll add that I was in my local Walmart a week back after hearing about their decent Buck prices (it's is in a super liberal city and doesn't even stock ammunition.) So, I guess I wasn't too surprised when I discovered they had neither the 110 or 119 in stock -just some Chinese bucks and maybe one frugal American blade. This Walmart probably isn't representative of what most American Walmarts stock, but interesting in that some of you are seeing this too...
And when you mentioned K-mart, I realized I had not even considered the one not too far from me. Went there a little while ago and sure enought they did have a 119 with leather sheath (albeit for a bit more than $50) and the 110 for a bit more than $40. Sure these knives are pretty much worth that, but my Kmart is definitely charging slightly more
. Interestingly, they also had some other Buck knives including the Bucklite Max folder and Ergo hunter I think.
As for the future of those two blades and clip points, I don't at all think they're done. They are a very practical design, and if tested, would likely outperform others in real life outdoor tasks. Well, at least I'm hoping they keep going strong, because there are a lot more Bucks I need.
And when you mentioned K-mart, I realized I had not even considered the one not too far from me. Went there a little while ago and sure enought they did have a 119 with leather sheath (albeit for a bit more than $50) and the 110 for a bit more than $40. Sure these knives are pretty much worth that, but my Kmart is definitely charging slightly more
. Interestingly, they also had some other Buck knives including the Bucklite Max folder and Ergo hunter I think.As for the future of those two blades and clip points, I don't at all think they're done. They are a very practical design, and if tested, would likely outperform others in real life outdoor tasks. Well, at least I'm hoping they keep going strong, because there are a lot more Bucks I need.
Esav Benyamin
MidniteSuperMod
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2000
- Messages
- 90,915
Putting a sticky at the top of every forum, when honestly few people notice stickies, is futile. We do have a sticky in Tech Support:
***List Of Bladeforums Dealers*** at http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/935876-***List-Of-Bladeforums-Dealers***
There has to be leeway for discussions of market changes, but we also need to keep in mind that moving from that to "hurry to walmart, those models are back in stock" is too close to deal spotting.