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Want a No Choil Shaman?
- Thread starter gamma_nyc
- Start date
I don't like finger choils at the best of times, especially on medium - large folders. I can understand them being on a smaller folder to give more handle to grip. For instance, I don't mind a choil on a Para 3, but don't like it on a PM 2.
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The functionality of the choil appears to go beyond simply providing the ability to choke up, which itself is exceedingly valuable to a lot of people, including me.
The tall ricasso allows an additional method to safely close the knife with one hand. Similar to closing a Spyderco backlock one-handed, you can actuate the compression lock with your thumb and use your index finger as a half-stop for the blade.
If the choil were removed, there still is an end point to the sharpened length of the blade. If you're not controlling your cuts, you'll still be hitting the unsharpened part.
Without a choil, there still would be a ricasso. With other knives, thumbstuds are in the way. Knives that do get everything out of the way often allow the object you're cutting to rub against the handle, thus ruining it's finish, or allows whats being cut to simply fall off the heel of the blade.
At work I also cut a lot of packaging. It mostly consists of dirty cardboard and lots of big thick plastic bags... the bags are what get squirrelly for me with any knife.
I've found that simply having a very sharp knife is the best solution because it enables me to more easily control my cuts.
Steels like S30V/M390 are great for EDC, but if it's going to be a worker I need better edge retention so I can get through the whole day on a fine edge.
Hard steels that can hold a fine edge for a long time like REX-45, Maxamet, K390, 10V, and ZDP-189 were the solution to my cutting problems.
Of course if I dont do a good job sharpening, it's all for nothing. If sharpened correctly, the cutting can be so easy, you'll question why you even need such a big knife... at least I did.
You'll be surprised what a Spyderco Dragonfly can do if you get it with ZDP-189, HAP-40, or K390.
The tall ricasso allows an additional method to safely close the knife with one hand. Similar to closing a Spyderco backlock one-handed, you can actuate the compression lock with your thumb and use your index finger as a half-stop for the blade.
If the choil were removed, there still is an end point to the sharpened length of the blade. If you're not controlling your cuts, you'll still be hitting the unsharpened part.
Without a choil, there still would be a ricasso. With other knives, thumbstuds are in the way. Knives that do get everything out of the way often allow the object you're cutting to rub against the handle, thus ruining it's finish, or allows whats being cut to simply fall off the heel of the blade.
At work I also cut a lot of packaging. It mostly consists of dirty cardboard and lots of big thick plastic bags... the bags are what get squirrelly for me with any knife.
I've found that simply having a very sharp knife is the best solution because it enables me to more easily control my cuts.
Steels like S30V/M390 are great for EDC, but if it's going to be a worker I need better edge retention so I can get through the whole day on a fine edge.
Hard steels that can hold a fine edge for a long time like REX-45, Maxamet, K390, 10V, and ZDP-189 were the solution to my cutting problems.
Of course if I dont do a good job sharpening, it's all for nothing. If sharpened correctly, the cutting can be so easy, you'll question why you even need such a big knife... at least I did.
You'll be surprised what a Spyderco Dragonfly can do if you get it with ZDP-189, HAP-40, or K390.
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5-by-5
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Nope. Sounds horrible.
Sal has been very clear. That is a radical design change. Therefore a totally different knife. Which requires totally different tooling its own shop floor space 2 years of prototyping and $1000's to develop.
gamma_nyc
Gold Member
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- Dec 1, 2007
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You seem to start a lot of posts with “Nope. Sounds horrible”. It sounds like you are having difficulty coping with new ideas. Thankfully Sal and Eric and the Spyderco team have made their calling card on embracing new ideas and innovation.
I love the Shaman, but yes I would like to see more knives choil-less, contoured g10 with the blade all the way to handle ( I know Sal is watching closely as indicated in the new reveal and in the forums)
To be fair to the Shaman loyalists it would have to be a new design, Awesome! Maybe a new and improved Renegade with all the specs from above made in Golden of course with their great backlock goodness.
To be fair to the Shaman loyalists it would have to be a new design, Awesome! Maybe a new and improved Renegade with all the specs from above made in Golden of course with their great backlock goodness.
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To me it just sounds like you're not using the Shaman correctly.
gamma_nyc
Gold Member
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or, that I like holding a knife by the handle and rarely choke up on the blade.
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While open, the choil is part of the handle
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the shaman doesn't need changed... why mess with perfection?
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I would argue that the choil can be part of the handle when open, but isn’t always. For me, if a knife is large enough to get four fingers on the handle, I’ll very rarely use the choil, and would rather just have the blade closer to the handle.
I don’t really hate choils, but I prefer the kind that are more smooth transitions. Think ppt instead of pm2. However, I got rid of my ppt while I still have my pm2, so go figure.
To answer the op’s question, I don’t think the choil detracts much from the shaman so I could take or leave a choil-less shaman.
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No matter how you design a knife, the cutting edge has to stop somewhere and then transition into the handle.
For example:
Like Spyderco, Kershaw makes a point to keep the top of their blades clear of cutting obsticals such as thumbstuds. However, they bring the sharpened edge back as far as possible while terminating at something like a half choil instead an unsharpened ricasso. They even extend the top shoulder of the of the handle forward onto the blade, seemingly to help keep things away from the end of the sharpened edge. Despite all of this, it's not hard to hold the knife in a way where the media being cut slides off the heel and lands in the half choil.
An unsharpened ricasso, while seemingly in the way of usable surface area, helps keep whatever your cutting on the cutting edge, instead of allowing it to slide off the heel.
If you look at a Spyderco forward choil, half of it is part of the handle, and the other half is the ricasso. This otherwise would be dead space. The choil allows the end user the option of choking up, so as to better control the dynamics of the cut.
With the typical Golden Co. Spyderco, the grind at the top of the blade is thicker towards the handle then it is toward the tip. Things like cardboard that offer side to side resistance, will cut more easily toward the tip half of the blade and slightly resist going deeper.
While choked up, you completely eliminate all possible obstacles in the way of your cutting path. There isnt a better way than choking up to prevent what your cutting from jumping off the tracks.
For example:
Like Spyderco, Kershaw makes a point to keep the top of their blades clear of cutting obsticals such as thumbstuds. However, they bring the sharpened edge back as far as possible while terminating at something like a half choil instead an unsharpened ricasso. They even extend the top shoulder of the of the handle forward onto the blade, seemingly to help keep things away from the end of the sharpened edge. Despite all of this, it's not hard to hold the knife in a way where the media being cut slides off the heel and lands in the half choil.
An unsharpened ricasso, while seemingly in the way of usable surface area, helps keep whatever your cutting on the cutting edge, instead of allowing it to slide off the heel.
If you look at a Spyderco forward choil, half of it is part of the handle, and the other half is the ricasso. This otherwise would be dead space. The choil allows the end user the option of choking up, so as to better control the dynamics of the cut.
With the typical Golden Co. Spyderco, the grind at the top of the blade is thicker towards the handle then it is toward the tip. Things like cardboard that offer side to side resistance, will cut more easily toward the tip half of the blade and slightly resist going deeper.
While choked up, you completely eliminate all possible obstacles in the way of your cutting path. There isnt a better way than choking up to prevent what your cutting from jumping off the tracks.
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The same could be said for someone who doesn't know how to use a choil.
Not really
be a man. Stop choking up. This isn’t little league.
Not knowing how to use a choil isn’t the same as not needing to use it.
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It would be nice to debate the merits of design elements with someone who has the intellectual capacity to do so, instead of someone who has to resort to petty and juvenile insults or personal attacks.
gamma_nyc
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Guys, let’s keep it above the belt.
I simply state my preference is to see a “no choil” shaman. Heck, I’m not saying I would always prefer it vs standard Shaman, but I would definitely appreciate a “no choil” option.
heck, with all the sprints being done with slightly different blade/handle materials, I thought this might be a different sort of variation that people might find a reason to get behind.
I’m not trying to offend Shaman fans, just trying to tickle my fancy for a “no choil” variant.
I simply state my preference is to see a “no choil” shaman. Heck, I’m not saying I would always prefer it vs standard Shaman, but I would definitely appreciate a “no choil” option.
heck, with all the sprints being done with slightly different blade/handle materials, I thought this might be a different sort of variation that people might find a reason to get behind.
I’m not trying to offend Shaman fans, just trying to tickle my fancy for a “no choil” variant.
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The whole concept of a USA made compression lock, without a ricasso, and with total sharpened edge from handle to tip is undeniably extremely appealing. If executed correctly it would no doubt be a home run in the market.
I feel the core of this debate is not "choil or no choil" and instead is "ricasso or no ricasso"
Using one of my favorite knives as an example... the Delica does not have a choil. It does however have a very necessary, long ricasso.
If were talking about getting all of that out of the way of the cutting edge... On the Shaman, how do you bring the sharpened edge back all the way to the handle, while bringing the forward most point of the handle as close as possible to the cutting edge?
Looking at it, or any other compression lock, you probably can see that it appears to be possible. The blade needs to be changed, the handle needs to be changed, and the position of various parts changes.
So really we're talking about a whole new knife.
I feel the core of this debate is not "choil or no choil" and instead is "ricasso or no ricasso"
Using one of my favorite knives as an example... the Delica does not have a choil. It does however have a very necessary, long ricasso.
If were talking about getting all of that out of the way of the cutting edge... On the Shaman, how do you bring the sharpened edge back all the way to the handle, while bringing the forward most point of the handle as close as possible to the cutting edge?
Looking at it, or any other compression lock, you probably can see that it appears to be possible. The blade needs to be changed, the handle needs to be changed, and the position of various parts changes.
So really we're talking about a whole new knife.
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I want finger choils (and G-10) on all of my knives. It feels more secure in my hand. Less worry, more enjoyment.
But....if I am cutting so hard that it slips around in my hand, I am probably not being careful enough, or using the right knife for the job.
Gloves are a quick and easy solution.
I save lots of money passing on awesome knives without choils.