Want a No Choil Shaman?

The Shaman is as it is and there is no need to change that specific model.

However, in general, I do wish Spyderco offered more neutral handle designs in the line up. I'm not a fan of choils and they are rarely needed for the overwhelming majority of cutting tasks I perform and I often see them as wasted blade space.

But, I've been voicing this desire for years and reckon I'm in the minority. :)
 
Spyderco makes a lot of great models with well thought out finger choils.

However, I find through use, my personal preference is no finger choil on the blade and for the handle to allow me to be close to the cutting edge.

For example, on a Manix 2, Stretch 2, PM2, etc., many times I drag my knuckle or finger into the media I’m cutting.

One thing I really like though, is they have no sharpening choil for things to get hung up on.

This is all personal preference of course. And I enjoy all sorts of different models and design features.

To answer the OP, it would be neat to see a variation similar to the Shaman without the choil, but most likely it would just be a whole new knife.
 
SubMicron said:
I feel the core of this debate is not "choil or no choil" and instead is "ricasso or no ricasso"
Click to expand...

That's a good point. For me, I prefer to minimize the ricasso. Backlocks and slip joints require some ricasso for the kick to rest against the rocker bar or spring when closed. Otherwise, I would rather have the blade sharp and the handle blunt with no middle ground. That's my opinion, no charge. Still, as long as there's something for everybody, so much the better.
 
I'd like to see the same exact knife without a choil as well. It would be the ultimate folder imo. I like the design a lot as it is, but no choil could take it to the next level. If they remove the choil and change the rest of the knife it would kill it for me though.
 
Hi Gamma,

We have many designs with and without Finger Choils or Ricasso's and the edge comes close to the handle. The Caribbean, Lil' Temperance, Autos and D'Allara are exmples. A Shaman with no finger choil would really be a completely different model. I'll draw one up and see if it can work?

It's much harder to do on back-lock, which is why I designed the "experimental" Rock Jumper to see market reaction.

sal
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi Gamma,

We have many designs with and without Finger Choils or Ricasso's and the edge comes close to the handle. The Caribbean, Lil' Temperance, Autos and D'Allara are exmples. A Shaman with no finger choil would really be a completely different model. I'll draw one up and see if it can work?

It's much harder to do on back-lock, which is why I designed the "experimental" Rock Jumper to see market reaction.

sal
Click to expand...

I think the Caribbean design is what I had been envisioning, but would love to see what you come up with Sal! You are the best!
 
I'll have to admit that this thread has got me repeatedly looking at my PM2 and Para 3 while trying to figure out how it could be done. Its really has captured my imagination.

Z-Wear hopefully will be my first Shaman. Looking at pictures online, the cutting edge doesn't appear to plunge into the ricasso as deep as it does on my PM2.

The entire pivot assembly and choil size is the same for my PM2, Para 3, and Lil Native. I dont know if it is for the Shaman as well.

On my PM2, it appears that the height of the edge is almost level with the point where the stop pin makes contact while closed. I can envision the edge starting where the first jimp is located. To me, it looks like the flat grind could come all the way back towards the handle.

It would seem that the entire pivot assembly can be built upon, unchanged. New scales new liner. Same pin location. The butt of the blade internally may not need changes at all.

For some reason my mind keeps wandering towards something like a PM2 but with a smaller thumb hole in the same spot, a smaller thumb ramp but closer to the handle.

Almost like a hybrid Native/Shaman/PM2 blade profile.

Should I risk embarrassing myself and draw it?

I'd imagine that Sal and Eric already have all kinds of things like this already drawn out.
 
SubMicron said:
I'll have to admit that this thread has got me repeatedly looking at my PM2 and Para 3 while trying to figure out how it could be done. Its really has captured my imagination.

Z-Wear hopefully will be my first Shaman. Looking at pictures online, the cutting edge doesn't appear to plunge into the ricasso as deep as it does on my PM2.

The entire pivot assembly and choil size is the same for my PM2, Para 3, and Lil Native. I dont know if it is for the Shaman as well.

On my PM2, it appears that the height of the edge is almost level with the point where the stop pin makes contact while closed. I can envision the edge starting where the first jimp is located. To me, it looks like the flat grind could come all the way back towards the handle.

It would seem that the entire pivot assembly can be built upon, unchanged. New scales new liner. Same pin location. The butt of the blade internally may not need changes at all.

For some reason my mind keeps wandering towards something like a PM2 but with a smaller thumb hole in the same spot, a smaller thumb ramp but closer to the handle.

Almost like a hybrid Native/Shaman/PM2 blade profile.

Should I risk embarrassing myself and draw it?

I'd imagine that Sal and Eric already have all kinds of things like this already drawn out.
Click to expand...

it would be interesting to see your drawing. What have you got to lose, assuming you enjoy the work of it?
 
The Shaman is a fairly unique design. I wanted to have a large blade capable of hard use with enough handle to control the blade. The "guard" at the forward end of the finger choil was a necessary part of the safety margin I wanted on the blade. I'm not sure it will work without a finger choil, but we'll make a model and see how the ergos and safety work.

A design is a puzzle of many parts that all must work together to do the intended job. When I begin a design, the concept of a choil, Ricasso or edge to handle must be decided early on in the the process. Much has to do with size.

sal
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi Gamma,

We have many designs with and without Finger Choils or Ricasso's and the edge comes close to the handle. The Caribbean, Lil' Temperance, Autos and D'Allara are exmples. A Shaman with no finger choil would really be a completely different model. I'll draw one up and see if it can work?

It's much harder to do on back-lock, which is why I designed the "experimental" Rock Jumper to see market reaction.

sal
Click to expand...

That Rock Jumper is an attractive knife Sal! Any chance of a leaf or other "bellied" blade?

I understand it is purpose built but just curious.
 
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Shaman XL? Then we would have more cutting edge and still have a useful choil. Just food for thought.
 
So I do not own a Shaman, yet, which makes it hard for me to grasp it's finer points.

From looking at pictures, the height of the whole knuckle around the pivot seems taller than a PM2 and the stop pin seems to be moved.

The relationship of the blade height to the ricasso between the Shaman and the PM2 is also different. The PM2 plunges deeper whereas the Shaman is more shallow so as to achieve a taller blade.

On the Shaman, the nub of the ricasso meets your finger at the compression lock. If that was a sharpened edge, that would cut you. Now here is the point where everything has to be changed.

If the handle were taller and the compression lock was moved up to clear the sharpened edge, then dominoes start falling. This changes where the tab of the lock meets the blade, which changes the location of the stop pin, which then changes the point where it meets the blade when closed.

The blade could be made less tall, but that kind of defeats the point of the Shaman a little bit.

It's a circular problem that requires an entire redesign.

Going back to the core of the original post of the thread which was about achieving a knife that is free of snags at the heel...

On a PM2, because the sharpened edge is approximately level with the point where the stop pin rests while closed, none of the above clearance issues exist. To me the PM2 seems like a more natural platform, at least for the initial concept. The existing blade edge can simply be brought all the way back with a mini ricasso at the handle.

For the record, I'm very happy with the existing designs of the Shaman and PM2.

Because this topic seems to be fun, I took a PM2 and outlined the profile on paper, shown below.

I then erased the choil, took the FFG almost all the way back to the handle, and drew the mini ricasso. As you can see below, I expanded on the idea with two more drawings.

Obviously the G10 would have to get shaped a little differently around the shoulder of the handle. This moves finger location forward which then affects how your hand rides the center hump... so for now I set all that aside and focused on the blade.

From the point where the stop pin touches while closed, there would just be a small plateau to form the mini ricasso.

20200513_113933.jpg

Like I said, I traced the PM2 first. When I redrew it, shown in the middle, I was very happy with the profile. It reminded me of the blade profile of my Manix 2, just a little bit less tall.

In order to achieve a taller blade, I just redrew it again, but taller on top. I think on that one, the thumb hole could be just a little smaller then what I drew.
 
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Yes - those pictures were posted in another thread here. While I like the modifications, the knife is no longer a Shaman because the most distinctive feature of Shaman is its fat blade.

The modification posted by T Ty204 , while deleting the choil, would lead to a safety issue: the edge of the blade would be nearly exposed at the lock notch in closed position. So the handle would have to be taller/wider or the blade narrower, basically making it a Caribbean.o_O
 
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