Warning from China

[chester22]

What about someone that buys one not realizing it is fake then goes to sell it on a forum at the going price? Then you can't go by price to tell.
Are there fake 0561's out there?

No 0561's but I have seen Fake ZT-9s and Fake ZT0777 already....

 

[GronK]

I'd say a lot depends on the price of the fake. I don't imagine that Chris Reeve is suffering financially because of $20 fake Sebenzas. I don't imagine that many people are deciding between a $20 fake Sebenza and a $400 genuine Sebenza. I don't imagine there are many people who buy $20 fakes who would spend $400 on a genuine knife if the fake didn't exist. Those people who buy the $20 fakes have no involvement in Chris Reeves bottom-line if they wouldn't be buying his knives anyway.

I've also seen several people who bought fake knives who were so disgusted with the low-quality of the fakes that they decided to buy a more expensive genuine-made knife. So in a way it could be said that fakes actually generate business for the genuine knife manufacturers.

If there have been any knife companies that have gone out of business, and it has been documented that they went out of business because of fakes, I be interested to know who they were.

Thank you for an example of the rationalization I was talking about. If you can't (or won't) spend the bucks for the real deal then there are affordable alternatives that aren't ripping off another man's work. At the very least there are "homage" knives looking much the same but without the branding. The ones who are hurt the most are the enthusiasts who would like to be able to buy sell and trade on the aftermarket without getting ripped off.

 

[frontline29]

Stick to authorized dealers and trusted sellers and you won't have anything to worry about.

 

[Karda]

Do these people whom are making exact copies (fake branded, branded, unbranded) of another manufacturers design pay royalties or licensing to the originator.... No.
Do they even give the original manufacturers/designers credit for their efforts.... No.

Nevermind that often they dont use the same quality materials in manufacture.

Justify it however you want. Call it whatever you want, Thievery is it's actual name.

 

[Cassull]

What I don't understand is why the US and the rest of the world can't come together and pressure China into obeying copyright laws.

China is one of the largest, if not the largest trading partner the US has. All the government has to do is threaten to increase tax on products made in China and I'm sure they'll play ball.

 

[tyr_shadowblade]

What I don't understand is why the US and the rest of the world can't come together and pressure China into obeying copyright laws.

China is one of the largest, if not the largest trading partner the US has. All the government has to do is threaten to increase tax on products made in China and I'm sure they'll play ball.

China has "most favored nation" status. They likely own 20% of the stocks in American corporations. All the "big box" stores are dependent upon Chinese imports. Hence, they pretty much have carte blanche to counterfeit.

 

[killgar]

Do these people whom are making exact copies (fake branded, branded, unbranded) of another manufacturers design pay royalties or licensing to the originator.... No.
Do they even give the original manufacturers/designers credit for their efforts.... No.

Nevermind that often they dont use the same quality materials in manufacture.

Justify it however you want. Call it whatever you want, Thievery is it's actual name.

I personally see a big difference between a knife made to look like another knife, and a knife being intentionally passed-off as another knife.

To use my previous example- If a company makes a copy of a Sebenza, and marks it exactly the same as a real Sebenza, and advertises it as a Sebenza, I think that is very wrong. In fact, I'd say it's a crime (fraud) that should be prosecuted, whether it's a company doing it or an individual on ebay.

But if a company produces a copy of a Sebenza, and marks it with the true manufacturers mark on it, perhaps stenciling the word GRYPHON on the blade to clearly indicate that it is NOT a Sebenza, then I don't see anything wrong with that.

I started a thread yesterday about the morality of buying "copies", but I guess I came on to strong because it was quickly locked. I sure hope it wasn't locked just because a moderator took offense at my opinions. But let me ask this here, if it's wrong, immoral, for a person to by a "copy" of a knife when the company didn't ask permission of the original manufacturer or pay them royalties, is it equally wrong, immoral to buy, say, generic medications from a company that didn't ask permission from the original manufacturer or pay them royalties? Is it thievery to buy generic medications? Or does this sense of morality only apply to knives?

 

[MassMatt]

If there have been any knife companies that have gone out of business, and it has been documented that they went out of business because of fakes, I be interested to know who they were.

How could any manufacturer "document" this? Do you suppose pirates forward on their sales figures to the legit manufacturers whose goods they are counterfeiting?

If a manufacturer wanted to market low cost versions of their product line there are plenty of ways they can do this with legit companies where they can control quality and gain revenue. That someone is doing this without any input or approval from the original manufacturer means every $ they earn is lost revenue to the originator. Not to mention the damage to the brand! Putting Ferrari's or CRK's name on junk damages their ability to get what the market would/should pay for their level of quality.

And if you are buying from a pirate, you already know they are dishonest, who knows what else they will pull--probably anything they think will make them a buck and get away with. Are they actually going to even send a knock off knife or an empty box? Or take your $ and ignore you? Lay down with dogs....

 

[MassMatt]

I personally see a big difference between a knife made to look like another knife, and a knife being intentionally passed-off as another knife.

I started a thread yesterday about the morality of buying "copies", but I guess I came on to strong because it was quickly locked. I sure hope it wasn't locked just because a moderator took offense at my opinions. But let me ask this here, if it's wrong, immoral, for a person to by a "copy" of a knife when the company didn't ask permission of the original manufacturer or pay them royalties, is it equally wrong, immoral to buy, say, generic medications from a company that didn't ask permission from the original manufacturer or pay them royalties? Is it thievery to buy generic medications? Or does this sense of morality only apply to knives?

If you don't bother reading the responses to your own thread what was the purpose of creating it? The moderator explained why the thread was locked when he locked it. And before it was locked, someone replied that your analogy to generic drugs was spurious.

Drug makers have extraordinary expenses they must bear to get a drug to market, far greater than pretty much any other product. In exchange, if it is approved, they are able to be the exclusive maker/seller and charge whatever they think the market will bear for a period of time. After that expires other manufacturers are able to create and market the drug though the original manufacturer still has rights to the NAME. Counterfeit drugs (both brand name and generic) also are rampant and extremely dangerous, for obvious reasons. So no, it is not immoral to buy a generic drug, it is generic for a reason. We are talking about apples, you are bringing up oranges.

 

[killgar]

How could any manufacturer "document" this? Do you suppose pirates forward on their sales figures to the legit manufacturers whose goods they are counterfeiting?

If no one can identify a company that went out of business because of "copies" cutting into their sales or ruining their reputation, then they shouldn't say that copies will put a company out of business or ruin their reputation. People need to be able to back-up their assertions.

If a manufacturer wanted to market low cost versions of their product line there are plenty of ways they can do this with legit companies where they can control quality and gain revenue. That someone is doing this without any input or approval from the original manufacturer means every $ they earn is lost revenue to the originator.

If a company chooses not to produce a lower-cost version of their products that's their business. The business world is dog-eat-dog. If there is an opportunity for someone to sell a product and make a profit, they will. If a manufacturer chooses to ignore the low-cost market, then they shouldn't complain if someone else does what they choose not to do.

Not to mention the damage to the brand! Putting Ferrari's or CRK's name on junk damages their ability to get what the market would/should pay for their level of quality.

Identifying a copy as the real thing is fraud. Fraud is a crime and should be prosecuted. And those convicted of fraud should go to prison. And if fraudulently marked products are being imported into this country, then Customs should put more effort into stopping them.

And if you are buying from a pirate, you already know they are dishonest, who knows what else they will pull--probably anything they think will make them a buck and get away with. Are they actually going to even send a knock off knife or an empty box? Or take your $ and ignore you? Lay down with dogs....

Buyer beware. I may be old fashioned, but I'm very leery of giving my credit card number to anyone over the internet. If you send money to a person you don't know or a company with a questionable reputation, well, you take your chances and you get what you get.

 

[killgar]

If you don't bother reading the responses to your own thread what was the purpose of creating it? The moderator explained why the thread was locked when he locked it. And before it was locked, someone replied that your analogy to generic drugs was spurious.

Drug makers have extraordinary expenses they must bear to get a drug to market, far greater than pretty much any other product. In exchange, if it is approved, they are able to be the exclusive maker/seller and charge whatever they think the market will bear for a period of time. After that expires other manufacturers are able to create and market the drug though the original manufacturer still has rights to the NAME. Counterfeit drugs (both brand name and generic) also are rampant and extremely dangerous, for obvious reasons. So no, it is not immoral to buy a generic drug, it is generic for a reason. We are talking about apples, you are bringing up oranges.

People say it's wrong, even immoral, to buy knives from companies that are copying other companies designs without permission and without paying royalties. If people are going to make moral judgments of others on this forum then they should be prepared to have their views challenged.

You can call it "apples and oranges" if you want, but whether it's knives or heart medicine, either you believe that it's wrong and immoral for a company to copy someone elses product without their permission and sell it without paying royalties or you don't. Selective morality is not morality at all, it's hypocrisy.

I can garuntee you that those pharmacutical companies are just as angry as knife manufacturers, if not more so, when another company copies their product without their permission and sells it.

 

[MassMatt]

If you insist on clinging to an analogy after it's been pointed out to be false and even double down by crying hypocrisy there isn't much point in continuing the discussion. Looks like the mod was quite right to shut down your original thread.

 

[FCM415]

I actually personally thanked the mod via pm that shut down your thread. Looks like you found your arena anyway. Guys, stop responding to this clown. Member since 2002 and doesn't have a clue what piracy does to the knife community. If its okay for you then that's your prerogative, but save us from the rest, there doesn't seem to be anything necessary, new or original you can offer on the subject.

You keep bringing up Chris Reeve Sebenza in your arguments. Ask Chris Reeve how he feels about piracy. Is the idea of supporting guys like Chris Reeve in the fight against piracy so alien to you that you have to sit here and lecture us based on your perceived morality? Tell me why Chris Reeve decided to stamp his knives with that ugly idaho made stamp, you think he just did it for kicks right? Now there's new fakes popping up with the idaho made stamp. Regardless of where YOU draw the line, others attempt to discourage it any way possible. Counterfeiters will get their money regardless, you don't have to get so worked up standing up for them.

 

[CWL]

You can call it "apples and oranges" if you want, but whether it's knives or heart medicine, either you believe that it's wrong and immoral for a company to copy someone elses product without their permission and sell it without paying royalties or you don't. Selective morality is not morality at all, it's hypocrisy.

I can garuntee you that those pharmacutical companies are just as angry as knife manufacturers, if not more so, when another company copies their product without their permission and sells it.

Um, no. Big Pharma aren't "just as angry", because they've taken the huge profits earned from the patent-days and sunk them into the next generations of new drugs that will make them more money. Why fight with generic branded drugs for low profit margins?

Pharmaceuticals are also typically multinational corporations who employ thousands of attorneys to protect their patents and claims. Which knife company can compete with or afford that?

You demonstrate a severe lack of business knowledge, as well as the purpose of patents and copyright laws. Please don't embarrass yourself more by arguing about the pharmaceutical industry.

 

[unklfranco]

I love the Enlan EL-2b but I would be PO'ed if someone charged me $150 for it, claiming it was a Benchmade. Just because I love my Enlan it did not prevent me from buying my Griptilians and Adamas.

Woops, didnt mean to get into the whole Morality thing. Oh Mods, I think its time to hit the kill switch. LOL

Unklfranco

 

[killgar]

I actually personally thanked the mod via pm that shut down your thread. Looks like you found your arena anyway. Guys, stop responding to this clown. Member since 2002 and doesn't have a clue what piracy does to the knife community. If its okay for you then that's your prerogative, but save us from the rest, there doesn't seem to be anything necessary, new or original you can offer on the subject.

Funny how you respond to me but tell others not too. What is it about this topic that you find so threatening that you don't want it discussed? What's also funny is that no matter how much I've disagreed with people on this forum, I've never refered to anyone as "clown". I believe in being respectful of people even when I disagree with them. I like to engage in intelligent debate, not childish name-calling. But that's just me.

You keep bringing up Chris Reeve Sebenza in your arguments. Ask Chris Reeve how he feels about piracy. Is the idea of supporting guys like Chris Reeve in the fight against piracy so alien to you that you have to sit here and lecture us based on your perceived morality? Tell me why Chris Reeve decided to stamp his knives with that ugly idaho made stamp, you think he just did it for kicks right? Now there's new fakes popping up with the idaho made stamp. Regardless of where YOU draw the line, others attempt to discourage it any way possible. Counterfeiters will get their money regardless, you don't have to get so worked up standing up for them.

Perhaps if you read more carefully you would have seen that in posts #27 and 30 I clearly stated that trying to pass-off a copy as the real thing (using fake makers marks) is fraud and should be prosecuted and the guilty imprisoned. Perhaps you missed those statements, or chose to ignore them.

And to correct you on another point, it's not my "percieved morality" that is being preached here or on this forum. I'm not the one calling peoples character into question for buying a copy of a knife.

 

[FCM415]

You're here talking about what you claim as differences in how people perceive the same act... You labeled people as hypocrites, I called you a clown. Quiet trivial, but I couldn't help it given the situation.

Trust me, I do want it discussed, but it will not end well.

 

[killgar]

Um, no. Big Pharma aren't "just as angry", because they've taken the huge profits earned from the patent-days and sunk them into the next generations of new drugs that will make them more money. Why fight with generic branded drugs for low profit margins?

Pharmaceuticals are also typically multinational corporations who employ thousands of attorneys to protect their patents and claims. Which knife company can compete with or afford that?

You demonstrate a severe lack of business knowledge, as well as the purpose of patents and copyright laws. Please don't embarrass yourself more by arguing about the pharmaceutical industry.

Clearly you missed my point. So I'll try to explain it as simply as possible- If it's wrong to buy a copy of a knife when the original manufacturer did not give permission to make that knife, is it equally wrong to buy any other product that is a copy made without the permission of the original manufacturer?

Once agin, people on this forum are making moral judgements of others based solely on knife purchases. If it's wrong to buy an unauthorized copy of a knife, why is it alright to buy an unauthorized copy of any other product?

I think that if anyone is judging the morality of other members here based on their purchase of "copied" knives, and they themselves are buying other "copied" products, then maybe they need to take a good look at themselves and not be passing judgement on others.

 

[killgar]

You're here talking about what you claim as differences in how people perceive the same act... You labeled people as hypocrites, I called you a clown. Quiet trivial, but I couldn't help it given the situation.

Trust me, I do want it discussed, but it will not end well. You seem to lack oversight.

Agin, you're not reading carefully. I didn't call anyone a hypocrite. Please back up that statement and quote where I did. What I clearly said was "Selective morality isn't morality at all, its hypocricy". I wonder, would you disagree with that statement?

If a person says that it is immoral to do something, like buy an unauthorized copy of a knife, but they think it's perfectly fine to buy unauthorized copies of other products, then I would call that selective morality. I would call that hypocricy. I don't know what others would call it. No offense intended to those who fit this description.

Personally, I believe that mature individuals with mutual respect can discuss any topic intelligently, no matter how controversial it may be. I'd hate to think that the human race has given up on the idea of discussing issues that they may disagree on.

 

[FCM415]

Most of the day to day items you are talking about are nameless products, tools, commodity items. There is a direct relationship with the knifemakers and other artists in a given hobby to their customers. Your argument looks good on the outside but is pretty hollow and doesn't have much standing behind it. Your argument is something like, "why buy a Samsung TV, they didnt invent so you are a hypocrite for not buying fromwhoever invented the TV" or "why do you have an IBM clone, shame on you it's like having a fake Sebenza" etc etc. Dude, if you can't tell the difference, go get a clue somewhere. You are comparing the pharmaceutical industry to knifemakers? Dude, take what you got and go move on, trust me.