Warranty.....

Marion David Poff

Marion David Poff

Joined
Oct 8, 1998
Messages
5,403
Just recently my attention was called to this.

http://members.tripod.com/~Newt_Livesay/index3.htm

So, who has strong (read: short on fine print) warranties?

Busse, Strider, Becker?, Mineral Mountain.

What do all you think about warranties?

Do you buy a knife based on it's warranty?

Is it a primary or secondary consideration when considering a purchase?

What does a warranty like the above tell you about the blades? Mind you, Newt is not the only one with a warranty like that, Mad Dog offers about the same or less, and he charges twice as much for his blades, and you have to watch out for 'fakes'.

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Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye, Cd'A ID, USA mdpoff@hotmail.com

>>--->Bill Siegle Custom Knives<---<<
-http://www.geocities.com/siegleknives-

Talonite Resource Page, nearly exhaustive!!

Fire Page, metal match sources and index of information.

"We will either find a way, or make one." Hannibal, 210 B.C.
 
I think it sucks that Newt had to change his policy but what can he do?If guys like Cliff are determined to bust up a makers knives and then want a refund in the name of knife testing what can he do?I think Newt is pretty reasonable and I think if a knife broke under reasonable use he would do the right thing.

Thanks again Cliff for ruining a good thing for the rest of us normal knife users.

troy
 
We sent back a knife to Benchmade that was actually blown up in a building demolition and it was replaced. It was a BM-7500 auto tanto. Now that is cool!

As far as other warranties I think Camillus, Microtech and Busse have the strongest we have seen.

Who has the lowest return rate?

Busse, Camillus, REKAT and Microtech.

Who has the highest?
Benchmade, Spyderco & Paragon/Al Mar.

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Troy,
Perhaps you'll explain to us exactly what it was that Cliff did to that RCM that you find to be unreasonable or abusive?

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Semper Fi

-Bill
 
Well,i wont put a finer point on it than this: I'll just say that Cliff has really shot his credibility in my eyes.He's given good reviews to knives that haven't been created yet;given bad reviews to knives he hasn't even handled and just in general shown through his writings that he has his own agenda.If the guy says he dented the knife chopping wood and Newt says he tested the steel and found it was up to par-this confuses me.See Newt is a pretty straight shootin' guy .I have never had cause to distrust or doubt anything he has ever said or done.Therefore I choose not to believe Cliff.
 
Personally, I will not purchase a knife from any manufacturer that dosen't have a decent warranty. To me, it is very important that a manufacturer stands behind their product. If they can't, their product must not be worth a crap, and certainly not worth me spending money on it.

Of course, thats just my opinion...yours may vary......
 
Troy,
So I guess what your insinuating is that Cliff's testing in this particular case doesn't constitute abuse as reported, but that he deliberately falsified or misrepresented his findings to further a personal agenda, and that this eventually led to Newt modifying his warranty.



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Semper Fi

-Bill
 
Mike,
I found your list of knife companies with the lowest and highest return rates interesting. Did you rate these companies by the number of knives sold versus knives returned for a percentage? Or are you just looking at just the number of knives being returned for each manufacturer? I'm curious because some of those knives list have reputations that don't seem to coincide with your return rates.
confused.gif



[This message has been edited by Easyrider (edited 12-16-2000).]
 
To me, a good warranty speaks well of a company because it shows two things. 1) a commitment to quality (they wouldn't give a lifetime warranty on a product they expect to fail), and 2) a commitment to the customer (me).
I think warranties are more important now that many of us are buying our knives online, and are unable to handle them ahead of time, even though my understanding is that the seller usually assumes responsibility for obvious defects on an out-of-the-box knife.
All that said, most of my knives (which are mainly folders) are from quality manufacturers like Spyderco and Benchmade, and I have been fortunate enough to have never had a need for warranty service of any kind.

IMO, abusive testing being publicized could easily make a manufacturer queasy about offering an unconditional warranty, because it might encourage people to make an effort to test a product to failure simply because "they can". Normally, I'm far from an abuser, but yes, I took my little Busse #5 out, and chopped, hacked, rammed the tip in, torqued the tip out, pried apart a log, and performed other evils upon it that would never have happened, had I not read about the tests that Busses had been subjected to.
Interesting that none of this voided the warranty, or damaged the knife (If the knife had failed, I would not have felt that Busse was obligated to me, because this does not fall under my definition of "normal" use). It did give me a tremendous amount of confidence in this knife, though, and that is what I think abusive testing is (or should be) all about. Finding out what products we can absolutely trust to perform under any circumstances we might encounter. The problem for me is not knowing where to draw the line. What seems abusive to me might be daily practice for someone else, and vice versa, so it's hard for me to criticize someone else's criteria.

my long .02
 
Buck knives stands behind their knives. I have a Buck Duke with stag handles that I stupidly gave to a friend to sharpen a few years ago. He used an electric machine made for much bigger knives and half the blade dissapeared.
Buck put in a new blade just for the price of postage. Can't beat that.

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Dave (Phil.4:13)
I Can Do All Things Through Him Who Strengthens Me
Lifter at work: www.profitness.com/Profiles/profileDaveAbramson
 
Wow this is a tough one. A good strong warranty is indeed a selling point for me. The Busse warranty for example is pretty much "If you break it it's warranted". Definitly gives you some confidence. But lets be real. Its a hunk of 1/4 inch steel with little to no point. I use ripping bars that are made of less stock. If I use a Tomes Fighting bowie in the same way as I would the Busse and it breaks should it be replaced. Of course not! Its not designed for the same kind of use.

I found the warranty I read at Newt's page was a turn off but I think it had a lot to do with the tone of it rather than what it actually said. I mean a business has to protect itself from being married to a sale forever. There ARE things that we all know constitute abuse. Throwing a non throwing knife springs to mind. Should a Maker just keep replacing a knife that is repeatedly abused. Great gig!! Then no one would ever need to buy another knife.

However .... if your going to state in your warranty that abuse is not covered then perhaps some guide lines should also be given. Newt's warranty is way open ended for me, Joe Consumer. It says over and over that he will determine what constitutes abuse. So I feel like I am at his mercy when it comes to warranty reconciliation. Nah I dont like that. Tell me what the knife is designed for, What constitutes abusing that knife and that will influence my purchasing decision. If I decide to buy it than at least its limitations have been set forth and understood by all parties rather than; here is a knife and I'll decide after you broke it whether or not you used the knife within its parameters.

A conversation I dont want to have:
"Mr maker I was chopping up some tree limbs for a fire and your knife broke in half"

"Well Joey Consumer that was our lightsaber fighting death model and so your **** out of luck"

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Alex

My Knife Page
 
Thanks for mentioning Mineral Mountain in your list Marion. I believe I am the only one man shop on the list. My guarentee is simple,A life time warrenty, my life! If you tear it up I"ll replace or repair it as long as I"m physically capable. With over 10,000 blades in the market place, I can truthfully say I have had very customers I could not satisfy. You can't please everyone, and some folks just can't be pleased!
I would also like to state that Newt is a very good friend of over 10 years, A more honest man would be hard to find. What he is being forced to do is what most business men are forced to do, whether honest or not, that is to hide behind alot of quasi-legal "BS". It seems some folks would rather hire a lawyer and initiate a law suite, in an attempt to gain much more than they lost, or defame someone, rather than be reasonable and understanding. Honest business men would rather not be subject to these legal manipulations, but as A.G.Russell told me, the bigger you get, the more people will find it profitable to sue you.
Honesty begats honesty!
Thanks for this space to blow off a little steam!

Ted Frizzell
 
I dunno Bronco I guess there could have been a rock or other inclusion in the wood that Cliff was chopping on that caused the damage- who knows.I believe if Newt tested the blade and it was up to spec and Cliff said he damaged it chopping wood I am inclined not to believe Cliff.I have a lot of faith in Newt and his character and I can't say the same about Cliff.I'm just calling it as I see it...
troy
 
I feel obligated to point out that most of the warranty on Newt's site says " talk to me before you send it in." In my experience Newt backs up his blades better than almost everybody. I have personally seen knives sent in for warranty work that were obvious victims of abuse that were covered 100%.
In my opinion Newt is a square shooter and not looking for a way to weasel out of covering a legitimate problem. As Mr. Frizzell pointed out, a man needs to have a way to protect his business from those who would try to take an unfair advantage.
My$0.02

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Although it does not mindfully keep guard in the small mountain fields, the scarecrow does not stand in vain
Bukkoku
 
Quality always comes to the surface. My favorite company, Dillon Precision, (a cartridge reloading press company) has a no-BS warranty policy; if it breaks, they replace it. And they get good publicity from some of the more bizarre stories.
My favorite story with KNIVES comes from a manufacturer of survival knives. One his knives wound up in the possession of a real, working mercenary who wore the knife behind his neck. In an ambush, the knife caught a bullet, it of course broke, but saved the owner's life. The owner returned the knife to the maker just to tell a funny experience.
The maker replaced the knife! He wrote that a simple bullet shouldn't have broken HIS knife!
This is either hubris or a great warranty!--OKG
 
A warranty is very important to me. one that covers defects and normal wear and tear. If you abuse your knife you should be willing to pay to get it fixed. If you use it as a pry bar and it breaks, don't whine to the maker, just pay to get it fixed like you should.
 
Marion,
I think that a strong (short on fine print) warranty is a must. It's important to me that a maker believes in his product enough to stand behind it. I consider the warranty when I buy a knife. I wanted a general beat up knife that I would have a hard time breaking. I bought a Busse Basic #7. Here is what the paper work that came with it says.
Busse Combat Knives are guaranteed against any and ALL MAJOR DAMAGE FOR LIFE.
Thats a knife company that believes in its product. He even guarantees the Resiprene C handle.
If I bought a kitchen knife I wouldnt try and cut down a tree with it either. Use the knife for what it was designed for. I want the maker to stand behind the knife if it fails being used for its intended purpose.

Shawn
 
This is probably a real tough call/gray area for a maker.On one hand he wants to have a warranty that backs up his quality blades,but on the flipside,he doesn't want to leave himself open to people bent on damaging a blade and asking for it to be replaced just because they can.I don't find Newt's warranty out of line but some guidelines would make me feel more comfortable.Funny though,when I buy a "survival knife" wouldn't some of the tasks it may need to perform in a survival situation constitute abuse?If I'm dependent on this tool to survive and it is marketed as such a survival tool,shouldn't I have a right to test the limits to what I feel it may need to endure,before putting it into service as such a tool?Maybe the answer to our question in cases of a warranties that may not be clear to us,is to ask the maker or manufacturer of the knife if it is covered in under xxx circumstances or if used for xxx
tasks?If it is covered under testing conditions?I think though,that makers that just blanket warranty their knives under any circumstances have very few returns and maybe it is worth the small amount of possible returns versus the large amount of sales generated by just having such a warranty.I don't know,just some thoughts!
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Marion David Poff:
So, who has strong (read: short on fine print) warranties?


Do you buy a knife based on it's warranty?

Is it a primary or secondary consideration when considering a purchase?

What does a warranty [] tell you about the blades? </font>
Click to expand...

MOD seems to have a good one, Guaranteed for Life.

I occasionally look at warranties, but first I check the history and performance of the knives. I really like to get my hands on a knife initially, before I decide anything.

Dan

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Go Get 'em Gear

[This message has been edited by Javahed (edited 12-17-2000).]
 
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