Warranty.....

I feel that one company has been omitted who has an extraordinary warranty policy.

Chris Reeve Knives has, on the two occasions I returned knives to them, treated me extraordinarily well.

The first time was when a wood inlaid Sebenza which I purchased appeared to me to have a join in the wood. I contacted them, and Anne said to send it back. After a lot of looking, and photographing, it became apparent to me that it was a growth ring, not a join. I advised them of this, but said that it was not acceptable to me from an esthetic point, but since it wasn't really faulty, I would pay to have it fixed. They put a new wood inlay on the knife, absolutely free.

I purchased a Classic Sebenza which upon scrutiny, had an uneven grind line on one side. I returned this for regrinding, and a new blade was fitted. Absolutely free.

I have no idea what the CR warranty says, but I have a perfect idea of what it means.

Thanks, CRK, you are wonderful folks.

Walt
 
Nice try at the hit and run Troy but I won't go to email just yet. So are you calling my integrity into question too with your free knife statement? If you got something to say Troy, come out and say it, don't hide behind a smilie face. If I saw someone attacking you unfairly in a thread, I would come to your defense also. I did it for Paracelsus in the religion thread and I have never even spoke with him before. I even didn't agree with him. You still haven't provided me with anything to back up your statement that he has an agenda. If you are going to make those kind of accusations, you really should be prepared to back them up. As for my RTAK, I am completely satisfied with it's performance and stake my life on it every time I go into the woods. What I was looking for was for you to comment on the denting. You more or less called Cliff a liar about his results, are you going to also call me one? And as for the 50 people coming to his defense, I have wondered the same thing. Go to the locked thread in the Testing and Review forum about Cliff's test of the Gunting/Escalator and you will see what I had to say. Most people are really sheeple. They will go whichever way the wind blows. Cliff used to be the "in" tester. Everyone wanted his opinion on this knife and that steel. Then when he takes a couple hits from some big names in the industry, all the sheeple go running to the other side of the bandwagon. Then the sheeple start to crawl out and take cheap shots at him. But when they are asked to back it up, they can't. Just like you Troy. Where's your evidence to back up your character assassination? I've asked for it every time I've posted to this thread and the only thing you can come up with is that you feel that Cliff shouldn't be allowed to give his opinion on upcoming knives. Again, did you go after the other people giving their opinions on the Arclite or Busse?
Now, if you want to take it to private email, feel free.

HUNTER3897@WEBTV.NET

Jim McCullough

[This message has been edited by HUNTER3897 (edited 12-21-2000).]
 
Ben- I don't mind this direction, these things probably need to be said.

Hunter- Actually, all those supporters saw the writing on the wall, there is no objective utopian knife forum.

------------------
Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye mdpoff@hotmail.com

My website, guided links, talonite/cobalt alloy info, etc....
http://www.geocities.com/mdpoff

>>--->Bill Siegle Custom Knives<---<<
-http://www.geocities.com/siegleknives-

wait for luck is the same as waiting for death." -Japanese Proverb

"Place you clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark." -Lazarus Long
 
O.K Jim
Since this is Marions thread and he is alright with the change of subject...

I have always had problems with Cliffs methods and have always called them into question when I have seen problems.There was a thread( a year and a half a year ago)where Cliff was testing the toughness of Kydex sheaths by throwing the sheathed knives into the air and letting them fall to the cement.I didn't think this test was a good representation of the sheath strength.I basically believed then and still do that the test was flawed.When I brought it up he gave alot of numbers and scientific explanation as to why it was a good test.If I was the sheath maker and my sheath placed last in a test like this and these test results could affect the way people feel about my work and my sales I would be pissed.That is a major part of the problem here.At the height of Cliff's popularity alot of people wanted Cliff's"stamp" of approval before they bought a knife.This isn't a lot of power but it could affect a small maker monetarily if his product didn't measure up to Cliff's standards.Most knifemakers are hard working family men and women tring to put out a good product.When a guys reviews put these type of people at risk for loss because of questionable tests I have a problem with that.
I think Cliff started with a mission to weed out the HYPE that makers put out about their product.The problem is I don't see many makers hyping their product.I hear Newt's philosophy as "I'm just trying to put a decent knife in the hands of hard working people at a price they can afford."Where's the hype there?I have rarely if ever seen Cliff admit he is wrong even when he is called out on something he is probably wrong about (ergonomics on the arclite).I am going out on a limb here Jim ,but I will say that a properly hardened 1095 steel blade should handle wood chopping.Cliff was talking about an area of damage 1cm deep into the blade of his RCM(1cm!)Is this the kind of damage you have on your RTAK?I will post over in the Shop talk forum today to ask the experts if this is normal for 1095 steel.I dont really question your motives even though you got a freebie from Cliff.(it is hard to hate a guy that gives you a free knife
smile.gif
)I have read alot of your posts and have not seen anything to give me reason to doubt your sincerity.
troy
 
I wasnt going to respond to the latest Cliff Bashing because I thought Marion started a valuable and interesting thread and was hoping it would naturally come back to the original point. There are more than a few makers and companies with a similar warranty so I thought Marion was using Newt's as an example and not nessesarily commenting specifically on Newt and his products. Well now that it is wildly off the trail I may as well come along.
I have read Cliff's reviews for a long time now. Some things that he thought a knife should do I sometimes questioned as is my right and responsibility as a thinking adult. I never felt at any point though like there was any secret conspiracy or agenda. These were things that he felt knife X should be able to perform. Fine. Dont get me wrong .... there were many things in his tests that were things I might do with my knife and was glad to see tested under real world conditions. I dont know that he ever tested a knife very much outside of its claims by the maker or manufacturer. (I may be wrong here as my memory is spotty and he did write a lot of reviews) By this I mean if a Maker claimed this knife was the end of the world knife Cliff tested it like an end of the world knife. To my memory he hasnt done like I suggested you dont and test a finely made well balanced fighter like a Busse style chopping knife. If Im wrong please point to a thread. Im willing to "jump on the bandwagon" but not just because everyone else happens to be on it.

To tell the truth ... Although some of his testing may indeed be extreme in some instances, it geuinely seems it is in a search for knowledge and not for some secret area 51 agenda (I still havent heard a good example or verifiable fact) I would like to offer up an example of this search for information. I have done a couple of reviews on Multi tools. Some of you may have read them? Anyway in light of these reviews I recieved an email from Cliff asking if I would review the new offering from Spyderco.
I accepted and Cliff sent me a Spyderench. I am not one for accepting free anything and dont even like to use store Coupons. I dont like it when someone takes me to lunch and I dont pay. I pay my way !! I told him I would gladly do a review and promplty send the tool back to him when I was done. He insisted I keep it as he doesnt keep review knives. I wrote back an even more strongly worded message explaining that I was not comfortable with this arrangment and his response was "then after the review Give it away" Which is what I did.

PS He paid the shipping

Why would he do this. Why would he send a multi for me to review and then not even accept the shipping costs. Im sorry but before I believe in Lochness monsters I kinda look for the obvious. Maybe he thought that my use of multitools in the environement in which I use them would provide valuable insight and information. (Obviously they are my opinions and your milage may vary as far as the reviews) In the same way that I would love to know from a Jeff Randall type if the latest Jungle knife is all that. Guy goes in the jungle he should know. My staff and I live with our multi's in a variety of conditions. Cliff wanted our insight. Sounds like an agenda to me.
Why wouldnt he accept the tool back or payment for shipping .... Hmmm maybe because he has integrity. Unless someone can point out a specific instance where it clearly shows he is a sellout, some secretly intercepted email from Jerry busse or Spyderco where they discussed payment for services I will just have to believe he is a man with a passion for knives and maybe just maybe tests them a little harder than I and many others feel is nessesary in his persuit of HIS perfect knife.

Cliff and I have not communicated Outside of the three emails exchanged about the Spyderench. Sorry no conspiracies. I owe him no more loyalty than anyone else here on the forums. You dont like the way he tests dont read his reviews. However I fail to find anything malicious or secretive in his testing. Im willing to hear different but not hearsay. Someone SHOW me Im wrong and I'll bring a trumpet to the Bandwagon.
The Spyderench review can be read on my knife page under "News"

------------------
Alex

My Knife Page

[This message has been edited by Boriqua (edited 12-21-2000).]
 
Mike990 said it best. A maker/manufacturer's reputation and integrity is what counts, not the lawyer drivel. And for an excellent review of a knife not yet in existence, please read my review of the Livesay-Van Cook dagger in Newt's forum.

[This message has been edited by Brees (edited 12-21-2000).]
 
Troy,

Thanks for your reply. That is what I was looking for. While I don't agree with you, I appreciate you going into specifics. Marion, thanks for letting us hijack this thread. I do feel that it is somewhat on topic as we are discussing some warranty issues.
The damage (I don't like to call it that) on my RTAK was not as deep as Cliff's. I'm sure I didn't test my blade as hard as Cliff as I didn't set out to see what it could do. I was using it for what it was meant to do- clear a path. Mine was a flattening of the blade along the sweet spot. I personally don't see this as a problem. I would rather see flattening than chipping. The blade did an excellent job of clearing brush and branches and I would recommend it and Newt to anyone. Cliff also has said that he would recommend Newt without reservations. That doesn't sound like he thinks Newt's blades are hype.
As far as Cliff's tests go, I don't see them as science, but I also don't see anyone else doing what he does either. His tests and reports are exhaustive to the point of almost being boring in parts. He tries his damndest to keep them unbiased. Do I think there is no bias in his reviews? No, but I also don't feel it is humanly possible to test things without a little personal bias. You bring your own personal feelings and knowledge base to any test. That is a very hard thing to weed out. Cliff believes in his methods and in how he tests. Of course it will be hard to admit you are wrong when you put as much effort as he does into his testing. If you want to see him eat crow, find the Project 1 test in the Chris Reeve forum. He serves himself up a big ol' plate of it there. I have learned a whole h*e*l*l of a lot about what makes a good survival blade from reading his reviews. You don't get those kind of reviews in the magazines.
Alex, thanks for writing so eloquently what I have been trying to say. By the way, he wouldn't accept any money for shipping from me either.

Jim McCullough
 
Jim :

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I'm sure I didn't test my blade as hard as Cliff</font>

Fairly critical point. After christams I am going to buy a set of hardwood dowels and by measuring the depth of penetration of a chop and the size I can crack off at a set length, *roughly* quantify the force that I am using. There are more precise ways to do this of course but I want a way that anyone can do fairly easy and thus check the amount of force they are using compared to me.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Cliff believes in his methods and in how he tests.</font>

At the time that I do them, yes, I feel that they are the best that I can do (with various reservations). However, if you go back across the reviews you will see them changing constantly in the ways things are done as well as what is done. They are far from perfect which is why I can guarantee that if you read a review a year from now it won't read like a current one as my methods and interpretation will have long since changed.

Alex :

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I fail to find anything malicious or secretive in his testing</font>

In general, the argument is that if I don't like someone I will write a review biased against them. In reality I would vastly prefer to review blades from people I really didn't like. I don't mind at all being positive about them so the review is smooth. However when I am working with a review from a person that I do like, it is not comfortable at all talking about the shortcomings of the work.

For example, after I showed a friend the webbing attachment on the Machax and how I bent the riviot and commented that the screws on the Battle Mistress sheath were much stronger he noted that yes they were but that without any washers the webbing would slip rather easily over them on a hard pull.

I tried this and he was right, I easily pulled the webbing over one of the screws, could have done the rest. I added this to the Machax review (in progress). Now I like Busse and respect his view on knives and it bothered me to decribe how I pulled the webbing off of the sheath. However it would have bothered me more not to write it.

Concering the Kydex sheath testing, here is the link for reference :

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/001162.html

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 12-21-2000).]
 
Cliff I think the idea of using dowels is a good one.I believe during testing one should try to create strict uniformity as much as possible.Did you ever consider the possibilty that you hit a rock or other inclusion in the junipers you were chopping?
I just feel like Newt has been in business long enough that producing choppers that fall apart while chopping wood would not be a wise business move for him.He sends out alot of these blades and I havent heard outside of yours and Jim's reports anything like this.
I feel bad about questioning your integrity (I could have chosen kinder words ) the way I did.How do you feel about peoples responses to you and the change of attitude over the last year and a half?Do you feel responsible at all or do you think you have been treated unfairly?
troy
 
Who sells the most, will have the most returns? Benchmade are letting the side down a little IMHO. They push quality quality quality, and often are ok at best. Spyderco are cheaper and far more constant. For the record I own a number of both.

BM seem to be getting a bit better.

W.A.

------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
 
Troy,

Please don't misquote me. I never said anything even remotely close to my RTAK "falling apart while chopping wood." I don't know how many different ways I can say it, but I will keep trying. My blade flattened on the sweet spot. I was doing full power chops on birch. I was not disappointed nor did I feel that I should bring it to Newt's attention. There is one thing I am wondering about though. You mentioned that Cliff's Kydex sheath test is what bothered you about the way Cliff did his tests. I clicked on Cliff's link so I could refresh my memory. You did post in that thread. I am wondering why you didn't mention anything about your dislike for his methods in that thread. On the contrary, you were joking around with Cliff about treating his blades better or you would have to take them away. Did you realize that you didn't like his methods after the Cliff bandwagon tipped over and you fell out?

Jim McCullough
 
The link Cliff gave was to his original post.The thread in which I brought up my objections referred to Cliff's post but was in a post about the value of knife testing possibly started by Cobalt.I will try to dig around for it.I believe I said that Newt would not be able to stay in business as long as he has by making a knife that falls apart chopping wood.I simply said about your knife and Cliffs that they were the only ones I had ever heard about that had problems.Not that those particular knives "fell apart".I hope this clears things up a bit
smile.gif

troy
 
Thanks Alex -I think in the spirit of fairness it is always advisable to go to the pros to get opinions when there is even a shred of doubt.And they call me one of the bandwagon crowd...
smile.gif

troy
 
Ben E. Hana:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Did you ever consider the possibilty that you hit a rock or other inclusion in the junipers you were chopping?</font>

Yes I considered it, it was probably the first thing I thought of. However after examining the edge close up (10X mag) I concluded that it was not likely. If I had struck something much harder than the wood the very edge itself should have taken significant damage and at least the coating should have been scratched.

I have damaged blades in this way before. The Machax takes similar damage of a much reduced scale (sub mm). I had a forward curving khukuri from HI that had damage similar to the RCM but I kept using it until the wood split to give Bill Martino an extreme failure case. The damage is caused by the blade impacting with the edge above the wood and the blade not being strong enough to resist the load without breaking or bending.

There are a couple of ways it can happen, depending on the ways the branches interlace you can chop through one and then slam into another at a bad angle. Or depending on grip security and or fatigue, after you shear through one branch the blade can twist enough so as to allow a bad angle impact on another stick. Fatigue really brings up the probability of such hits, but I have done them on occasion when fresh because of twists or just a poorly aimed swing.

Here is the thread about precision and such that I think Ben may be referring to for those curious :

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/001471.html

In short the argument is that more precision should be used. In general this is of course a good thing. However there are several problems to consider, extrapolation of very precise measurements on a very small sample, difficulty and or abstraction of the overly controlled work, gain in information as compared to time (and $cost$) involved etc., as well as the huge misunderstanding about how errors propogate through the different effects and how they are effected by the volume of the work being done.

And as well, it is critical to think about what you are doing and what you are trying to be able to deduce from it. In general you need to determine the functional level of precision needed to draw a conclusion. This is never infinite, there will always be uncertainty and you should be able to determine what size can be tolerated. For example :

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum65/HTML/000205.html

The variance in the results I was getting was probably larger than the difference I was seeing. However this was not critical to me as the question being posed contains a large variance test (angle of swing, force etc.). Because of this I was just doing some rough work to see if the difference was significant or not. In my opinion it wasn't as the damage only increased by .1 mm or so if it increased at all. To me it wasn't necessary to know it to any greater precision than that because it would have gone to a limit higher than necessary. Similar if someone asked me how much two blades weighed I would give them the answer to the nearest gram. The fractional weight difference is hardly a functional difference in regards to blade performance. However, you (speaking generally) are of course free to do a much more precise piece of work. If it is done, in general, I will link to it from what I have done.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">How do you feel about peoples responses to you and the change of attitude over the last year and a half?</font>

Personally I view them as positive as I was starting to note that what I said was sometimes accepted because of me saying it. This is very, very, very, very bad and something that I have tried very hard to avoid. All it leads to is me being able hype products which I don't want. If people don't question what I say then the amount of information that can be gained from what I do is drastically reduced. It also induces the possibility that I will make a large mistake in method or interpretation which would go unchecked and thus vastly misrepresent the performance of a blade which I don't want.

However in general there are negative consequences as similar attacks bother some people. There is a lot of information that Bladeforums never sees because people will not post it because they don't want reactions similar to mine. I have recieved a lot of email mainly with negative commentary about blades which I have learned a lot from but which obviously is limited to me and the individual who did the work. While I am very grateful for this, often times it makes discussions very difficult as my conclusions incude data that I can't release publically.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Do you feel responsible at all or do you think you have been treated unfairly?</font>

Obviously I am responsible to what I say and this is what people are responding to. As for the reactions, they are to be expected and I understand completely where it comes from. Concerning the "right and wrong" of it, this is a personal and highly subjective issue about character and not about blades. The consequence to me is mainly that I have no desire to work with certain makers. However I on occasion do get offered to review their blades from individuals and I might accept one of the next ones not because of the performance of the blade but more so as I am rather curious to know if my feelings for them would bias what I do.

-Cliff



[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 12-22-2000).]
 
Thanks for the link Cliff.That was the one I was referring to.
Also you make the statement that it wasn't very likely that you hit a rock or other inclusion in the wood -this causes me concern.
People may think I am bashing you Cliff and I have made some strong statements but I guess I just want to make sure you realize the strange position you sometimes put makers in when you test their knives.
Let's use Newt and your RCM as an example:
here is a maker who has a good reputation for making a good product.In questioning the performance of the knife he told you he keeps one behind the seat of his truck and when someone wants to test one out he lets them chop away on some old dried railroad ties he has outside the shop.All the guy has gotten back is good feedback on the design.So you buy one to test.It arrives late because of a few snafus but you get it in your hands.The first day you take it out you manage to destroy the blade.Now you run to the computer and tell everyone who sees the post how you destroyed the blade chopping juniper.You never mention that you could have accidentally hit something else with the blade while chopping.That is never even brought up as a possibilty even though now you say it is "unlikely" that happened.
How do you think the maker should feel?He tests the blade and finds it is up to spec.Then in a very generous move gives you your money back.At this point how can the guy do anything but question your motives.
The maker is put in a very strange position:
Should he A.give you another one to test in hopes of getting a good review and selling a couple more knives.At this point your motives are suspect and the guy takes a chance on you ruining this one and running to the computer to tell everyone.And then the guy might have to repace a second blade.Or B.give you your money back(which he did)and hope you go away and leave him and his sterling reputation alone.A year later you bring up the post agin with the new warrant info out of the blue.

Cliff you have been taking alot of hits around here lately and I pose the question again .Does it bother you that people have been questioning your integrity and do you feel that you bear any responsibility or are you being unjustly persecuted?

troy
Fair enough Cliff.I cant expect a more honest answer to my final question than you gave and I respect you for answering it.


[This message has been edited by Ben E. Hana (edited 12-22-2000).]
 
Ben :

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">You never mention that you could have accidentally hit something else with the blade while chopping.</font>

No because of reasons I stated in the above it was something that I discounted almost immediately. There were no scratches on the flats nor impact flattening of the edge. Any metal or rock contact hard enough to dent the primary grind would have removed the coating and any straight on contact would have flattened the edge. Noting the size of the dents, I would have also heard and such contact as well. If I was to include every possibility in what I wrote and the reasons I discounted them then I would not have time to do any actual work.

In regards to what the maker should do, if I (or anyone) was intentionally misrepresting their product then obviously giving a replacement blade would not solve the problem. However I have damaged lots of blades, not everyone assumes that it is because I am biased, this goes for makers as well as users.

If I really had a problem with Livesay and was "out to get him" why didn't I accept one of the RTAKs I was offered to review (before and after I used the RCM). Why would I include in my review references to several positive revies? Answer - because I don't have anything against Livesay and I wanted people to have a more complete picture of the behavior than just what I found. I bought the RCM for a couple of reasons, primarily because I was interested in the geometry (thinner than the BM and slightly longer) and was curious if it would be durable enough for what I needed it to do.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">A year later you bring up the post agin with the new warrant info out of the blue.</font>

I updated the review and the thread in the forum which I do on a regular basis if there is a significant change to what I have said. Sometimes this is negative and sometimes it is positive. If Busse Combat changed thier warrenty I would do the same, same goes for anyone else.

-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 12-22-2000).]
 
Thanks Cliff.While I can't say I don't have doubts still,you always answer the questions and I respect you for that.It is nice to see that you realise the effects your work has on people.It is comforting to see a human side to your writing as that is something that rarely comes out in your reviews and might play a small part in your P.R. "problems".seasons Greetings and good luck to you in your endeavors.
smile.gif
troy
smile.gif
 
While this has been a topic of discussion before, I can't help but get the feeling that a lot of people still fail to realize that chopping the medium to small diameter branches of a mature and/or dead hardwood tree is one of the most stressful cutting tasks a knife can be called on to do in the wild. Believe it or not, completely chopping down a 10 foot diameter redwood tree is probably easier on a blade than limbing out one small dead seasoned maple tree. Chopping down the redwood would certainly take a hell of a lot longer, but by and large it would just be a series of impacts absorbed by a sizeable portion of the cutting edge into "relatively" soft wood. The limbs of the maple tree, on the other hand, multiply the force of impact by directing a blow on a hard material to a small section of the edge.

It is for this reason that I don't find results such as those obtained by Cliff and Jim to be so surprising. Remember, Cliff's "day" of testing on this hardwood medium probably represents many months or years worth of exposure for the average camper/hiker. And to be fair to Newt, I doubt that this is specifically the type of hardwood to which he was referring in his discussion with Cliff, or for which his RTAK was specifically designed. Many of the folks that are hardcore users of the RTAK and RCM (people like Jeff Randall and numerous law enforcement anti-drug task force members) spend a majority of their time attacking somewhat less dense hardwood foliage that is still alive, and in this scenario it appears that their tools serve them quite well.

Likewise, I have no doubt that Newt could easily design and build a blade with an alternate blade material and/or edge geometry that Cliff could use to limb out seasoned hardwood all day long. But, it wouldn't be called an RCM or an RTAK, and the requisite design changes would probably compromise its performance on the other types of tasks for which the RCM and RTAK is relied upon most often.

Bottom line- Newt makes a great product at a fair price which he stands behind, and Cliff conducts rigorous tests. I don't see why either man's reputation need be impugned based on what we've seen here. Happy Holidays.
smile.gif


------------------
Semper Fi

-Bill
 
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