Warranty.....

Normark · Dec 17, 2000

Hey Guys...

I don't know about all this stuff...

All I want to know is if Ted Frizzell is related to Ms. Frizzell from The Magic School Bus ???

ROTFLMAO

ttyle

Eric...

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On/Scene Tactical
Leading The Way In Quality Synthetic Sheathing

Ted Frizzell · Dec 17, 2000

Glad to be here Marion, have been lurking around for a few months, and gotta say Ya'll got the best "damn" web sit going! Keep up the good work, nothing like sharing information thats important to all of us.
Of course Ms. Frizzell and I are related Eric, from what I here we all are!

Ted

medusaoblongata · Dec 18, 2000

I'm not too worried about warranties. I guess that's because I've never needed to use one. Busse's warranty makes a statement that means a lot, but I wouldn't buy a Busse just because of the warranty - I would buy one just because of what I've heard about how much abuse they can take without even getting dull. Newt's warranty linked at the beginning of this thread, just sounds like he's trying to cover his ass if he ever needs to. I would still expect him to fix any knife that broke when it shouldn't have. A maker's customer service reputation means a lot more to me than the fine print of their warranty. I've heard numerous stories of companies fixing or replacing knives that broke due to circumstances not explicitly covered in the text of the warranty - it matters more what they do and less what the fine print says. In a similar discussion a while back in the CRK forum, someone was complaining about some of the fine print/stipulations in their official warranty policy, but, IIRC, someone from the company said that there was only one knife sent in for warranty that they wouldn't fix for free, and that was because it was a Sebenza that had been thrown extensively. So, despite what their official warranty policy says, they will cover any reasonable damage. I think most major makers will do the same, regardless of what kind of lawyer language they use to cover their ass.

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Jason aka medusaoblongata
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"I have often laughed at the weaklings who call themselves kind because they have no claws"

- Zarathustra

Steve-O · Dec 17, 2000

I agree with Jason, I never look at the warranty, but I do expect a person/company to back up their product.

I have no problem with Newts warranty, voiding a warranty because of abuse is normal in 99% of the business world.

Why should Newt repair/replace a knife that has been used for other than 'knifely' purposes? As for guidelines...I think I would trust Newt to know when his blades have been abused.

Steve-O

Marion David Poff · Dec 17, 2000

Well, it seems that word of this thread has made it's way around. I sometimes forget how quickly word can get around.

Newt emailed me, and, no worries, all is well, he mentioned that he might stop in to give a word or two. But just in case there may be mis-understanding out there....

I have nothing against Newt, his knives, his businees, or his warranty. I believe him to be man of integrity, who will do his best to treat all his customers in a moral and ethical fashion.

In regards to his warranty, the only thing I might disagree with is the lack of a general criteria by which apropriate/inapropriate use is to be determined.

Also, I would point to the likes of AG Russell and Busse as the standards of the total warranty/guarantee. And they are still in business.

Like others have posted, I see a warranty as a testament to the confidence one can put in a product. And, while 'we' may all have a knowledge of Newt's integrity, if I was unfamiliar with the 'word' about Newt, and I was thinking of buying one of his blades, that warranty would give me pause.

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Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye mdpoff@hotmail.com

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Cliff Stamp · Dec 18, 2000

Ben :

If guys like Cliff are determined to bust up a makers knives and then want a refund in the name of knife testing

I used the RCM limbing out trees which while being one of the standard "tests" I do for a particular class of blades, is hardly artificial. As for demanding a refund, I demanded nothing, I simply asked Newt if what I saw was the expected behavior.

As for "reviewing" blades I have never used, this as well is false. I have commented on the behavior I would expect of blades based on listed specifications but the only reviews I have wrote are on blades I have used for an extended period of time - usually a minimum of several months but often much longer.

Marion :

What does a warranty like the above tell you about the blades?

As simple as I can put it - there are makers both custom and production that offer full warrenties. The blade will do what they describe or you are covered and they will be very frank about what it can and can not do. Based on that I simply don't see any reason to buy anything else.

I should clarify though I don't actually ask outright what the warrenty is if I am discussing a blade with a custom maker. I go by how he handles questions about the blade.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 12-18-2000).]

the4th · Dec 19, 2000

Newt's written warranty wouldn't keep me from buying one of his knives. I have owned enough of his products and spent enough time with him (on the phone and in person) to slay any doubts I had about his service or knives.

I've dealt with the Frizzel's via the internet and have the same warm fuzzies about their products and service.

Written warranties suck. But they are there to protect the best interests of the manufacturer. No matter what type of customer service goals you set for your company, no matter what your "mission statement" is, running a business is about making money. Period.

I can't see Newt or any other manufacturer giving away knives to people who abuse and break them and expect to stay in business long.

Bill Engvall said it well when he stated that stupid warnings wouldn't be on products had someone not already tried it. Don't eat the contraceptive jelly. Don't use the blowdryer in the shower. Turn off motor before replacing the fan belt. Don't use your $1200.00 Jot Sing Khalsa one of a kind art folder as a throwing knife.

Contrary to popular belief the customer is not always right and I don't see a problem with a manufacturer deciding what "abuse" is. The only exception I have to that rule so far is the "dissasembly voids your warranty" tag on some boxes out there.

Griffon · Dec 19, 2000

Originally posted by the4th:
I can't see Newt or any other manufacturer giving away knives to people who abuse and break them and expect to stay in business long.

...

Contrary to popular belief the customer is not always right and I don't see a problem with a manufacturer deciding what "abuse" is.

I don't see how a simple "warranted against defects in material and manufacturing" would require someone to give away knives to abusers. If you do things with a knife it's not supposed to handle and it breaks it's not because it's defective, is it?

If the maker has an "in our opinion" clause, then in effect they don't have a warranty, but a policy to fix things if they feel like it. I've no reason to believe that's what they intend it to say, but by formulating it this way it may look to some people like they're trying to weasel out of responsibilities, so another wording might be better.

How about:
"Our knives are fully warranted against defects in material and manufacturing. They may not stand up to use outside of what they're intended for, which doesn't mean they're defective. The instructions for each model says what they're intended for."

Boriqua · Dec 19, 2000

Very Well put Griffon

Alex

Ben E. Hana · Dec 19, 2000

Cliff you failed to comment on my other point: your credibility.How do you put a review in perspective if you no longer trust the reviewer?Would you eat a meal prepared by a cook you don't trust?I remember the events leading up to your RCM review.The delivery was delayed on a few occasions and finally you were going to cancel the order and found out that it had been sent and decided to go ahead with the review.right?
I had a feeling that Newt's knife wouldn't fare very well in your review.I have seen you lose your moderator status and make many comments that have made me question your integrity as a reviewer.I guess my concern is less about Newt and his warranty and more about you and your integrity.

I'm sorry Marion for hogging your thread and bringing it off topic.I can start another thread. Who reviews the reviewers.I think this is very important topic.

troy

Cliff Stamp · Dec 19, 2000

Ben :

How do you put a review in perspective if you no longer trust the reviewer?

You ignore it.

-Cliff

Newt Livesay · Dec 19, 2000

I am going to make one comment here about the warranty of my knives, and or other products that we build here at my company.

First off I have a very good warranty in effect because I build a very good product.

Some one said they thought my warranty was to harsh? My warranty was written by lawyers to protect me and my company, and not to be liked by someone who may or may not understand my manufacturing business.

I could charge 3 to 6 hundred percent over cost on my product and have a pie in the sky warranty. But I have a warranty that is fair to me and my company, and legitimate customer claims.

There are certain customers who have an axe to grind against different makers, companies, or what ever, and no matter what that person or company does these customers cant be satisfied. (WE KNOW)

I make a good product, and I have a good warranty. I stand behind both, I will make the decision on replacement, denial, etc, of products as long as I own this company.

Thanks to our many customers for their support.
Newt Livesay

Here is how to contact me if you do not understand any thing I have said here.
WKC, Inc.
202 Raines Roads
Siloam Springs, AR 72716
501-549-3356 0900-1600 M-F CTZ
501-549-3357 24/7 FAX

Mike990 · Dec 19, 2000

The wording of a Warranty does not impress me or depress me one bit. You cant be in business long without developing a reputation for a good product or a bad one. For being a stand up guy or a cranky ego/ripoff artist. Your reputation is your warranty.

If I hear Newt Livesay makes a great product, and stands behind it, I could care less what boiler plate he puts out as his warranty. I know that if I explain to Newt what happened, he will check the knife out and tell me if it was him or me. I will pay for it if it was me.

He has too much pride in his work to hose me.
So do most knife companies. Far more pride than the average maker of anything else.

Spyderco, Benchmade, Rekat, Camillus, Sog, all stand up. The knife boards are replete with stories. I have some too. And these are just production companies. Not custom makers. It gets out quick who the whiners and the winners are.

Also lets get real here. I just ordered an HKR from Newt. About my 5th knife from him.
Its like 200 bucks. Not chump change but not bad. Now lets say worse case scenario, I break it and Newt says its my fault. I buy another or....get pissed and dont buy anymore If I am convinced it wasnt my fault. How much am I out???? 200 bucks minus the time I used it.

Now I dont know about you, but the car repair guys seem to charge 200 smackers for almost any repair. A crown for your tooth almost 400 bucks. A new Garage door opener 300.00 bucks. On and on and on. Its not like you just lost your entire nest egg. Its only a knife for crying out loud. If you cant afford to use and replace it, dont buy it or dont use it.

There are guys out there that think a knife is a pry bar, chain saw, and ax all rolled into one. That should not be the makers fault.

Knives are to cut stuff and the other uses should only be to a modest extent when you have to. Abuse is half the reason makers tend to design blades that are often too thick to cut well. -mike

Griffon · Dec 20, 2000

Originally posted by Newt Livesay:
My warranty was written by lawyers to protect me and my company, and not to be liked by someone who may or may not understand my manufacturing business.

So it's not written to be a part of the way you promote your products, because you don't think you need it to?

eaglehi1 · Dec 20, 2000

To me the warranty says a lot about the company that makes a product whether it's a knife or a car. The maker must stand behind his product. It is a decideing factor I use when buying anything.It is not a question of whether ytou can afford to lose the money it is a question of standing behind your product period.Have some guidlines in the warranty and spell it out that would be protecting yourself, and eliminate alot of questions.

HUNTER3897 · Dec 21, 2000

Troy,

With all do respect, your statements are pretty ludicrous. You say "Without putting a finer point on it". Perhaps you could do all of us, and especially Cliff, a favor, and "Put a finer point on it" before you impugn Cliff's character and drag his name through the mud. Please show us some quotes where his "agenda" shows through. What exactly is his "agenda" anyway? I keep reading posts that talk about it but noone seems to have the ability to go beyond making that statement. Please let me know what it is so I can jump on the bandwagon and run Cliff out of town. And if you are going to say that his agenda is to grub for free blades, save it. Cliff gives away the free blades he gets for testing. How do I know? I have one sitting in my safe. It's a TOPS Steel Eagle. I didn't know Cliff from Adam when he posted his review of it. I asked him a few questions about it and he told me that he usually gives away the blades he gets for free and then asked if I would like to have it. If he is doing blade tests so that he can get free blades, someone better tell him he's going about it the wrong way. You know what else I find odd? On the one hand, the heavy hitters in the knife world say that Cliff's tests are meaningless and laughable, on the other hand we have you, who says that Cliff is the Great and Powerful Oz who has the ability to change the way companies do business. Which is it? Probably neither. Cliff is just a guy who has a passion for knives and is searching for the best steel and maker to satisfy that passion. What the H*E*L*L is everyone so afraid of? Are people scared that the "secret vodoo" of steels is about to be revealed?
Also, why do you find it so hard to believe that Cliff's RCM dented on hardwood? I have an RTAK that dented while I was doing a lot of full power chops on a birch tree that I was building a deerstand in. It is 1095 by the way. It isn't INFI or 3V. I don't feel that this is an unexpected behavior for 1095.
Therefore, I'm not disappointed. One of the reasons I bought the RTAK, (besides Newt's and Jeff's excellent reps) was because it wasn't going to break the bank. It is a user knife that isn't pretty and demands to be put to work. I just got a digital camera and am hoping to post a short review with some pics. I am satisfied with it's performance and I feel very comfortable strapping it on as my survival knife. Cliff had different expectations for his knife and it didn't measure up. Newt took care of him. End of story.

"Troy is a fake. He doesn't give us his full name. He uses an alias as his forum name. He has an agenda about knife testers. He beats his dog and kids."

See Troy, making the statements is the easy part. Why don't you back them up now.

Jim McCullough

Ben E. Hana · Dec 20, 2000

"Troy is a fake.He doesn't give us his full name.He uses an alias as his forum name.He has an agenda about knife testers.He beats his dog and kids.
See Troy,making the statements is the easy part.Why don't you back them up now.
Jim Mc Cullough"

O.K Jim I'll try my best

my name is Troy Gilbert Webber The middle name was a mistake. My mom thought that my great great grandfather was named Gilbert but was mistaken.It was really just a nickname.I live in a town called Normal in the great state of Illinois.And I am indeed real.(I cut myself last week and bled all over the place)therefore disproving your notion that I am "a fake"

I don't have an agenda about knife testers .The only one I have a problem with is Cliff.I think if a guy is going to promote himself as an unbiased knife tester he should actually handle a blade before commenting on its ergonomics.(arclite thread)Or berfore touting the upcoming Busse folder as the strongest folder it should actually exist

(strongest folder thread)As for beating my dog and kids.Go ahead check my dog's ass for bruises.you surely won't find any.But you are welcome to look.

troy

HUNTER3897 · Dec 20, 2000

OK Troy Webber,

You have proved me wrong. You are indeed a real person.

Now could you provide the proof of Cliff's agenda? Do you also feel that Cliff isn't entitled to offer his opinion on upcoming knives? There were plenty of people saying that the Arclite looked like a great design and should perform well. How come noone is riding those people for offering up their positive opinions about it before they have held it? Are people only allowed to offer up positive opinions about an upcoming product? By the way, I feel Cliff is wrong about the Arclite, but I still feel he shouldn't be held to a different standard than anyone else.
I am still curious to here what you think his agenda is. You also didn't comment about my experience with the RTAK.

Jim McCullough...happy that he is indeed conversing with a real person who is a Normalite.

Ben E. Hana · Dec 20, 2000

Sorry to post again but I wanted to clear up one point.I have never believed Cliff was trying to get free knives.All of my personal feelings about Cliff's integrity are based on things I have seen him write on these forums.I think reviewers should be very careful about how they comment on the "expected behavior"of a particular knife.(this is Cliff's cop out when he is called out about making comments on knives he hasn't handled or don't even exist)So don't blame me for dragging Cliffs integrity through the mud.He has done a fine job on his own.I am truly touched that you would stand up and fight for Cliffs honor though.Very noble.He hasn't given me any free knives though so I don't feel any attachment to him one way or the other.

A year ago a thread like this would have brought out 50 people going to bat for Cliff's honor.Gee I wonder where they are now.
troy

Ben E. Hana · Dec 20, 2000

Jim i don't know what to tell you about your RTAK.Send it back to Newt?
I guess we see things differently:I believe if a guy is serious about making knife reviews a hobby he should also be zealous about maintaining his integrity.period.
If you want to email me so this thread can go back to discussion about warranty please feel free to do so.orthotroy@netzero.net
thanks, troy