Was told that Victorinox suspended domestic distribution

Some dealers (notably, Sharp Edge in South Africa, who also happen to be Victorinox distributor in their country) are contractually prevented from exporting Victorinox products they buy directly from Victorinox. Once the product is sold to the "general public", however, there is no export restrictions. If there were (as is the case with some computer equipment and other products that could have military applications), they would have been stated by the retailer at the time of purchase. And, on top of it all, don't forget that Tim, as a person, not FVEAP, can buy and sell anything he wants ;)

On the subject of MAP, I strongly believe that this is the right thing for Victorinox to do. In the recent years we have enjoyed clearance prices on SAKs at a number of B&M stores, as they were stopping to carry Victorinox products. I simply cannot see a B&M store with staff, rent, and all the other costs competing on price with a one-person drop-ship operation on the Internet. As far as competing on service, I can see many customers coming into the store, handling SAKs, taking staff's time, and then turning around and buying the product online. Introduction of the MAP, along with elimination of distributors is intended to level the playing field, so that the competition is no longer barely on price. If you read Victorinox company history, you will see that their values have always been in taking care of their employees, partners, and customers, even if it goes against the "free market principles".
 
supratentorial said:
Does the policy allow dealers to buy from other dealers and resell overseas?

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ufox9al said:
Some dealers (notably, Sharp Edge in South Africa, who also happen to be Victorinox distributor in their country) are contractually prevented from exporting Victorinox products they buy directly from Victorinox. Once the product is sold to the "general public", however, there is no export restrictions. If there were (as is the case with some computer equipment and other products that could have military applications), they would have been stated by the retailer at the time of purchase. And, on top of it all, don't forget that Tim, as a person, not FVEAP, can buy and sell anything he wants ;) ...
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Are you saying that the Amazon purchase was not for distribution as FVEAP or just suggesting the possibility?
 
supratentorial said:
ufox9al said:
Some dealers (notably, Sharp Edge in South Africa, who also happen to be Victorinox distributor in their country) are contractually prevented from exporting Victorinox products they buy directly from Victorinox. Once the product is sold to the "general public", however, there is no export restrictions. If there were (as is the case with some computer equipment and other products that could have military applications), they would have been stated by the retailer at the time of purchase. And, on top of it all, don't forget that Tim, as a person, not FVEAP, can buy and sell anything he wants ;)
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Are you saying that the Amazon purchase was not for distribution as FVEAP or just suggesting the possibility?
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I have no knowledge whatsoever what Tim and FVEAP do or don't do. I just know that FVEAP is Vic./Wenger Authorized Daealer, and that I buy the majority of my SAKs from him.
 
I find the discussion about B&M stores interesting. There are NO B&M stores here that allow you to handle the knives. I know that's true in other parts of the country as well. Therefore, I see no reason to buy from them. I purchase many things on line from stores that have good return policies. For me, I would try to boycott any company that supports the MAP because I believe it violates the free market principle. I suspect that that is likely the sentiment in much of the US. I do respect the other opinions but I think stores may need to develop a new business model.
 
Not sure about the fine state of Georgia, but here in Ontario, Canada, a number of stores have unpackaged SAKs on display, that can be handled. Regardless, this forum is probabaly not the right place for a full-blown debate about the value of B&M stores at the age of online purchasing. I do have a brief comment about the "free-market principle". Putting aside the purely ideological nature of the "free market economy is always the way to go" position, by definition, a "free market" is the market that is free government intervention. In the corporate world, however, if you look at the majority of contracts between manufacturers and retailers, you will very often, if not always, find clauses specifying how the retailer is to be marketing the brand as a whole, or a specific product. The MAP is just one of such clauses.
 
I work in a much different field, but several of my products have MAP, and I agree with it.

The free market being what it is, is all great. I love it. However, having a potential customer come in, farm me for info, take up my time, then go online and buy the product online for a couple bucks cheaper does not pay the rent. Furthermore, the one-man-drop-shippers don't have families to feed. They can survive on the lean profits. A B&M cannot.

So, I guess B&M should just go out of business. However, that would be all well and good except that when your online product breaks, where do you take it? Does the company offer a return policy? Do they make repairs? Will the cover any shipping?

The is no such thing as a free lunch, and I think everyone (at least my field) benefits from not having to get into a price war in order to serve our customers best.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Steely_Gunz said:
I work in a much different field, but several of my products have MAP, and I agree with it.

The free market being what it is, is all great. I love it. However, having a potential customer come in, farm me for info, take up my time, then go online and buy the product online for a couple bucks cheaper does not pay the rent. Furthermore, the one-man-drop-shippers don't have families to feed. They can survive on the lean profits. A B&M cannot.

So, I guess B&M should just go out of business. However, that would be all well and good except that when your online product breaks, where do you take it? Does the company offer a return policy? Do they make repairs? Will the cover any shipping?

The is no such thing as a free lunch, and I think everyone (at least my field) benefits from not having to get into a price war in order to serve our customers best.

Just my 2 cents.
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Great Points, why I usually buy my knives and guns from a few B&M stores I deal with regularly. I don't mind paying a few extra bucks to someone that has taken their time to demo/discuss a product and acutally provides service both before and after the sale. The way I see it, I'm benefitting and essentially paying for better service and the ability to comparison shop products in person, no idea how many times I've seen a product that looked cool online and when I see it in a shop I pass on it. Also the local storeowner/economy is benefitting by me spending my money there rather than on-line.
 
I respect your opinions but when the price increases 30% to 40% I think the cost outweighs the benefit. A good example is the Supertinker. Used to be 19.99 at Walmart now it's 34.99. My take is that if the customer values that service they will pay extra for it. Let the market decide. Just my opinion.
 
I don't think we can stop companies from selling their product for more money, as long as they don't monopolize the market. Their MAP model puts them at a pricing disadvantage against other manufacturers that don't follow the same practice.

Right now I'm seeing the market coalesce into online vs. brick & mortar.

If you're a manufacturer and you choose brick & mortar, you sacrifice price leadership for more exposure to the general population. You got more exposure because every mom & pop b&m stores can afford to carry your product. You hope that more exposure = more sale. Let's face it, knife enthusiasts on this forum make up for a very small percentage of the population. The vast majority of people out there buy only whatever is available from their local store. Unless you're anal retentive like me (and like most collectors), most men can't stand the idea of researching and shopping for prices. They get in the store, pick a knife, and get out.

If you choose online, your products sell for less than the competitors (also more sale), but no brick and mortar store smaller than walmart, target, and the like can afford to carry you. You're limited to mostly online sales and at the complete mercy of extremely picky online reviewers and forum members.

This is why manufacturers with well-established names choose MAP. They are betting that their good name can still carry them even at higher brick & mortar prices.
 
coyotebc said:
Dead set against MAP.
It is price fixing pure and simple
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Not really. Price fixing laws exist to prevent consumers from being gouged by agreements made amongst parties selling the same product.

A better example of price fixing would be all gas companies agreeing that they are going to sell gas at a rate of $8.00/gallon. This would mean that all of those companies were able to make far more profit vs the normal market price.

What Vic. is doing is different. They are essentially saying "If you sell this product below a certain price, I will not sell you anymore". If the dealers don't want to buy the blades anymore and honor this agreement, they don't have to. If the consumer doesn't want to buy the blades for the dealer's prices, they don't have to.
 
By cutting out the distributors they are attempting to control the price at a higher level.
By not allowing the distributors to sell at 30 to 50% less then their dealers they are fixing prices the same as gas companies.
 
swissbianco said:
it was an step in the right direction, some "dealers" did sell sak way under the suggested mrsp and do compromise the work of the manufacturer to level the pricefield and get an fair price for theyr hard laber manufactured swiss quality tools. it dont matter if that dealers do for charity or not, the prices must be within level. its plain simple not fair against the manufacturer and its employees to do that!
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I call this price fixing
 
swissbianco said:
the problem is that if an knife is mrsp $ 100 and some dealers, charity or not or for any reason, sell it for say $ 60, then the "good" dealers cant sell theyr knives anymore or at least way harder. the customers think because you get that knife so cheap, its bad quality and or dont sell well, witch hurts the manufacturer and sooner or later hurt the market of his product. in some regards this is joust not working.


+B
swissbianco.com
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I guess I should thank you seeing as how I am to stupid too decide for myself what quality is.
I only need to pay an extra $40 to understand that the knife is not bad quality
 
coyotebc said:
By cutting out the distributors they are attempting to control the price at a higher level.
By not allowing the distributors to sell at 30 to 50% less then their dealers they are fixing prices the same as gas companies.
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Yes, but that is one manufacturer selling one set of specific products; that is the difference between all gas companies agreeing to sell gas a set price, and
Victorinox deciding how much their blades are going to be sold for. If Shell decided to sell gas at $5.00 a gallon, while the remainder of stations still had it for $3.00, that would not be consider foul play, however if you drive around and you notice that EVERY gas station has gas marked up at three times the price it was yesterday for no apparent reason, it would be pretty obvious what was going on.

If Victorinox decided that they were going to stop selling to distributors at all and sell all of their knives direct, at full MSRP, would you consider that price fixing? Probably not. Case and point, they are allowed to control the price at which their own products are sold.
 
Victorinox bought their competition and then did this.
They are now a monopoly in this style of knife and fixing their price.

Defend it any way you want, go ahead get caught up in the semantics, the fact remains that the consumer will suffer, with higher prices.
 
coyotebc said:
Victorinox bought their competition and then did this.
They are now a monopoly in this style of knife and fixing their price.

Defend it any way you want, go ahead get caught up in the semantics, the fact remains that the consumer will suffer, with higher prices.
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In 2007 the Supreme Court reversed a 96 year old doctrine holding "resale price maintenance" or "minimum advertised pricing" as strictly illegal. Now each practice has to be examined individually whether it violates the "rule of reason" doctrine. This explains the sudden increase in MAP practice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leegin_Creative_Leather_Products,_Inc._v._PSKS,_Inc.

Leatherman, SOG, CRKT, and others also make multitools. They're not exactly the same, but they can be substitutes. As such Victorinox doesn't hold a monopoly on multitools. Even if Victorinox is considered a monopoly, under current doctrine their MAP is illegal only if it preserves or enforces said monopoly.

The current interpretation of the law is admittedly not consumer friendly, but the Sherman Antitrust law is not about being friendly to consumers to begin with. It was enacted to protect free market and competition, which in the long run should benefit the economy (and everybody) as a whole.

I see resurgence of specialized mom and pop stores, rather than the oligopolies of big box brick & mortar retailers (walmart, target, etc.) and a humongous online retailer (Amazon).
 
Sep said:
In 2007 the Supreme Court reversed a 96 year old doctrine holding "resale price maintenance" or "minimum advertised pricing" as strictly illegal. Now each practice has to be examined individually whether it violates the "rule of reason" doctrine. This explains the sudden increase in MAP practice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leegin_Creative_Leather_Products,_Inc._v._PSKS,_Inc.

Leatherman, SOG, CRKT, and others also make multitools. They're not exactly the same, but they can be substitutes. As such Victorinox doesn't hold a monopoly on multitools. Even if Victorinox is considered a monopoly, under current doctrine their MAP is illegal only if it preserves or enforces said monopoly.

The current interpretation of the law is admittedly not consumer friendly, but the Sherman Antitrust law is not about being friendly to consumers to begin with. It was enacted to protect free market and competition, which in the long run should benefit the economy (and everybody) as a whole.

I see resurgence of specialized mom and pop stores, rather than the oligopolies of big box brick & mortar retailers (walmart, target, etc.) and a humongous online retailer (Amazon).
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A sak is no more a multi-tool then diesel is gas.

Not once have I said this is illegal, nor do I give a rats a$$ about American law.
I am laughing like he!! at some of these posts, I say price fixing and you guys come out of the woodwork. Yet some of you use the phrase "to control prices".
Play your word games, I think it was clear on how my statements were meant to be taken.
Please go ahead and highjack this thread into an economics word definitions discussion rather then what it was about. Victorinox cutting out distributors in favour of dealers that will artificially inflate the prices that consumers will pay.
Go ahead pay your higher prices, defend this practice in the end I will make my choice and you will make yours
 
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