Water Jet cutting?

For a number of years now, many of the Mosaic Damascus patterns we all have seen got their beginnings with waterjet technology...its just something that nobody ever talked about or advertised.
I look at this the same as when I used to get dogged by the "old hats" for using a power hammer in my shop. At first it bothered me some, but then on a trip to Europe, I took a tour of a castle, and in the Armory was a 500lb water powered drop hammer that was used 500 years ago. That was the pentacle of their technology at the time, and I'm sure if they would have had air hammers or hydraulic presses at the time....they would have been using them!
Working harder versus working smarter should not be confused with quality.
 
Well said Ed, I would love to see that big ol hammer.
Someday we (or our grandkids) will look at waterjet cutting as antique methods. I am saving up for a Mind Reading, CNC 5 axis, 3D Friction Forging, Solar Magnifing, Star Trek Technology duplicator. Until then I use waterjet cutting to make more than one at a time. :)
 
Here's my POV as a fellow newb. I recently had a half-dozen blanks cut by Great Lakes and I'm very pleased with them. Dave had the appropriate steel (CPM154) on hand so that saved me shipping and time. When all was said and done, they barely cost me any more than ordering barstock would have. And that doesn't include time and belts. Communication with Dave was just fine and his quality is really good. No complaints at all from me.

I left the prototype/pattern a tad oversize from my "standard" pattern; this allows me to fiddle with the blade curve, tip style etc. When I start putting them up for sale, I'll clearly state that the profiles were water-cut and all subsequent grinding was done by hand, by me. The process keeps costs down without sacrificing quality or the "human touch" we strive for. I think that's fair to the customer and still counts as handmade.

All in all it looks like it's pretty unanimous that having blanks cut is a perfectly legitimate technique.
 
Might as well tell them you didn't mine and smelt the steel, too.......
 
I don't see a problem with it since your just profiling the blank. Doing it by hand is a huge time drain. Sitting at the bandsaw all day cutting out the same blank over and over again gets boring fast.
 
Ed Caffrey said:
and I'm sure if they would have had air hammers or hydraulic presses at the time....they would have been using them!
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Amen Ed! You've hit on one of my big pet peeves. It drives me nuts when people say things like "that's cheating because it's not TRADITIONAL". I'd bet even money that the tradition of craftsmen through time using the best technology available to them is more constant over time then any particular method they used.

Using the best equipment I can afford to do the best work I can is the best way I can think of to keep the tradition of craftsmanship alive.

-d
 
deker said:
..."that's cheating because it's not TRADITIONAL"...
-d
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Amen again. If it wasn't for people improving their techniques, materials and understanding, we wouldn't have those traditions. We'd still be tearing things with our teeth and wishing we knew how to build a fire. ;)
 
I am sooooo glade to hear that the veterans do not frown upon this process. Use the best technology available to get a superior product. Got it.
 
We as makers need to consider our health so grinding profiles on 60 knives and then grinding the bevels is a ton of abrasives and metal to inhale even if you wear a respirator. How about noxious handle materials like G-10 and micarta? I have went in at night dizzy many times. BTW those can be watercut also. Truthfully I dont like making knives in batches not only because its unhealthy but because it bores me to death. I do like to make one of a kind knives and take my time.
 
I am with you Bruce on running large quantities of one pattern, it is a royal pain....wherever.

The public sees a photo and expects each and every copy to be EXACTLY like the photo.....I have no control over the pattern on the stag or wood but I can standardize the starting shape by batch cutting them.

I seldom do a waterjet run because I seldom have a requirement for more than one or two of a model at any given time but it is a valid alternative I do use on rare occasions.

George
 
blindhogg said:
Lets not forget price per blank is also based on quantity. It takes time to load the file into the waterjet program and then tell waterjet program what size steel blank you are working with and thickness and type of steel and then to line up Waterjet cutter to stock so all cuts are inside dimensions of steel. Then you have to adjust machine tip to height of of stock. If it takes longer to setup the machine than it will to run your parts then your price will be higher. Its all in the setup.
Higher number of blanks = lower price of blanks.
If it takes 45 mins to setup machine and you only want 5 blanks that only take 2 mins per blank well your paying for 55 mins on the machine.
Hope this helps.
Chris
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Chris. I don't run the way other shops do. I don't have a setup fee or CAD fee or any other fee. I don't do the minimum/maximum thing either. If I quote $5 per blank then thats what it is. If it takes me 10 minutes or 1 hour to set it up, then thats what it takes. I'm just one man with one machine. I really enjoy this and want to keep it affordable for anyone. I do have a lot going on all the time, but I always try to squeeze in everyone's parts in a timely manner.
Thanks for all the support guys! I really appreciate it and will continue to do the best I can for you. :D
 
deker said:
Amen Ed! You've hit on one of my big pet peeves. It drives me nuts when people say things like "that's cheating because it's not TRADITIONAL". I'd bet even money that the tradition of craftsmen through time using the best technology available to them is more constant over time then any particular method they used.
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Would have used? Who do you think invented the next generations of technology!
 
GHEzell said:
First of all, stop buying your belts at sears, trugrit has much better belts with much better prices. The sears belts are cheaply made and not worth buying, IMO.

Secondly, stop using belts to profile. An angle grinder does it much faster, for that matter a bench grinder with coarse stone does a good job of it, and the stone will outlast the belts by a wide margin.

Nothing wrong with water-jet cutting...
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Yes. An angle grinder or bench grinder is the way to go. No sense in eating up belts. As for the OP's question, I don't see anything wrong with it and would still proudly call the finished knives "hand made".
 
panch0 said:
I am sooooo glade to hear that the veterans do not frown upon this process. Use the best technology available to get a superior product. Got it.
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Heck I heard it all and obviously some still are opposed to it and you know what? Its fine. They are entitled to that opinion and I know that the same end can be reached either way because I used to do it all myself one step at a time even wrestling the blade and titanium stock on my band saw as well as dusting the shop up with G10, Micarta, and all manner of other things we knifemakers use. Needless to say I've changed my tune since those days. It started as temporary while an injury healed but again as fate would have it you look at things harder when it affects your wallet and your health. After cracking my elbow in the door jam carrying a couch out the front door that we gave away to a friend it eventually developed into a serious situation and six months later I was so handicapped by my right arm my doctor advised me to take six months off or risk tearing my tendon and needing surgery to correct it. It was either quit for a while or make some changes. Dave at Great Lakes invited me to use him until my arm healed up.

First thing I noted was that Dave practically doubled everything he could get out of my sheets of titanium for pocket clip blanks or frame locks or anything else I had him do for me compared to how I was doing it with my band saw and that was the first wake up call. (read MONEY SAVINGS here if you missed it) The second thing noticed was the reduced mess in my shop and particularly less dust which I was breathing in the way of titanium smelt and steel dust trimming up the very rough edges and burr formed from the band saw with each cut. Third was the fact I was not having to spend so much time on jobs once I got going on one (but there is still a heck of a lot of hand work involved don't kid yourself.) Fourth, things were so close to the same (read identical here) that it was uncanny! Fifth, I was not spending near the money on band saw blades, belts, or respirator filters and what I had was lasting longer, sixth, I gave my elbow injury much needed time to heal up because I was not having to hold and grip titanium or sheet steel, bar stock or anything else I use to cut it myself the old fashioned way. I could go on because the benefits far outweigh the draw backs because honestly I can't think of any draw backs. I was ignorant for not hopping on this at the first available opportunity.

I'm with Brian. I don't even consider anyone else. Dave is the man.:thumbup:

STR
 
I too have bought from GLWJ and think its perfectly acceptable. I still profile some of my own, but I would agree that the knife is still hand made. For that matter people call the knife kits hand made...and honestly I don't really disagree with that either, its just not a custom blade design. To each their own I suppose.
 
Bruce Bump said:
We as makers need to consider our health so grinding profiles on 60 knives and then grinding the bevels is a ton of abrasives and metal to inhale even if you wear a respirator.
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Good point, sir. After the end of a shift in the shop, I have to shower (obviously) and brush my teeth, and I can still taste steel.
 
Don't spend so much time picking fly poop out of the pepper. A blank isn't a knife. You don't grow your own trees for handle material do you? Have them WJ'd, save time, $, and your health. In the words of Bob Loveless: "Repeatability".
 
Bill DeShivs said:
Might as well tell them you didn't mine and smelt the steel, too.......
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I saw an episode on the History channel with a swordmaker (Paul Champain ??) who obtained iron ore from a river bank (as I recall) and made steel. Now my thoughts on this are: "wow, now here is a real knife maker (swordsmith)." So, how many folks on the forum make your steel? I don't. Probably never will, probably will never even forge a blade.

All ya'll were very supportive of my efforts even tho until recently I had not even profiled a piece of steel. I started putting handles on kit blades and will continue to do so until I've used up the ones I haven't finished.

Being able to have blanks of my own design cut would be a big help so I would have more time actually grinding the steel. I know I can profile a blade. I need the time to be able to practice my grinding. It seems to me that the profile is easy (at least that was the easy part on my first two blades). Why not farm that out, especially if I design the shape?

BTW, can anyone tell me about how much this would cost? You know, ball park figure. Do you have to have several done at one time?
 
daveinvegas said:
I saw an episode on the History channel with a swordmaker (Paul Champain ??) who obtained iron ore from a river bank (as I recall) and made steel. Now my thoughts on this are: "wow, now here is a real knife maker (swordsmith)." So, how many folks on the forum make your steel? I don't. Probably never will, probably will never even forge a blade.

All ya'll were very supportive of my efforts even tho until recently I had not even profiled a piece of steel. I started putting handles on kit blades and will continue to do so until I've used up the ones I haven't finished.

Being able to have blanks of my own design cut would be a big help so I would have more time actually grinding the steel. I know I can profile a blade. I need the time to be able to practice my grinding. It seems to me that the profile is easy (at least that was the easy part on my first two blades). Why not farm that out, especially if I design the shape?

BTW, can anyone tell me about how much this would cost? You know, ball park figure. Do you have to have several done at one time?
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Dave the best thing to do is design the perfect knife on paper and contact David from GreatLakesWaterjet. Simply email him your drawing and he will let you know how much it will cost each. I have my steel drop shipped directly to him and he cuts them out from my design and sends the blanks to me. I usually only have 8 to 10 cut out at a time. I'm not a production maker and only own a handfull of my our own patterns that my son and I produce. It pays off for us in time and precision repeatability. Shoot him an email for more details.
 
daveinvegas said:
BTW, can anyone tell me about how much this would cost? You know, ball park figure. Do you have to have several done at one time?
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Bruce is absolutely right, just call Dave. He'll hook you up for "one piece or thousands" like it says on his site. I just snail-mailed him a paper template cut to my design and my blanks came out great.
 
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