We need a heat treat chart!

[Daniel Fairly Knives]

Daniel, this one line from your post is a false premise. For instance, even Crucible spec sheets generally offer three austenizing temperatures, several quench options and wide range tempering tables for two of those options. Even those few permutations lead to hundreds of possibilities for a "right way to do it" - and they certainly aren't exhaustive.

Most of us freely give out our heat treat "secrets". Heck, most of mine are posted on the Even-Heat web site, but I'd be offended if anyone described them as the only right way. My signature line at the bottom of this post applies to this issue more than any other.

Rob!

I agree, I should have worded that differently. What I meant is there is a range of parameters that think we could all agree are appropriate for a specific type of heat treat.

 

[Daniel Fairly Knives]

I know this is a complicated subject and we all have different ways to achieve a common goal, making the best knives!

I don't know a lot about this subject, hardly anything at all. Maybe I am oversimplifying things.

 

[Patrice Lemée]

Well, I'll be the dissenting voice. There can easily be a short list of standard heat treatments for the majority of blades and steels...

I am not saying it shouldn't be done. I am actually making a small one for myself.
Just that there is a force in the Universe that is preventing such an endeavor to come to fruition.

 

[Daniel Fairly Knives]

I'm thinking the chart could be a quick reference guide for us that are relatively new to this subject or are treating an unfamiliar steel. This could be a compliment to the books listed and the stickies, not a substitute.

 

[Atlas Knife Company]

OK, Here's my contribution. I added CPM S35VN and CPM S110V, and removed 410SS and 416SS. I corrected a few chemistry listings and input the annealing, hardening, and forging stats from Crucible. It's already more than I knew when I started and that's called learning. The above posted ZIP file has been updated to include this version. Also, I added a column to tell whether or not the metal would get a nice hamon.


,"Air, Oil, or Water quench",Simple HT instructions,Pros and Cons,Hamon,Forging Temp
Sandvik 12C27 Stainless,,,,,
Typical Chemistry: C .60 Mn .40 Si .40 Cr 13.50,,,,,

Sandvik 13C26 Stainless,,,,,
Typical Chemistry: C .68 Mn .60 Si .40 Cr 13.00,,,,,

Sandvik 19C27 Stainless,,,,,
Typical Chemistry: C .95 Mn .65 Si .40 Cr 13.50,,,,,

Hitachi ATS-34 Stainless,,,,,
Typical Chemistry: C 1.00 Mn .40 Si .25 Cr 13.75 Mo 3.5,,,,,

440C Stainless,Air or plate quench,Heat to 1900° and quench,,,1950° - 2150°
Typical Chemistry: C 1.00 Mn 1.00 Si 1.00 Cr 16-18 Mo .75 P .40,,1650° six hours,,,
,,slow cool,,,
CPM 154 Stainless,Air or plate quench,30-60 mins. At 1950°,CPM version of 154CM,no,
Typical Chemistry: C 1.05 Cr 14.00 Mo 4.00,,Annealing: 1650° 2 hours,cryo after quench before temper,,
,,slow cool to 1200° then air cool,,,
CPM S30V Stainless,Air or plate quench,60 mins at 1950°,very difficult to get a mirror finish,no,2100°
Typical Chemistry: C 1.45 Mn .40 Si .40 Cr 14.00 Va 4.00 Mo 2.00,,,,,
,,,,,
CPM S35V Stainless,Air or plate quench,30 mins at 1950°,Highly improved version of S30V,no,2100°
Typical Chemistry: C 1.4 Cr 14.00 V 3.00 Mo 2.00 Ni .5,,Annealing: 1650°,,,

154CM Stainless,Air or plate quench,60 mins. At 1950°,Good mirror finish,no,
Typical Chemistry: C 1.05 Mn .50 Si .30 Cr 14.00 Mo 2.00,,annealing: 1650° 2 hrs,"Cryo after quench, before temper",,
,,,,,
CPM S90V Stainless,Air or plate quench,20 mins. At 2150°,very difficult to grind,no,
Typical Chemistry: C 2.3 Cr 14 Mo 1 V 9,,Annealing: 1650° 2 hours,,,
,,slow cool,,,
CPM S110V Stainless,Air or plate quench,20 mins. At 2150° Temper 3x,very difficult to grind,no,
Typical Chemistry: C 2.8 Co 2.5 Cr 15.25 Mo 2.25 Nb 3 V 9,,,,,

Tool Steels,,,,,
D-2 Tool Steel,Air or plate quench,30 minutes at 1850°,,no,
Typical Chemistry: C 1.55 Cr 11.50 V .80 Mo .90,,Annealing: 1600° 2 hrs.,,,
,,slow cool to 1000° then air cool,,,
O-1 Tool Steel,Oil,5 mins at 1450°-1500°,,,1825-1925° F
Precision Ground,,,,,
Typical Chemistry: C .95 Mn 1.00 Si .25 Cr .50 V .25 Tungsten .6,,,,,

Alloys & Others,,,,,
8670M (L-6 Alternative),,,,,
Typical Chemistry: C .64-.75 Mn .40-.60 Si .25 Ni .70-1.0 Mo .05-.10,,,,,

15 N 20,,,,,
Typical Chemistry: C .75 Mn .75 Si .25 Ni 1.5,,,,,

52100,,
Typical Chemistry: C 1.02 Mn .36 Si .25 Cr 1.46,,

A203E Alloy,,
Typical Chemistry: C .09 Mn .64 Si .34 Ni 3.58 Cr .030 Mo .010,,
"Stock Gauges: .250""",,

Spring Steels,,
HR 1075/1080,Oil,H5 mins. At 1450°
Typical Chemistry: C .70/.88 Mn .40/.90,,

HR 1095,,
Typical Chemistry: C .90/1.04 Mn .60/.90,,

HR 5160,,H5 mins. At 1450°
Typical Chemistry: C .60 Mn .85 P .035 max S .040 max

Crucible Steel Database: http://www.crucibleservice.com/Products.aspx?c=DoList

 

[Daniel Fairly Knives]

Last night I hardened and tempered a couple of O1 Steel knives. I don't have any method that I use because this was my first time to do this. I looked up several different methods and found a few that agreed with each other, wrote them down and came up with my first method. I felt OK with this because I have been reading the stickies for about two years now and am starting to grasp them at last. (well a little )

Here is what I did:

Preheat Knife at 1300 for 5 minutes- (this points out exactly what a lot of people are being critical about, vauge info/etc... because I wasn't sure about it... ) I did this to uniformly heat up the knife.

High Heat- ramp kiln to 1500, hold for 10-30 minutes (I did 12)

Quench in medium speed oil till 150F or hand warm in oil. Oil was at 130. I used canola. (low budget option which I'm sure compromised the heat treat)

Temper for 3 hours at 400 - I did this based on some information I got here, it sounded ideal a general purpose knife. (paring and "utility" knife) Four sounded better but it was getting late!


Now I could have varied a few things and some things, well I wasn't sure about like the preheat. (I need to read more) I do think the High Heat Soak (1450-1500 for 10-30 minutes) could probably be agreed on by all of us, as well as the fact that it needed a medium speed quench and an appropriate temper.

Just typing this out makes me understand the point a lot of you have made that there is too much variation for a definitive chart, but hey it could be a great starting point.

Thanks everybody for the input!

 

[Daniel Fairly Knives]

Amen Karl! :thumbup:

I couldn't explain it any better than Karl.....but will add this...

There are as many ways to do this (build knives) as there are people out there doing it. Heat treat guides and data should be used as a STARTING POINT. Your objective as a knife maker should always be to take the "next logical step."

Thank you for your input Ed, I always look for it especially when it comes to this subject.

I agree 100%.

It is hard to convey my point sometimes...

 

[Atlas Knife Company]

I think the term is BASELINE. This chart can serve as a baseline for beginners.
Improved a little for reading. I increased the soak time for O-1. Does anyone have HT forumal for the Sandvik steels?

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Zaph and others:
Quoting information on the internet that is not fact based and proven by you is fraught with peril.
There are so many parameters, many of which you probably don't understand, concerning the printed HT charts copyable from web sites, that such a cobbled together list would be a disservice to new makers, not an asset.
The ASM has had engineers and scientists test and re-test the process and then published the results. The reason there is more than one chart for a steel type is there are may ways that it may be used and processed. As said , there is often several formulations for the same steel type.
There is no one stop process for many steels. It would be a better suggestion to learn basic metallurgy, and then be able to read a chart in a book made by people who know that the info printed is right.

 

[james terrio]

As a new maker myself, I think it's much more valuable to pick 1 alloy you already know you like, 3-4 maximum, and learn as much about it/them as possible. People a lot more knowledgable than I have spent years on one or two alloys to get them just right for their purposes. Not a couple days copying and pasting, actually learning the science and doing their own testing.

Why know a little, possibly half-vast, easy-to-misinterpret info about all of them? The time would be better spent testing a few recipes or a couple different quenches for (insert your favorite here).

"Do you want to be a knifemaker or a heat-treater? I've been doing this for 30 years and in another 20, I might know it all." -- my HT guy

 

[AcridSaint]

Stacy - I emphatically disagree with your statement that "There is no one-stop process for many steels". Every common steel used for knifemaking has standard, published heat treating recipes which nearly anyone can follow (how many professional heat treaters have degrees in metallurgy?).

One has to understand exactly 0% of metallurgy to competently heat treat the majority of steels available. One simply must follow the recipe and not try to make modifications. The modifications bit seems to be the real obstacle to overcome with many knifemakers.

I do agree, however, that much of the copied and pasted info on the Internet is laden with errors and pitfalls. I also agree that one -should- understand what's going on in their steel, but I'd settle for everyone just trying to follow industry standard heat treating guidelines.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I think we are mainly agreeing with each other.
The information published is very specific, but can cover several possibilities in the same steel type. It often gives three temperature ranges, three quench processes, and several temper parameters. Posting only one on a new chart would be inaccurate unless one was sure that every person using this new chart was going to do that same process ....with the same assay steel..... in the same dimensions that the ASM or other HT manual they copied was written about.

Can a list be made of temps and times that are approximate and somewhat universal...sure... but why try and re-invent the wheel. And would the new wheel work on bicycles, snow, offroad, and on an 18 wheeler?

Knowing why we do things is far more important than just knowing the data.
It may just be me, but if I had to choose from a surgeon who had read that you mark 1" below the navel and 3" to the right, then make a transverse 2" incission to open the abdomen for an appendectomy....or one who knew what blood vessels, organs, and nerves were under the abdominal wall, and cut appropriate to that knowledge....I would choose the latter.

I don't expect everyone to agree on this thread, but making a new list using copied ( often illegally) information seems counterproductive. Why not purchase the accurate information or research it oneself online. I know the first thing many will say is ,"The price is too high.", but there is a good reason the book costs what it does....accurate information based on thousands of hours of research.

 

[Atlas Knife Company]

One has to understand exactly 0% of metallurgy to competently heat treat the majority of steels available. One simply must follow the recipe and not try to make modifications. The modifications bit seems to be the real obstacle to overcome with many knifemakers.

I do agree, however, that much of the copied and pasted info on the Internet is laden with errors and pitfalls. I also agree that one -should- understand what's going on in their steel, but I'd settle for everyone just trying to follow industry standard heat treating guidelines.

True, most of the data sheets list 3-4 different formulas, that's why I used the term baseline. If you use that formula correctly then you should get a usable blade. Maybe not optimum, but at least usable.

With that being said, all information, well almost all, is taken directly from the manufacturers' websites or data sheets. I have put the links to them at the bottom of the XLS speadsheet. 1075/1080 seems to be agreed upon as the simplest to HT and I can't really find a specific manufacturer for it. CPM and Sandvik have rather specific details for their steels, which differ somewhat from the advice given here. Specifically, CPM states to cryo after the first temper instead of as part of the quench, and Sandvik states that once the cryo temp is reached you can remove the blade. A long soak is not needed, according to the manufacturer. Where a range of temperatures is given, I pick a temp in the middle or quote the entire range.

As far as interpreting the info on the sheets, what's the difference between that and getting 5 different formulas here on BF?

Sure, sticking to 3-4 metals is a great idea. However, there's really no chart which tells the basics so we can figure out which 3-4 we would like to learn with. That's why "What steel should I use?" is such a common question.

 

[AcridSaint]

I prefer to work with reference material also, I'm not saying that the list needs to exist or be a sticky (although if it were accurate I'd support it). I am saying that there's no reason one can't be made and no consensus of opinion is needed. To quote a once popular TV show we need "Just the facts, ma'am".

There's not really any interpreting to be done with most heat treating info. It is what it is. If there is a temp range for austentitzing, then you get the steel in that range and soak for the quoted time then quench according to the same specification. If it gives you options, then they are just that - options.

If one is unsure about which tempering option they should use then they've got a couple of choices - research it and make a decision based on info gathered, test all relevant options and find which one works best for them, or just pick one and run with it. Any of those choices will likely yield a fine knife if the published heat treating info is used.

If someone is doing "advanced" heat treating, whatever in the world that might be, then one assumes that they can afford the reference materials and equipment to develop, understand and test said heat treatments. If Joe down the street has some ATS-34 and a PID controlled kiln that his brother-in-law gave him, then he probably will fair just fine with the "standard" recipe.

 

[Daniel Fairly Knives]

I prefer to work with reference material also, I'm not saying that the list needs to exist or be a sticky (although if it were accurate I'd support it). I am saying that there's no reason one can't be made and no consensus of opinion is needed. To quote a once popular TV show we need "Just the facts, ma'am".

There's not really any interpreting to be done with most heat treating info. It is what it is. If there is a temp range for austentitzing, then you get the steel in that range and soak for the quoted time then quench according to the same specification. If it gives you options, then they are just that - options.

If one is unsure about which tempering option they should use then they've got a couple of choices - research it and make a decision based on info gathered, test all relevant options and find which one works best for them, or just pick one and run with it. Any of those choices will likely yield a fine knife if the published heat treating info is used.

If someone is doing "advanced" heat treating, whatever in the world that might be, then one assumes that they can afford the reference materials and equipment to develop, understand and test said heat treatments. If Joe down the street has some ATS-34 and a PID controlled kiln that his brother-in-law gave him, then he probably will fair just fine with the "standard" recipe.

I agree with all of this.

I'm going to try to start working on the chart soon. I think I'm going to stick to a few steel types at first and work from there. If any information is incorrect we can try to come upon an agreement as to what to do.

This will not be a substitute for learning proper metallurgical procedure, just a starting point so we know how to set our kilns or forges!

 

[james terrio]

So how about them Packers?

 

[Matthew Gregory]

I am saying that there's no reason one can't be made and no consensus of opinion is needed.

This statement is entirely correct. Several months ago a well-respected knifemaker with unorthodox heat treating practices wrote an article for a magazine involving heat treatment of a new forging steel (the article even included the heat treatment instructions as per the manufacturer, these were mainly ignored by the 'expert'). The article closed with 'further testing is required to optimize this steel'. Had the writer followed the instructions supplied by the manufacturer, he would have found that there were no additional tests required, and that the steel would have performed to his expectations.
Why knifemakers need to feel like unique and special snowflakes completely baffles me. NOTHING we as creators of knives do is any different from any other metal process industry. Perhaps if we stopped attempting to use steels (that were designed for other applications such as springs) as blade steels we'd realize that steels designed for blades work better, and yet even better still when processed properly!
Years of educating myself about the principles and properties of metals and heat treatment have led me to the fact that by properly selecting your steel for an application, working it within its design considerations, and following the instructions for it makes a superior blade than 'experimenting' offers.

Everyone's entitled to an opinion, folks... regardless of just how ridiculous it is!

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Matt, perhaps your author friend’s error is his endless need to oversimplify a process that cannot be approached in that manner, i.e. a simple recipe that any guy whose devoted a whole 45 minutes to learning can apply to any steel they find. If you find that every steel you try doesn’t behave much different than 1084, perhaps it is because you treat every steel as if it were 1084. Recently while teaching in another part of the country I heard a very appropriate saying “keep doing what you are doing, and you will keep getting what you are getting.”

I started out like everybody else, reading the same stuff, but I had a drive to always learn more. The path to where I am now involved disciplining myself to stick to it to learn a craft that takes a lifetime of effort, it is perhaps the only thing I ever applied myself that fully to, and I still have much more learning ahead of me than behind me. I couldn’t have found the way if I had stuck with the dumbed down “become a knifemaker in 3 easy steps” type of fluff I started with. It would be like expecting to be world champion kickboxer by picking up a copy of “Kung Fu Ninja” magazine. In the past Bladeforums has offered a distinct advantage over that sort of magazine level pabulum, perhaps this chart should be made and then offered to one of those knife periodicals, I am sure they would be happy to publish it.

In the meantime, I have had this page up at my website for some time:

http://www.cashenblades.com/info/hardening.html

Clicking in the list the common steels on that page will get you plenty of information that is based on industry specifications and adjustments based on my experience. None are “the” recipe for each of these steels, but they are tools or guidelines based on the individual alloys discussed.

Edited to add- I created the graphics and text myself on those pages to avoid any infringement on the copyrights of others, please return that consideration to me.

 

[james terrio]

Perhaps it does make sense for some to simply set a standard HT protocol -- ie heat to nonmagnetic, hold for 5 minutes, quench in 120* medium (who cares what as long as it's the same each time, use whatever's available to you), temper 2x2hrs at 400*. Do the same for every steel you come across (from old mower blades to the latest super-alloy) and whatever comes out best is the steel for you. Hey, it worked for centuries

 

[Atlas Knife Company]

Thank you, Kevin. Much great info there. I really enjoyed this picture.