Week One - Makers and Collectors

Gus Kalanzis

Gus Kalanzis

Havin' fun, learning and putting up with Bastid.
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Starting this week’s topic off with a composite of thoughts based on my experience. I am sure many of us have thoughts in this area and if you have the time please add them. This can end up being a good reference if we have input from collectors and makers.

There are three key things that I try to keep in mind.
Today I will start with what and who.
Later on this week I will add thoughts on getting comfortable with the situation which will include things I avoid and communication which will include payments and waiting.

What and who.
If you have something in mind try to narrow the choice of makers to those whose style of knives matches what you are interested in. Try to spend time talking to the makers you have in mind. My goal here is to find someone who will have fun while they are working on the piece. If I am pushing a maker too far out of their specialty, I need to recognize that this is something they want to do. If I find myself wanting to dictate every little thing, I know I need to loosen up and allow that maker to express his ideas and thoughts. On a “one of a kind” I want my ideas to meld with the makers. The end result being a mixture of some general ideas made by both of us and as well as details that we have worked out. At the same time, leave leeway for the maker to do their thing. That leeway again is based on the fact you have chosen that maker because you have trust in all the ability that they bring to the table.

It boils down to what Les has repeatedly told us to do. Maybe it has gotten trite, but do your homework.

1. Ask questions in every venue that you can find. Always keep in mind that the answers are based on an individual’s experience. There are few out there that can give a complete answer to questions like who is the best. The fact is that the answers are going to be based on the people that the poster has dealt with and few of us have dealt with or seen with the knives of most of the makers out there.

2. Go to shows and talk to people.

Some meandering thoughts on the what and who:

If I am going for something high dollar I usually have no intention of selling it in the near future, but for me it is important to know that if I had too, I would not be taking a bath. I look at the after-market. Do I see the maker’s knives around being sold at steady prices? Do I see a demand for the work? Do I see people that I respect in the industry speak highly of the maker and their work? Do I see that maker at shows? Do I see the maker pushing himself or herself to keep their name in the knife community? Most important - Have they established themselves in areas where other makers and collectors respect them? Do they participate in sharing knowledge, teaching others and in general promoting the craft to collectors and other makers.


Getting Comfortable

Communication

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" The real art of living is to keep alive the longing in human beings to become greater versions of themselves." Laurens Van der Post in memory of James Mattis
 
Gus, this is a great Topic to start things off. Compared to some of the people on the Forums I'm a FNG when it comes to Custom knives, but I have gone through the process of having a knife made to my design four times with a fifth on the way. I've been trying to encourage folks to go get the knife of their dreams made instead of just buying production knives.

Here is an thread I had on the General Forum about having my first custom folder made. It takes you through every step from drawing to finished knife and G2 sheath.

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum64/HTML/000638.html

I haven't gone to the Big Names to make my customs, just makers I knew that make a quality product at a price I can afford. Those makers are JA Lonewolf, Max Burnett, Art Washburn and Allen Blade. All of these knives are too special to me to even think about Resale.

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"Will work 4 Knives!"
My PhotoPoint Site
 
You have some real valid points there. Also if I am going to buy a high ticket knife, I check and see if someone might be selling it here or at Blade Auction for a lesser price. Sometimes you ca find a good deal, as a person changes their collecting tastes or they really need some quick cash. Believe right now there is a collector selling some great stuff, cause he needs the money.

The more places you look the more informed you are.

Myself, when i was at the Vegas show, had a chance to get a great deal, I went and asked some of the dealers, and some of the bigger named makers, they all confirmed it was a great deal and I would be a fool to pass it up.

Also if you are buying from a maker, some times they will be willing to help you out if you are a few bucks short of their price. They know the good will it brings is worth the loss of a few dollars.



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Peace

Paul
Custom Knife Purveyor
"We support the new maker!"
Circle P Knives
 
Phil,
Thanks. I remember the thread and it was a good one. Just the kind of stuff we need to have referenced here.

I know what you mean about "those knives being something special". There is a realtionship that develops when you work with a maker on a knife. Like you I have no intentions of selling the knives that have come my way thorugh the back and forth dealings with the person that made them.

In my experience most of the time friendships developed that have gone beyond the boundries of knives. I hope this information in this thread will eventually help others realize the experience.

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" The real art of living is to keep alive the longing in human beings to become greater versions of themselves." Laurens Van der Post in memory of James Mattis
 
When I purchase a custom knife I always ask for the input of the man who makes the knife. I know basicly what I want, but feel the experience of the man I am dealing with to be invaluable in helping end up with knife that I was hopeing for.
I like a hollow grind, but have found through consultation that that is not always the best way to have my knifes made. This is just an example of the things I have learned by listening to people like Darrel Ralph, Kit Carson and Mike Snody.
As Phil and Gus have mentioned, I would never consider selling one of these knives. They mean far to much to me.
I go in knowing what I want my knife to look like and what I want it to be made of. I work together with the maker do decide on the overall design. At that point I get out of his way and let him do what he does best, which is to make my dream come true.

Keith.
 
Purveyors play an important role in knife collecting, and I appreciate the many things I've learned from people like Rhett Stidham, Gary Shaw, Bill Claussen, and many others. However, the real joy in knife collecting is the relationships I've formed with the makers, both by meeting them at shows and ordering things by phone and mail. I know this sounds hokey to many on the forums, but I do believe in the spirit of the blade and that is part of the joy for me in owning pieces from folks like Moran and Scagel. I feel the relationship even more when I've bought the knife from the maker himself, and even more when it was developed as a collaborative effort. I know what I want in a knife, and I rely on the maker's expertise to translate it into reality.
The advantage of ordering a knife is that it's made especially for you and certain aspects can be customized to your taste. The advantage of buying at a show is that it's available immediately. Also, no matter how well planned something is, you don't really know what the knife is like until you hold it in your hand, and in the case of an ordered knife, by then it's too late. It's great to see a table full of knives and be able to handle a bunch of them in order to pick out the one that's just right. Sometimes you don't even know what makes it that way, it just feels good.
 
The joy of receiving a knife that has been made to your specification has got to be one of the best feelings ever. I have few true custom knives, although I will admit I am not displeased with the handmade knives I have bought and collect.

Everyone has different tastes in knives. A custom knife maker has to be a magician of sorts, making each ordered knife to specification of the buyer. That type of craftsmanship is a rare thing, most people have no idea, they can only guess at what it really takes.

I know my life has been enriched by knowing and interacting with these artisans!


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Peace

Paul
Custom Knife Purveyor
"We support the new maker!"
Circle P Knives
 
It's very possible that the most collectible knives (i.e. those having the greatest potential for increasing in value) from any given maker are not those made to a customer's specifications. They are likely those with which the maker has allowed his imagination and skills free rein to do whatever works best for him.

I suppose if you talked Bob Loveless into forging a camp knife you might have something pretty special, but usually taking a maker away from his usual area of expertise is diminishing his best efforts.

Personally, I think knives are a lousy investment. I've owned and still own quite a few from some pretty good makers, most dating back to the 80's. While most have appreciated in value, the stock market would have netted a much better return. I've enjoyed owning them though, and on very few have I lost money. All knives I bought from established makers with good reputations have generally appreciated. Those from unknowns have very little resale value. In just one instance, an unknown went on to become a well known maker and I did well on his knife. In two instances, knives from well regarded makers whose reputations faded have lost money.

Buy what you like from a maker you like and enjoy the knife. The camaraderie is probably worth more than the investment.



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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
The New Tom & Jerry Show
 
I have decided that this year I am going to make it to one show. That is all time and funds will allow. It is important to me to meet the people that make the knives I covet so much. It will also be nice to actually get to handle some of the knives and get a real feel for what these knifemakers do.I do not think that anything can replace the face to face atmosphere of the knife show.
I will be doing my absolute best to make it to the Oregon Knife Collectors Show this year and hope to meet lots of you there.

Keith.



[This message has been edited by Keith Montgomery (edited 02-26-2001).]
 
"Everyone has different tastes in knives. A custom knife maker has to be a magician of sorts, making each ordered knife to specification of the buyer. That type of craftsmanship is a rare thing, most people have no idea, they can only guess at what it really takes."
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These are excellent statements to make at the beginning of this topic! As you can see by the variety of posts on this forum, different people have different tastes. What one person might think is a great feature, another might dislike.

You can only tell so much from a photo. If you're going to invest in a "hand-built" knife, try to go to as many shows as you can and FEEL the knives. Then, you can meet the makers and purveyors and ask your questions.

It is also very important to realize that each maker knows his or her limitations and specialties best. Just because someone is a custom maker, don't expect them to be able to build any knife you can dream up. Many makers still "specialize" in certain designs and materials because that's where they do their best work. Don't be surprised if you ask a folder maker to make a broadsword and he or she recommends another maker!

Why?

Each maker has their own pace at which they learn new techniques and materials. Don't try to force someone into making something they're not comfortable with. You should take note to when a maker says "I've never worked with that" or "I've never done that." Sometimes these statements really mean "I don't know if I can do that!"

Also, never ask makers to "copy" someone elses designs. They will know you're either trying to get a "cheaper one" than the original, or you're not happy with the quality or waiting period of the "original."

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Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives

[This message has been edited by Tom Anderson (edited 02-26-2001).]
 
Then again, I know a maker who will copy any production knife sans makers mark and do it happily, it's more expensive, but the people who come to him are dissatisfied with the quality of the production blade, but still likes the visual of the knife, another important thing to collectors. Ever try and sell an ugly knife? Did you get it sold??



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Peace

Paul
Custom Knife Purveyor
"We support the new maker!"
Circle P Knives
 
Also, never ask makers to "copy" someone elses designs. They will know you're either trying to get a "cheaper one" than the original, or you're not happy with the quality or waiting period of the "original."....Tom Anderson

I have to tell you that all but one of the knives that I have had made were either inspired by or very closely copied from other makers designs. My earlier post about my Art Washburn folder was a composite of two makers that I respect very much. The wharnclif blade was taken from one of Tim Herman's knives and for the handle I wanted it to look like a Loveless "dropped point hunter". My Lonewolf knives were designed with an Ed Fowler "pronghorn" in mind. The closest reproduction was my "OGG Bowie" from Max Burnett, which came directly from Daniel Winkler's #18 Bowie. I showed Max a picture of Winkler's knife. He had never made a knife like it before, but wanted to do it. Max put his own style and talents into the knife so that nobody would mistake it for the original. I brought the knife to the NYCKS this past Nov. and the first person I showed it to was Daniel, and I asked him if he minded? He said he was flattered and that every knife is inspired from something that came before. Now, he may have just been being gracious, but I believed him.

I will admit that the price difference and the wait time was a consideration. Although I would love to own an original Winkler I wouldn't trade my OGG Bowie for one.

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[This message has been edited by PhilL (edited 02-26-2001).]
 
Gentlemen:

I did not mean to start a controversy with my statement concerning "copying" another's knife design. This statement really relates to the previous paragraph, wherein I suggested not trying to force any maker into doing anything they don't feel comfortable with - such as producing a "verbatim" copy of another maker's design without the latter's express permission.

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Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives
 
Not to put words in Tom's mouth (we have emailed a little), but I think we may be touching on two different things here.

There are not a tremendous number of makers out there that have not been inspired by previous designs. I feel what Tom is alluding to is the type of customer who might come up to a maker and for example ask to make an Apogee, a Kit Carson Model 4 just like the real one. Most makers would have a problem with that. At the very least the originator of the design should be consulted before the knife is started.

On the other hand I know many makers and collectors that get ideas from other knives. The knife may end up being a blend of several influences. I study knife photographs to the point where some of my family and friends think I am obsessed. Maybe I am since I have the Points of Interest books memorized (still working on the 5th one).

Many of the knives I have coming in started off with basic ideas from P.O.I. Not that I ask the maker to copy something just to see the lines or materials. As it was pointed out before by a few of us, things seem to turn out better when you turn the maker loose.

Some of the most interesting times I have had have been spending time with some of these folks in a non-knife setting. They see things in everyday life that gives them inspiration, a cars lines, architectural aspects of just about anything, curves, melding of different materials. These folks look at things in a different way than I do (having very little artistic talent).

It all goes back to taking the approach of knowing the maker and blending ideas into something that he or she will enjoy making for you.
I can not emphasize that enough put yourself in their place. Would you rather dread working on a knife or would you think that a knife that a maker enjoyed doing, maybe even learned something from that took some of their skills to another level might just result in something pretty special.

This takes some effort from the customer in studying the makers style and figuring out if what they want done melds with that style. Sometimes watching and listening will lead you in the right direction.


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" The real art of living is to keep alive the longing in human beings to become greater versions of themselves." Laurens Van der Post in memory of James Mattis

[This message has been edited by Gus Kalanzis (edited 02-26-2001).]
 
I would never go to a knifemaker and ask him to copy someone elses design. That is not why I went to this person in the first place. The reason that I pick a certain maker to work with me to produce the knife I want is that I see in his work something that I want. I may have seen something in another makers knives that I would like to include in the design, if possible. I think that that is part of coming up with the knife you want. I will always incorporate these features into the style of the knifemaker that I want to make my knife.

Keith.
 
2 things,
1. max Burnett does some great stuff, and
2. The Weyers Points of Interest books I'm sure have been the downfall of many a good man! How can you look through any of the POI books and not immediately fall in love with the artistry of the knives, and the artistry of Jim and Louise Weyer in arrangeing the knives so skillfully.

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Peace

Paul
Custom Knife Purveyor
"We support the new maker!"
I take Paypal. ask me how??
Circle P Knives
 
I wrote most of this for a thread about buying True custom knives, an idea that keep coming up in this thread. I am not sure just what that is.

How much design work does the customer have to do for the knife to be considered a 'custom' knife? If a person orders something like a Carson model 4, but specifies the handle materials and blade material, then waits two years for delivery, is that knife different from a nearly identical knife that someone might see at an internet knife dealers site? If a maker produces Many knives of the same basic style, size, shape, grinds, etc., are any of these True customs?

Hmm. The old 'true' custom vs the Guild's definition: a custom knife is a knife made by One person for a customer. The customer may be the knife maker himself.

I have a couple dozen KMG definition 'custom' knives. I bought almost all of the directly from knifemakers at shows, and from internet web sites. I have only placed an order for a knife a couple of times, but I was ordering something the maker designed and which I had no design influence other than selecting blade and handle materials, and finish. I really like to buy the makers vision of what a knife should be, not mine. Since I collect knives as art, this approach makes sense.

On the other hand, a lot of people take enormous pride and pleasure in working closely with a maker to have Both the customers design ideas and the maker's influence the production of the knife. That makes sense too. I just have not done that yet. I would certainly not be interested in asking a maker to produce something that was not part of his normal body of work. If I did that, the maker would be more of a craftsman, and less of an artist.

I recently recieved a two-blade 'moose' double-lockback folder with 52100 blades from mastersmith PJ Tomes. He won the Most Innovative knife award for this design at the Blade show 2000 last year. I did not want him to change the design at all. He did offer to make it with 420V blades and I could have chosen a material other than stag. But PJ's stag is outstanding. He searched high a low through his stock to find me a couple of gorgeous deep amber stag scales that are really thin and flat, making the knife very trim. It feels great in my hand.

I know that PJ tried to make this knife special for me. And I appreciate it. Having a good relationship with a maker is a good way to get the 'extra' special treatment. I ordered the knife from him last November. A couple of weeks ago, it was waiting for me when I got home. No money had changed hands. I called PJ right away to thank him and we talked for a while about his search for 'just the right 'stag' for My knife. And he called a few days ago just to say hello. We never have never talked about money since I ordered the knife last year.I thought what I paid PJ Tomes was Very little for the knife, and the service I recieved.

Michael Gettier, a fellow forum member and professional chef, allowed me to invite a couple of knife makers to enjoy dinner at his incredible French restaurant the night of the Chesapeake show last December. I had the pleasure of dining with PJ Tomes (a southern gentleman) and Zaza Revishvilli, who is from Georgia
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In was an incredible experience. Particulary when Michael was giving us the tour of the kitchen and we got to talking knives. Everyone agree that Zaza's incredibly intricate silver filigree work would not past muster with the Health Department.

PJ shaved all the hair off my left arm just to demonstrate how sharp the knife he had just sharpened for Michael was. It is an interesting experience to have a tall, muscular man grab your arm and quickly and deftly shave all the hair off your arm in three or four quick strokes with a 10 inch chef knife. Especially considering the excellent wine we had enjoyed with dinner.

I know from talking to more experienced knife collectors that developing a relationship with a maker is the right way to have a chance to get those extra special knives. And makers who know that you appreciate their work as a knife, and are not necessarily going to be selling their work may offer you better deals, or simply go that extra mile to make you happy.

Paracelsus, customer

(my apologies to those who may have already read parts of this post in another thread. After posting it elsewhere, I realized it makes just as much sense here in this thread)

[This message has been edited by Paracelsus (edited 02-27-2001).]
 
Ok, how about this, who's gonna give up tips about interacting with Makers, over the phone, email, at shows? I know some of the new collectors may be a bit shy when it comes to talking to a maker, especially if they want the maker to make them a special knife.

If I get an ok from you guys, and interest, I will add my 2 cents worth, and then you guys with more experience can add to, or correct the assumptions I postulate. I could turn this into a HUGE post, but would rather break it down into 2 or 3 parts with each area defined seperately.

Let me know.

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Peace

Paul
Custom Knife Purveyor
"We support the new maker!"
I take Paypal. ask me how??
Circle P Knives
 
I think that might be covered under communication. Stay tuned.

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" The real art of living is to keep alive the longing in human beings to become greater versions of themselves." Laurens Van der Post in memory of James Mattis
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by PhilL:
Compared to some of the people on the Forums I'm a FNG when it comes to Custom knives, but I have gone through the process of having a knife made to my design four times with a fifth on the way. I've been trying to encourage folks to go get the knife of their dreams made instead of just buying production knives.

All of these knives are too special to me to even think about Resale.
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Great post by PhilL. And having purchased several customs based on my ideas/design/sketches, I couldn't agree more. It is a very rewarding experience if you choose the right, high quality makers.
 
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