Week One - Makers and Collectors

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Keith Montgomery:
When I purchase a custom knife I always ask for the input of the man who makes the knife. I know basicly what I want, but feel the experience of the man I am dealing with to be invaluable in helping end up with knife that I was hopeing for.

I go in knowing what I want my knife to look like and what I want it to be made of. I work together with the maker do decide on the overall design. At that point I get out of his way and let him do what he does best, which is to make my dream come true.
Keith.</font>
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Another excellent point. I would like to emphasize that when you envision a custom project, absolutely the best way is to be thinking of a custom as an offshoot of some particular maker's forte in design and construction.

Some makers can do almost anything you ask (David Broadwell!). Most folder makers can make nice fixed blades, but the converse is not true.

Example: I like the Spyderco Wegner in many ways, but it has several design characteristics I don't like despite being a really nifty folder. I like semi-skinners. Very few semi-skinner linerlocks are on the market. I like Joel Chamblins and JW Smith's work, fit/finish/precision -wise, and at fair prices. I contacted both, knowing that both had existing handle/liner/stop pin designs on existing folders that I would like (i.e., the cost of a true one-off is higher than a knife based on an existing, debugged template). Joel was willing to work on a design for me based on a large folder handle he already has templates for with my own blade shape and choice of bolster and scales and clip position. I sketched it out, and will commission him to build very shortly.

I have several fixed blades from Dave Broadwell that were executed in this manner. I'll never sell them. It is a very rewarding experience.


[This message has been edited by rdangerer (edited 02-28-2001).]
 
Yes I agree with Keith and PhilL, there is really something great about working closely with a maker to get just the knife you want. And then when you get it, made EXACTLY the way you want it, the feeling is incredible. It's like, now that's what I want in a knife! I also agree that the few knives that I have actual had done for me this way, are not for sale nor will they ever be!

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Peace

Paul
Custom Knife Purveyor
"We support the new maker!"
I take Paypal. ask me how??
Circle P Knives
 
Gus I will bow to your superior knowledge. Let me know where to post that info, and when ;0

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Peace

Paul
Custom Knife Purveyor
"We support the new maker!"
I take Paypal. ask me how??
Circle P Knives
 
Nothing superior about my knowledge Paul.

I am just a collector with a bunch of friends.

I learn from just about everyone here.
Including, as Phil calls them FNG's.


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" The real art of living is to keep alive the longing in human beings to become greater versions of themselves." Laurens Van der Post in memory of James Mattis
 
I'd like to add a comment here. Although I enjoy working on the designs of the custom knives I have made, I understand that this is what I want and may not appeal to everyone (or anyone else). So for someone that is looking down the line to trade or resell their knives this could be a negative, so be careful what you ask for.
 
PkilL,

I myself when I have a knife made for me, to my specs do so for my own personal gratification/consumption. I have no plans in selling these knives, they are special, and dear to me. I know that peoples tastes are varied and widely different than mine. I know of a few who have a certain model made for them, an exclusive, I have no problem with that, just would never have one made for me that I would contemplate selling down the line. Just not me ;-)

Thanks for the heads up though



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Peace

Paul
Custom Knife Purveyor
"We support the new maker!"
I take Paypal. ask me how??
Circle P Knives
 
(OK, Gus. I'll try another post.)

The most important thing to remember when placing an order with a maker is to be specific and to be sure of what you're asking for. I offer two examples:

One customer asked for a special folder design with a tip down carry position. From what I understood, this meant that the clip would be attached near the front of the handle so the knife tip (when carried in the closed position) pointed down. The customer thought "tip down" meant the clip would be put on at the back end of the handle. Unfortunately, we did not discover the difference of perspective until after the knife was delivered.

In another instance, a customer asked for a certain pattern, but wanted the blade 1/2" larger than the "standard" model. When he received the folder, he said he was surprised at how much heavier it was. I was unaware that weight was a concern and, therefore, didn't think it necessary to tell him his larger knife would weigh a bit more than the "standard" pattern. (The same materials were asked for and used.) I might have been able to do some machining on the inside of the handle to reduce the weight had I known this was a concern.

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I believe custom knifemakers strive very hard to make their customers happy. That is goal #1. Without happy customers, the custom knifemaker will not survive. However, both the maker and the customer must be responsive to post questions and make recommendations in the beginning to ensure both are satisfied in the end.



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Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives
 
I know that there are many ways to choose a knifemaker. I tend to go with makers who's work I have seen in magazines, books and in particular here on bladeforums. When I see something I really like I will try to find as many other knives by that person as I can.At that point I make my decision as to whether to have that maker build me a knife, or not.
I wish I was closer to areas that had big knife shows so that I could see and feel first hand these knives. IMO that is probably the best way to find designs that you like the most. You have such a great selection of knives that you can not possibly find any other way.
The internet has been indispensible in helping in my searh for the knives I want. Without it I doubt that I would have moved past production knives into the world of customs. Boy what I would have missed.

Keith.
 
Here is an area that is important. There are horror stories on both sides. I have not had one, but have heard of many and a few of them where even funny, most were bad experiences. We can learn from the bad experiences, I just do not have any other than goofballs at a table full of customs at a show. Happened all the time when I used to sell steadily.

Background. – Getting comfortable.
Finances:
This may sound basic, but it can be easy to get carried away.
First this stuff can be expensive make sure you are going for something you can afford. You might have a wait depending upon what you are doing. Do not over extend yourself. Take care of your normal expenditures and investments. Base your knife bucks on the amount of absolute disposable income that you feel comfortable in spending. If you are doing this as an investment, think again. Do not put yourself in the position where you would have to sell knives in a hurry to take care of a normal every day obligation. (Of course major decisions or other things pop up that might cause that to happen) The point is not to overextend yourself. Keep in mind many makers are full time. They may have a passion for their work, but they also have a life and their own financial constraints. I never have had one treat me as if they were entering a business transaction, but lets face it is one. Treat the financial part for what it is and be sure that you can fulfill your part of the commitment on time. Sticking to this mindset will make the rest of the process a lot of fun in my experience. You can forget about the money part. It does not matter if we are talking about a 150.00 custom or a 10k custom. That level of comfort will differ with each of us.

Once that gets figured out you should also have a better idea of who to talk to about the project (I.E. I want a 150.00 knife. I do not think I’ll go to Buster Warenski or Bill Moran on that one
biggrin.gif
.)


While you are deciding ask yourself the following.

Do I know what I am doing yet, or am I asking a person who forges carbon steel exclusively to make a stainless knife for me? Am I asking someone to do something they would rather not do? Get the idea, it is that homework thing again at the 101 level)
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(a funny one – I once asked a maker about a Price type California Bowie - had no business doing that from this guy he paves his own way when it comes to what he makes. I laugh now since I consider him a good friend that I would do just about anything for as long as it was at least legal and semi ethical
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)

Am I buying this custom from a person who stands behind what they sell or make? If the knife is being made for you, do you admire just about everything you have seen from that maker (if not everything)?

Several of us have hit on this one in previous posts, but it bears repeating. Do you know this makers work well enough to be sure that they will enjoy making your knife. There are a few makers out there who will do the knife you design to a T. I have not had a desire to do that, but I can see how some one would especially in the case of wanting a knife for specialized use. The point here in most cases is that it is best to bring some general ideas to the table and let the maker take off with it. (See what I mean about admiring just about anything that they make. This trust becomes easy when you have found the right maker for what you want.)

Any other thoughts?


Communication – next.


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" The real art of living is to keep alive the longing in human beings to become greater versions of themselves." Laurens Van der Post in memory of James Mattis
 
I do find that at times my desire for a knife and the state of my finances can be at odds. There has been times when I used the time that the maker said it would take to save the needed money. That being said, I have never had to cancel an order because of a lack of funds. That would be something I would hate to do. It would not be fair to the maker who agreed to make a knife for me based on my promise to pay when the knife was ready.
I have never had to sell a knife to pay bills, and would only do that if the situation was dire. They mean far to much to me to part with them.
Standing behind a knife they made is something I demand of the knifemaker that I choose. I will only deal with people that feel that they have an obligation to look after the knives they make. As of yet I have not found one maker that will not guarantee his product. As far as living up to that guarantee, I have not yet had to put that to the test.

Keith.
 
I know that one Keith, I have at times gotten in too deep with a knife, and had to scrape pennies and nickles together, sell the cat, you name it to get that elusive knife. But I cn say with all honesty I do not regret one bit a single one of my purchases. Most to the time interaction with a maker
(communication) is a deciding factor for me. Will continue when "communication" is brought up by Gus.

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Peace

Paul
Custom Knife Purveyor
"We support the new maker!"
I take Paypal. ask me how??
Circle P Knives
 
As most people who know me are aware I have great admiration for Jim Ence. I also love daggers. Ihave several of his pieces. In talking with him I asked if another maker had ever done a piece with him as a joint effort. We were talking about a specific well known maker. Jim said no but If I was interested he would check and see if there was any interest. He said yes the interest was there and did I wish to go forward with the project.I did and we discussed Materials,Size,dagger{no wasp}and last, cost and a delivery date.The delivery will be at Solvang and I can tell you April still seems like a million years away.I trust the artistic integrity of the artist but better yet he knows me.He knows what lights my light and what I'm less than overwhelmed about.Is thiis a custom,Oh yeah and is it handmade,oh yeah. when the dust settles I'll post a pic.
 
Some makers are collectors, too. In fact, that's how I started in the world of custom knives.

Every year, I try to scrape together enough capital to buy at least one custom knife from a fellow maker who I am "comfortable" with. (There are lots of knives and lots of makers on my list.) The top choices are knives from makers who have helped me along the way of making knives through inspiration or technical assistance.

In some instances, one of my knives was traded for the other makers - but, ONLY if they showed some interest in one of my knives first (without prodding) and I had one of thiers on my list. In some instances, services (such as engraving or tutoring) were part of the trade. Each of these knives remains a very special part of my collection because I know that there is a little part of the maker in each and every one of them. There is also a certain level of mutual respect that will always be appreciated every time I handle one of them.



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Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives
 
communication

Honesty and openness are really all that it takes. Don’t start off blowing smoke ease into the conversation. Makers, keeping in contact with your clients is just as important. Touch base with the guys on your waiting list every once in a while. You may want to consider a quarterly flyer. Let them know what is going on, new projects, new stuff you are trying, equipment upgrades. If something came up that will affect delivery times. Let the folks know. We are all human; things come up in life; most reasonable people will understand. It is hard to be able to predict what might occur months or years down the line.

I am going on the assumption that the trust part of the equation in place.
Waiting. Few things get to me more than an experienced collector putting unreasonable pressure on a maker to complete a knife. I know the excitement well (especially when the wait has been long), but temper it. Do you really want the maker to be in a hurry when your (or for that matter anyone’s) knife is being worked on? (that thought should take care of it). In most cases I usually can not wait to get my hands on a finished knife, but what is the big deal, it will get here when it gets here. If I need a knife there are others around to use.

There are going to be horror stories here, I have been lucky and do not have any to offer. I think the luck has come about through taking the time to choose and developing a high level of comfort with the maker.

When things drag out a little too long - Even the best of these guys need a little prodding on occasions. The key here is to use the relationship you have established and accept the fact that that things come up that can slow things down. If you feel you have to prod do it, but do not be an ass about it. Knife companies do collaborations, project opportunities come up. Put yourself in the makers shoes. It is hard to plan for major things when you are taking an order that may not be started for a few months or even years. (Keep in mind I am not defending you slackers.
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unless you have stayed in communication with your clients). I am not that much of all accepting person, I do wonder what is going on when a promise date is made and I do not hear anything. If I know what is going on with the individual, it does not bother me. If they have not stayed in touch. I start to question my decision to work with them.

Let’s get down to the knife. Start off slow. Tell the person you have some ideas and present them a little at a time easing into the details. This can be one of the best aspects of the deal if it is handled correctly. Start off general, let the maker give feedback and listen carefully. Many knife collectors and makers who have been around for a while do not hit you over the head with a “NO”. They send messages when they say, I do not usually use or try this or that (if you don’t hear a “,but I would like to try it” tacked on to the end of that type of statement think about what you have asked for. You have been thinking about the knife for a while. Let the maker catch up with you so they can bring their ideas to the table. Those ideas the maker brings will end up melding with yours, if you give the maker the chance. They are going to come up with ideas you have not considered and some of those will end up “blowing you away” Give them the chance; in every case I have been thrilled with the end result. It might take a few weeks. Going at it with patience and letting it evolve the right way will add much enjoyment to the whole process. I have had a few friendships that started as making contact at a show on a project then over the period of a few weeks (giving the maker a chance to catch their breath after a show. In a lot of cases they have poured it on getting ready for it and then have traveled, and had long days and nights at the show.) Don’t call them up the next day after you have made contact at a show and start pouring the project down their throats when they are still red eyed and tired. I have found it best to talk face to face if possible or at least over the phone. I do not use email to do much other than to say hello and or pass drawings or pictures back and forth. Hard to pick up a tone of voice with email sometimes.

(More later).


[This message has been edited by Gus Kalanzis (edited 03-02-2001).]
 
I've already posted about customer/maker communications (sorry for jumping the gun, Gus!). But I would like to add something concerning the waiting period for a custom knife.

Sometimes, a maker might actually finish the knife ahead of schedule. If it was not a pre-paid order, the customer might not be able to pay for it any earlier than the original date quoted. I allow my customers time to get the funds together in those instances. Whether they can pay early is no big deal - I just simply hold the knife.

Gus made another excellent point about occasionally contacting the maker to see how the knife is coming along. Makers can get very busy and simply forget that they have that "one more" knife to deliver next month! (Of course, some people's idea of the term "occasionally" might differ from others - but I'm going to join Gus in avoiding any "horror stories.") So far, my customers have been very understanding and usually don't call until about a month before delivery is due (or I call them first).

The reasons why a maker quotes "extended" deliveries are many. Some are related to obtaining "special" materials, where the maker may be entirely at the mercy of one supplier. Some are related to subcontracted services such as sheath making, heat treating, and engraving. I agree it is the responsibility of the maker to let his customers know why any delay will occur.

Adding purveyors to the transaction spreads these obligations even further. Purveyors are customers, too! Thus, they share in the responsibility to keep in touch with both the maker and their customer to make sure everybody is satisfied when the knife is delivered. That can't be an easy job, if the purveyor does it well!

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Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives
 
I do not believe in rushing a knifemaker in the hopes it will get me a knife sooner. If there is a good reason that my knife will be delayed then I can live with the delay, as long as it is reasonable. I would not want indefinite delays to occur, but legitimate reasons do come up and are understandable. Never have I had thoughts that a maker was a slacker, because I have never been given reason to.
As far as keeping in contact is concerned, I am a big believer in this. I do not want to appear to be rushing things, but I like to be kept up on how things are going. I find that the makers that I deal with could do a little better job of informing me of the progress that is being made on my knife. About the only way I get this information is to contact the maker myself. This may appear that I am impatient or am trying to rush the job. This is not the intention at all. When you order a knife you want it to come as soon as possible and my keeping in touch eases the anxiety of waiting. I do try not to be a pest however because I would rather the maker were making my knife than talking to or emailing me. An update every 2 or 3 months would be greatly appreciated.
So tell me you knifemakers, do you consider people like me to be reasonable or do you think us a bit of a bother?

Keith.
 
phil,i agree with you. i have two customs right now, and two more on the way. the two i got right now i dont even think about selling or trading.
 
I have only had a few made for me from scratch, all the experiences were good, I taked respectfully to the maker, not demanding not pressuring. I did have to give a nudge or two, but if you call them everyday near the deadline, after the deadline before anywhere near the deadline, you are going to antagonize the maker, not a good thing.

Know of a few makers(no names) who have thrown up their hands and walked away from a commission because of the hassle from the makee. So if you are an impatient person, curb your natural tendency to check everyday, let the maker do what he does. Ask once or twice LISTEN to the response carefully, communication is king in this business



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Peace

Paul
Custom Knife Purveyor
"We support the new maker!"
I take Paypal. ask me how??
Circle P Knives
 
Paul I agree with you 100% and do not believe in contacting the maker unless I am thinking of making a change, or just want to find out how things are going. This will not be often because I would rather the maker spend his time making knives than talking to me. If I have not been contacted by a couple of weeks after the due date for the knife then I will get in touch to check on the progress.

Keith.
 
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