Went to buy a Sebenza, almost walked out with a ZT0562?

[RBid]

Your turn of phrase struck a chord as it reminded of something similar I wrote in the OP of the Bears' Den thread--Shirogorov knives "share the seemingly contradictory qualities of being both over-priced and completely worth it."

I like how you wrote that piece. These kinds of statements can sound nonsensical, until there are degrees of familiarity and perspective to digest them with. Then, it all snaps into clear focus.

 

[Lapedog]

Thanks, Lapedog for clearing up that it's just the under-scale liner that's steel on the knives in question and BHQ has it at least partially wrong in their specs. I too would prefer to see an all CF side on my 0562, @craytab , like on my 0452, the aftermarket scale on my 0450, or the show side on my Shiro 111, the lock side being CF with with a housed Ti liner. Hati's also have all composite presentation sides of CF, G10, Alutex, or other material with no apparent diminishment in strength. 'Twould seem such construction would be simpler and, by turn, more economical.

Funny you should say that. I just sent this one off to my boy to have him do a liner delete on it. He will replace the g10 scale and liner with one piece of carbon fibre.

My HD7 has only g10 no liner on the show side and is a much nicer knife because of it in my opinion.

marrenmiller knives like alot of Striders or the Emerson framelocks or even the ZT452 have no linee and don’t seem to suffer from any lack of stiffness.

 

[marrenmiller]

I don’t know. Cf and g10 are pretty stiff too. There are lots if framelocks that have no liners under the scale. The knives are already stiff enough without a liner for folder tasks.

In terms of stiffness, both are significantly less stiff than steel, or even titanium, with CF being more stiff than G10 and about comparable to aluminum as implemented by most knife companies. If you need the keep the knife frame from flexing, steel is best. I think ideally each side of the handle should be balanced in stiffness. There are a number of knives that get away without it, and there also seems to be a number of ZTs without steel liners that have lockbars that can be pushed all the way over to the other scale side.

 

[marrenmiller]

Funny you should say that. I just sent this one off to my boy to have him do a liner delete on it. He will replace the g10 scale and liner with one piece of carbon fibre.

My HD7 has only g10 no liner on the show side and is a much nicer knife because of it in my opinion.

marrenmiller knives like alot of Striders or the Emerson framelocks or even the ZT452 have no linee and don’t seem to suffer from any lack of stiffness.

It sure seems like there's tons of framelocks out there (like the 0452) where you can push the locking liner or frame all the way across the blade, which strikes me as symptomatic of a handle design that's not properly stiffened on the show side. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I think steel liners can be a smart choice if well implemented.

 

[Lapedog]

It sure seems like there's tons of framelocks out there where you can push the locking liner or frame all the way across the blade, which strikes me as symptomatic of a handle design that's not properly stiffened on the show side. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I think steel liners can be a smart choice if well implemented.

The lockbar being able to be pushed over to the other side is due to poor lock geometry. On my 562 I can push it almost to the other side and it has a steel liner.

I’m not saying these composite materials are as stiff as steel. I’m saying that for the use a folding knife will recieve the stiffness of g10 or cf is suffiicient that a steel liner isn’t also needed.

 

[marrenmiller]

The lockbar being able to be pushed over to the other side is due to poor lock geometry. On my 562 I can push it almost to the other side and it has a steel liner.

I’m not saying these composite materials are as stiff as steel. I’m saying that for the use a folding knife will recieve the stiffness of g10 or cf is suffiicient that a steel liner isn’t also needed.

Sure, that's fair. My 0562 would do it too. It very well might be due to their poor lock geometry as well. I bet the problem is more prevalent on knives without liners though, though I have no way of confirming that.

My point isn't that other materials will work, because of course they do. But why would anyone blame a company that touts "proudly overbuilt" for using something heavier and stiffer? I'd bet ZT's engineers have calculated that a CF/G10 scale with a steel liner opposite a Ti frame result in a knife handle that's not going to deflect significantly more to one side than another when loaded. In other words, their steel liner might prevent certain issues with the frame/lock design that nobody is really considering when they complain about the use of steel.

 

[Lapedog]

Sure, that's fair. My 0562 would do it too. It very well might be due to their poor lock geometry as well.

My point isn't that other materials will work, because of course they do. But why would anyone blame a company that touts "proudly overbuilt" for using something heavier and stiffer? I'd bet ZT's engineers have calculated that a CF/G10 scale with a steel liner opposite a Ti frame result in a knife handle that's not going to deflect significantly more to one side than another when loaded. In other words, their steel liner might prevent other issues with the frame/lock design.

I think the issue is more that ZT doesn’t really state anywhere obvious that the liners are steel. Alot of people think they are getting a titanium liner when they buy a titanium framelock.

Also that they could atleast skeletonize the steel liner or switch it to titanium and charge 10$ more for each folder.

It’s not a huge deal that ZT is using steel liners but it feels sort of like I am going into the shoe store to buy a pair of leather boots. I notice a tag on the right boot that says genuine leather and buy the pair. Later on I find out that only the right boot with the tag that says genuine leather was actually made from leather, the left boot was not.

 

[marrenmiller]

I think the issue is more that ZT doesn’t really state anywhere obvious that the liners are steel. Alot of people think they are getting a titanium liner when they buy a titanium framelock.

Also that they could atleast skeletonize the steel liner or switch it to titanium and charge 10$ more for each folder.

It’s not a huge deal that ZT is using steel liners but it feels sort of like I am going into the shoe store to buy a pair of leather boots. I notice a tag on the right boot that says genuine leather and buy the pair. Later on I find out that only the right boot with the tag that says genuine leather was actually made from leather, the left boot was not.

I don't know why anyone would assume they are. I believe they're listed as steel on retailer sites like BladeHQ and GPKnives. Do people not read up on a knife before they buy one?

Serious question: which major knife companies do that aside from Hinderer? I can think of a number that use steel liners with Ti frame locks, but not any other than Hinderer that use titanium for the show side liner on a framelock.

Skeletonizing the steel liners is a smart idea but you'll lose rigidity doing so. If their intent was balancing stiffness then I wouldn't expect them to do that.

 

[Lapedog]

I don't know why anyone would assume they are. I believe they're listed as steel on retailer sites like BladeHQ and GPKnives. Do people not read up on a knife before they buy one?

Serious question: which major knife companies do that aside from Hinderer? I can think of a number that use steel liners with Ti frame locks, but not any other than Hinderer that use titanium for the show side liner on a framelock.

Skeletonizing the steel liners is a smart idea but you'll lose rigidity doing so. If their intent was balancing stiffness then I wouldn't expect them to do that.

Spyderco Southard uses ti as the liner. I think it is actually the opposite. Everyone uses titanium liners except ZT. The only company I can think of that does something similar is Emerson who uses titanium on their lockside and steel as the nonlocking liner on their linerlocks.

In Emerson’s case I almost wish they would swap and use steel for the lockside if they are going to use one steel liner, so we could atleast get the better wearing properties of a steel lockface.

 

[marrenmiller]

Spyderco Southard uses ti as the liner. I think it is actually the opposite. Everyone uses titanium liners except ZT. The only company I can think of that does something similar is Emerson who uses titanium on their lockside and steel as the nonlocking liner on their linerlocks.

In Emerson’s case I almost wish they would swap and use steel for the lockside if they are going to use one steel liner, so we could atleast get the better wearing properties of a steel lockface.

Well, which companies, specifically? ZT and lionsteel use steel.

 

[Lapedog]

Well, which companies, specifically? ZT and lionsteel use steel.

Which folders is lionsteel using steel liners on? On my Lionspy there is no liner. On my DPX HEST there is no liner. Many of their folders are integral, they use no liners.

 

[Lapedog]

Well, which companies, specifically? ZT and lionsteel use steel.

Anyway I’m sure other companies do it too. I’m just saying I prefer it when they don’t and that it isn’t exactly uncommon for titanium framelocks to use titanium liners under a composite scale.

 

[ChazzyP]

I don't know why anyone would assume they are. I believe they're listed as steel on retailer sites like BladeHQ and GPKnives. Do people not read up on a knife before they buy one?

For what it's worth,excerpted from my earlier post on Page 3--

"Going to the BHQ site, as they have pretty much all the specs listed for any given knife, the "Frame/Liner" line for the 560, 561, 562, and 452 all indicate titanium as the material." "Does BHQ have it all partially or completely wrong?" [That would be a yes for all but the 0452.]

Of the 5-series knife models mentioned above, GP lists only the 0562. They do indicate "liner(s)" as "Stainless" with the "Handle Material" listed as "Carbon fiber & Titanium".

 

[archieblue]

I choose each new knife as a complete sum of its parts. When each facet of a complete piece is examined I find it fairly easy to “no go” a knife. So far every ZT has at least one deal breaker. Typically it’s just the overall look, but it is not uncommonly screws being threaded either into a barrel spacer or even threaded into a handle scale. It may be the weight. It may be the placement or size of the stop pin that turns me away. Often it’s simply the clip or even the clips fasteners. For a knife at the price of a ZT, usage of a stainless steel liner is definitely a deal breaker for me. Once the price rises above PM2 I begin to get seriously picky. When a knife begins to get unnecessarily complicated, I easily look elsewhere

I really enjoy CRKs. Sure there are a bazillion knives out there to choose from but they are still one of the very few who really cuts few corners in design and manufacture. As a full time carpenter and much time outdoorsman, I Still have yet to meet an all around knife steel that I prefer to S35VN. My knives are all-around users. If I need to do a really specific task, such as yesterday installing synthetic turf, I know I need crazy edge retention and I am fairly certain that the edge will not come in to contact with something seriously edge deforming such as other metal or stone, I’ll be the first to reach for an M390 or 204p knife. These steels are IMO more suited to specific tasks where S35VN is a superior all arounder.

So, in a nutshell, I feel that a CRK is one of the best overall “packages.” The sum of its parts really leaves little to be desired for me. Sure, it may not look as fancy as a Kizer and it does not have the fun factor of a flipper or even an Axis lock but few knives meet the criteria I look for in a constant companion type of knife.

 

[marrenmiller]

For a knife at the price of a ZT, usage of a stainless steel liner is definitely a deal breaker for me.

Mind if I ask why? What is the stainless liner doing worse than titanium for your uses?

 

[archieblue]

Mind if I ask why? What is the stainless liner doing worse than titanium for your uses?

The way I see it is if it’s an option it is under consideration. Corrosion resistance is something I’m willing to drop extra coin on fo sho. I take better care of my knives than anyone I’ve ever met -in person- but I can still end up swimming with a knife or doing a bunch of food prep at a party and forgetting to clean it... etc.