Western knives

dsutton24 said:
Western moved to Longmont in 1978, so a Boulder stamped knife probably predates that.

A note about dating knives: Unless the knife has a date code of some kind on it, dating any knife based on tang stamps is an approximation at best. Every chart I've ever seen has had problems, and the charts floating around for Western knives are no exception. The book The Knife Makers Who Went West, written by Harvey Platts himself has a chart in it that's widely reproduced, has many problems. A very common Western sheath knife tang stamp is simply two lines: Western / Boulder Colo. (no 'USA'). The chart says that it should be '31 at the latest, I know from having bought two of them new in the 70s that that is probably not right.

This is not in any way a criticism, it's an observation based on handling a lot of knives. I'm a long time Western collector, and they sometimes stump me. I'm sure I'm not alone. Add to that the idea that anything made before 1990 or so it thought by many to be ancient... There's a lot of history between the end of WWII and the 90s that seems to run together for a lot of people.

Often the best way to date a knife is to post a few close, clear pictures showing the tang stamp, handle construction, etc. Make note of the materials the knife is made of. If you've got the sheath, and think it's original to the knife, that can very often be a valuable clue.
Click to expand...

WESTERN over BOULDER, COLO. all by itself on the mark side ricasso, and nothing on the pile side ricasso or on the guard is going to be 1928 to 1936, regardless of what the chart says about 1931 being the end date.

There are 1936 catalog models with the stamp on them (in the 1936 catalog but were not in the 1931 catalog). These could have been made in 1935 before the 1936 catalog came out, but would be considered 1936 knives. Western would introduce new models and cancel old ones without putting out a new catalog. A new catalog would come out only after XX% changes had ocurred.

Some of the knives with these stamps may have been late/early Western fixed blades. One must compare the actual knife with known U/M/C knives to see which one the Western stamped knife matches to see who made it for Western. I say "late/early" as a desciptor for early Western fixed blades made late in the contract knives period for fixed blades.

Western did not start making their own fixed blades until about 1928. Everything prior to 1925 was stamped with the stamp of whoever made it - mostly Marbles and Union.

The stamp seen on the 1925 to 1931 early contract knives seems to have been an arched "WESTERN STATES" over a straight line "CUT. & MFG. CO." over "BOULDER, COLO."

I believe the arched WESTERN STATES over BOULDER, COLO. sans "CUT. & MFG. CO." to be Western produced from 1928 to 1931, maybe a little later.

Most of the 1931/1936 era knives that were NOT bifurcated tang knives have WEST-CUT over BOULDER, COLO. stamps on the mark side ricasso.

A lot of the knives that people confuse with the early Western knives is the 1967 to 1972 period and the 1973 to 1976 period.

They see

WESTERN over BOULDER, COLO. over U.S.A. or WESTERN over BOULDER, COLO, U.S.A.
or
WESTERN over U.S.A.

with no model number and assume "old", i.e., pre-1955, when model numbers were first added.

The problem is they never look at the guard, which is where the model numbers were stamped from 1967 to 1976. I've had well over 200 conversations with people who, until I asked or pointed it out, never even looked at the guard of their "pre-WW2 Western" and just assumed it was ancient due to no model number on either ricasso OR believed what they were told by the person from whom they bought it.

1967 to 1972 knives will have BOULDER COLO in the stamp and a model number on the guard.

1973 to 1976 knives will have WESTERN over U.S.A. with a model number on the guard.

Reference to BOULDER COLO in the stamp ceased starting in 1973.
 
zzyzzogeton said:
WESTERN over BOULDER, COLO. all by itself on the mark side ricasso, and nothing on the pile side ricasso or on the guard is going to be 1928 to 1936, regardless of what the chart says about 1931 being the end date...
Click to expand...

Not all Western / Boulder Colo. knives without model numbers, be they on the tang or the guard date from the thirties. As I posted earlier, I have two that are stamped as such, and they have to date from the 70s, not the 30s, as that was when they were purchased, they weren't forty years old then. I've seen others. It's generally easy to tell the difference between a ninety year old knife and a forty year old knife.

Knife makers are notorious for finding parts or stamps in forgotten corners and just using them. Add to that the fact that most, if not all knife brands farmed a lot of their product out to other manufacturers and at various times. You've also got to remember that dating knives is a modern affectation that comes from hobby collectors, not from most manufacturers. You cannot say, with any certainty, that the lack of a model number on a guard means manufacture before 1936 (or 1931) when examples from the 70s certainly do exist. Was there a gap between 1936 and 1976 when these knives weren't made? Maybe, it's impossible to know.

In the end it really doesn't matter much. Westerns from the first half of the 20th century aren't valuable knives, at least in part since it's rare to find them in mint condition. They were bought to use, and they were often well used. They are great knives, and their history is usually more compelling than their monetary value.

The bottom line is this: You can't trust any tang stamp chart one hundred percent unless the manufacturer included a date code. You think Western is bad, you should try to date Boker...
 
dsutton24 said:
You think Western is bad, you should try to date Boker...
Click to expand...
Or Puma ... Otter Messer ... Ulster ... Colonial ... Camillus ... Utica ... and/or even Rough Rider/Ryder 🤔😳☹️
(I'm told "Ryder" was used in the early days, was changed to "Rider" after a few years. It was changed to "Ryder" again a couple years ago.
I asked SMKW if the tang stamps are/ have been changed every so often, which could help determine a range of years the knife in question was manufactured.
Their answer: "We use whatever tang stamp we think looks good on the pattern. The tang stamp can't be used to help date the knives.")
 
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Small Western

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Large (gone)

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dsutton24 said:
Western moved to Longmont in 1978, so a Boulder stamped knife probably predates that.

A note about dating knives: Unless the knife has a date code of some kind on it, dating any knife based on tang stamps is an approximation at best. Every chart I've ever seen has had problems, and the charts floating around for Western knives are no exception. The book The Knife Makers Who Went West, written by Harvey Platts himself has a chart in it that's widely reproduced, has many problems. A very common Western sheath knife tang stamp is simply two lines: Western / Boulder Colo. (no 'USA'). The chart says that it should be '31 at the latest, I know from having bought two of them new in the 70s that that is probably not right.

This is not in any way a criticism, it's an observation based on handling a lot of knives. I'm a long time Western collector, and they sometimes stump me. I'm sure I'm not alone. Add to that the idea that anything made before 1990 or so it thought by many to be ancient... There's a lot of history between the end of WWII and the 90s that seems to run together for a lot of people.

Often the best way to date a knife is to post a few close, clear pictures showing the tang stamp, handle construction, etc. Make note of the materials the knife is made of. If you've got the sheath, and think it's original to the knife, that can very often be a valuable clue.
Click to expand...
Thank you so much for the information! I just started collecting knives a few years ago and there’s so much I don’t know. Because of that I’m so careful in what I buy.
 
dsutton24 said:
Western moved to Longmont in 1978, so a Boulder stamped knife probably predates that.

A note about dating knives: Unless the knife has a date code of some kind on it, dating any knife based on tang stamps is an approximation at best. Every chart I've ever seen has had problems, and the charts floating around for Western knives are no exception. The book The Knife Makers Who Went West, written by Harvey Platts himself has a chart in it that's widely reproduced, has many problems. A very common Western sheath knife tang stamp is simply two lines: Western / Boulder Colo. (no 'USA'). The chart says that it should be '31 at the latest, I know from having bought two of them new in the 70s that that is probably not right.

This is not in any way a criticism, it's an observation based on handling a lot of knives. I'm a long time Western collector, and they sometimes stump me. I'm sure I'm not alone. Add to that the idea that anything made before 1990 or so it thought by many to be ancient... There's a lot of history between the end of WWII and the 90s that seems to run together for a lot of people.

Often the best way to date a knife is to post a few close, clear pictures showing the tang stamp, handle construction, etc. Make note of the materials the knife is made of. If you've got the sheath, and think it's original to the knife, that can very often be a valuable clue.
Click to expand...
 
dsutton24 said:
Not all Western / Boulder Colo. knives without model numbers, be they on the tang or the guard date from the thirties. As I posted earlier, I have two that are stamped as such, and they have to date from the 70s, not the 30s, as that was when they were purchased, they weren't forty years old then. I've seen others. It's generally easy to tell the difference between a ninety year old knife and a forty year old knife.

Knife makers are notorious for finding parts or stamps in forgotten corners and just using them. Add to that the fact that most, if not all knife brands farmed a lot of their product out to other manufacturers and at various times. You've also got to remember that dating knives is a modern affectation that comes from hobby collectors, not from most manufacturers. You cannot say, with any certainty, that the lack of a model number on a guard means manufacture before 1936 (or 1931) when examples from the 70s certainly do exist. Was there a gap between 1936 and 1976 when these knives weren't made? Maybe, it's impossible to know.

In the end it really doesn't matter much. Westerns from the first half of the 20th century aren't valuable knives, at least in part since it's rare to find them in mint condition. They were bought to use, and they were often well used. They are great knives, and their history is usually more compelling than their monetary value.

The bottom line is this: You can't trust any tang stamp chart one hundred percent unless the manufacturer included a date code. You think Western is bad, you should try to date Boker...
Click to expand...

The first sentence in the first paragraph of what I quoted does not accurately reflect what I said. I did NOT say that all Western knives without a model number are from the 1930s.

You are not interpreting what I wrote the way I meant it. So let's say it in definitive statements.

NO Western knife made BEFORE 1955 has a model number.

ALL Western knives made AFTER 1955 have a model number.

ALL references to the bifurcated tang construction patent were dropped sometime after 1950 and before 1955.

I have seen the date 1952 and 1953 used as to when the patent reference was dropped several times, but I don't know which, if either one is correct. I think it depends on WHEN the last run for a particular model was made. It could have been as late as 1954 or 1955. I know I have on my possession 3 knives that have a reference to the patent number on the mark side and a model number on pile side. Probably knives made from left over parts as the new 1955 versions were being made.

IF a Western knife has "USA" or "U.S.A." or "MADE IN USA" or "MADE IN U.S.A." as part of the stamp, whether on the mark side or pile side, it was made AFTER WW2.

IF a Western knife has BOULDER, COLO, as part of the stamp, it was made before 1973. IF it does NOT have BOULDER, COLO. as part of the stamp, it was made in 1973 or later.

Please post pictures of the knives you mentioned in your paragraph 2 so we can see what you are referencing to be 1970s made knives without model numbers.

I have never, in 45+ years of collecting and studying Western knives, encountered a Western-made knife that was made after 1955 that was without a model number, either on the guard or the ricasso, until the Chinese-made knives peddled by The ACME Corp" started showing up post-2007, after they bought the IP at the Camillus bankruptcy auction and would dearly love to see such knives. I have seen knives that had been modified after factory sale that had model numbers covered by after-market handles or obliterated by tinkerers.
 
dsutton24 said:
Western moved to Longmont in 1978, so a Boulder stamped knife probably predates that.

A note about dating knives: Unless the knife has a date code of some kind on it, dating any knife based on tang stamps is an approximation at best. Every chart I've ever seen has had problems, and the charts floating around for Western knives are no exception. The book The Knife Makers Who Went West, written by Harvey Platts himself has a chart in it that's widely reproduced, has many problems. A very common Western sheath knife tang stamp is simply two lines: Western / Boulder Colo. (no 'USA'). The chart says that it should be '31 at the latest, I know from having bought two of them new in the 70s that that is probably not right.

This is not in any way a criticism, it's an observation based on handling a lot of knives. I'm a long time Western collector, and they sometimes stump me. I'm sure I'm not alone. Add to that the idea that anything made before 1990 or so it thought by many to be ancient... There's a lot of history between the end of WWII and the 90s that seems to run together for a lot of people.

Often the best way to date a knife is to post a few close, clear pictures showing the tang stamp, handle construction, etc. Make note of the materials the knife is made of. If you've got the sheath, and think it's original to the knife, that can very often be a valuable clue.
Click to expand...
Here are some photos you suggested I post. I was recently told this knife was made in the early 60’s. Does that sound correct?https://imgur.com/user/davestwin
 
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