- Joined
- Oct 9, 2003
- Messages
- 5,594
Excellent!
Thats a good start.
Thats a good start.
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Westrn MArtial Arts?
- Thread starter DannyinJapan
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2001
- Messages
- 20,978
That was a very-well-deadpanned comment you snuck in there mPisi....mPisi said:
LOL!!
DannyinJapan said:
Again, if you want to look into styles that were forged into perfection, look no futher than boxing, wrestling - freestyle and greco-roman - and Olympic fencing. If you like submissions, look into Russian Sambo. If you like kicking, look into savate AND Russian Sambo (military version comes with some kicking).
Having said that. I'm not even sure if this is a valid question: is there ANY fighting school that has no connection with other fighting schools? east and west weren't completely isolated, you know, the history of Russian Sambo is a good example of that. Furthermore: a kick is a kick, a punch is a punch, and a choke is a choke, you may find many similarities between different systems with seemingly different authenticities. Don't forget that westerners aren't exactly fighting newbies - Greeks had bloody Pancrase at their Olympics thousands of years ago.
More importantly, why look into authentic styles, other than for historical reasons? why not take advantage of the fact that we live in modern days, when we can actually combine, compare, and merge? Isn't the question "does it work?" thousand times more important than "where did it come from?"
Regards.
Hi Danny
The short answer to your question is that there are few if any pureblood WMA. Fencing, boxing and wrestling all have martial origins butare now compromised by their use as sports. There is a steady revival of WMA ongoing but IMHO anyone who is interested in that path needs to research the topic prior to joining up somewhere. There are a growing number of exponents who could be considered expert, but when you read their bios, almost all have EMA somewhere in the past. To some degree this is not relevant to the purity of what they now teach, philosophy aside.
The most important point is that they had the passion and dedication to move from one genre(common) to another(uncommon) and make it work. This is also demonstarted by a growing number of non-europeans involved.
Phil
The short answer to your question is that there are few if any pureblood WMA. Fencing, boxing and wrestling all have martial origins butare now compromised by their use as sports. There is a steady revival of WMA ongoing but IMHO anyone who is interested in that path needs to research the topic prior to joining up somewhere. There are a growing number of exponents who could be considered expert, but when you read their bios, almost all have EMA somewhere in the past. To some degree this is not relevant to the purity of what they now teach, philosophy aside.
The most important point is that they had the passion and dedication to move from one genre(common) to another(uncommon) and make it work. This is also demonstarted by a growing number of non-europeans involved.
Phil
- Joined
- May 18, 1999
- Messages
- 15,395
I have had several people over the years ask me about any ndn martial arts or ndn style of fighting.
There wasn't any organized method of fighting or martial arts among any of the tribes I know about.
The boys were encouraged to wrestle and to train with weapons by using scaled down versions in their games. It's unbeliveable how good some got but nothing organized was ever passed down.
Today I can relate the ndn skills with their common tools with the Nepali and other ethnic groups using their common tool in everyday life.
And with kids being all alike all over the world don't all kids wrestle and play similar challenging games?
I think it is the Eastern mind and thought processes more than anything else that brought us the organized Eastern Martial Arts. The Eastern Peoples were a little further up the ladder and were more assured as to where their next meal was coming from so that they had more time to develop such things IMO.
Does that sound about right?
I am under the understanding that there were a few Western Martial Arts but that they had been mostly lost over the years with the advancement of what is considered civilization.
With the availability of arms and them becoming cheaper and easier to obtain by the common man the old martial arts just weren't as important as they once were.
Does that sound about right as well?
You can tell I know absolutely nothing about any of the martial arts, East or West.
There wasn't any organized method of fighting or martial arts among any of the tribes I know about.
The boys were encouraged to wrestle and to train with weapons by using scaled down versions in their games. It's unbeliveable how good some got but nothing organized was ever passed down.
Today I can relate the ndn skills with their common tools with the Nepali and other ethnic groups using their common tool in everyday life.
And with kids being all alike all over the world don't all kids wrestle and play similar challenging games?
I think it is the Eastern mind and thought processes more than anything else that brought us the organized Eastern Martial Arts. The Eastern Peoples were a little further up the ladder and were more assured as to where their next meal was coming from so that they had more time to develop such things IMO.
Does that sound about right?
I am under the understanding that there were a few Western Martial Arts but that they had been mostly lost over the years with the advancement of what is considered civilization.
With the availability of arms and them becoming cheaper and easier to obtain by the common man the old martial arts just weren't as important as they once were.
Does that sound about right as well?
You can tell I know absolutely nothing about any of the martial arts, East or West.
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2000
- Messages
- 1,522
One thing that has bothered me about some "WMA" practioners, is how secretive they have been about their past. Many will have extensive, FMA training, but will not fess up to it. Often times Im left scratching my head at what they are teaching, going hmmm....that is almost exactly the same as FMA and they have extensive FMA training. Often times the only obvious WMA part is the weaponry, and fancy outfits. Anyways, I am all for resurrecting dead arts, but there is no need to be so secretive about filling in the holes. Bridging the gap from written word and pictures, to actual movement often times requires some background training. Its often amazing, how someone with an exclusive FMA background will differ in his approach to executing techniques in the old manuals, than someone with an exclusive Fencing backgroud. Which is the more correct way to approach bridging the gap? What may seem instinctive ways to "step" is often the background training kicking in and influencing the result.
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2003
- Messages
- 5,594
Like I said, it was all just curiosity.
One of the greatest things that MMA competition brought us, is recognition of the fact that no single art is sufficient to be the best - nowadays, top athletes have to work off their behinds and get fairly proficient in all of them. With consideration to their particularities, of course - an average short and stocky guy might be better off putting more emphasize on wrestling, while his longer friend would be better off investing more of his time into striking and limit wrestling to takedown defense.
Having said that, first MMA competitions exposed many EMA myths. Back then, they would match a pure stylist against a pure stylist - and then it turned out that an average wrestler would normally beat an average striker, a submission artist would beat both of the above, and most importantly, that the styles that don't emphausize full contact sparring as a mother of all trainings don't belong in those competitions, period.
Having said that, first MMA competitions exposed many EMA myths. Back then, they would match a pure stylist against a pure stylist - and then it turned out that an average wrestler would normally beat an average striker, a submission artist would beat both of the above, and most importantly, that the styles that don't emphausize full contact sparring as a mother of all trainings don't belong in those competitions, period.
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2000
- Messages
- 1,522
Part of what scares me about some WMA practioners (Im not pointing fingers, and it hasnt really come up in this thread but having seen a number of WMA vs EMA threads it somehow always seems to), is how vehement they can get about:
A. the purity of their style (oh there aint no EMA taint to it)
B. how their style is superios because Western Culture, as an imperial power, colonized a good portion of the world, and therfore that must mean WMA is superior to any EMA
Hey, I really dont care about superiority, or purity. Find what works and fits you, but then again how often are we gonna be in sword fights in this day and age (well there are other applications but well...). I just always get nervous though when it starts becoming a question of who had a superior culture. And again, this is not directed at anyone, but just a phenomena that has happened in other threads on the topic that have always kinda given me a little worry. When people start talking about superior culture (from any side of the coin Eastern or Western), reminds me of alot of arguments raised to justify such things as the Holocaust, Segregation, etc... Just want to throw this little caution out there. Every culture has its high points and low points (dont want to seem too PC).
A. the purity of their style (oh there aint no EMA taint to it)
B. how their style is superios because Western Culture, as an imperial power, colonized a good portion of the world, and therfore that must mean WMA is superior to any EMA
Hey, I really dont care about superiority, or purity. Find what works and fits you, but then again how often are we gonna be in sword fights in this day and age (well there are other applications but well...). I just always get nervous though when it starts becoming a question of who had a superior culture. And again, this is not directed at anyone, but just a phenomena that has happened in other threads on the topic that have always kinda given me a little worry. When people start talking about superior culture (from any side of the coin Eastern or Western), reminds me of alot of arguments raised to justify such things as the Holocaust, Segregation, etc... Just want to throw this little caution out there. Every culture has its high points and low points (dont want to seem too PC).
i hear ya.. i don't believe in pure styles either, east or west.
> how their style is superios because Western Culture, as an imperial power, colonized a good portion of the world, and therfore that must mean WMA is superior to any EMA
That's a very funny argument. People who use it might've not heard about firearms, or military strategy for that matter.
> how their style is superios because Western Culture, as an imperial power, colonized a good portion of the world, and therfore that must mean WMA is superior to any EMA
That's a very funny argument. People who use it might've not heard about firearms, or military strategy for that matter.
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2003
- Messages
- 243
to samoand,
> No, in MMA competitions the fighters use a lot of arts that come from Asia...
I never really said the opposite.
UH.... dude, I've already admitted my mistake in a post above.... yet you continue to rabble on.
If you want to argue, fine.
>Nearly every single striking move used is present in Thailand's Muay Thai, including boxing techniques.
so? "is present" doesn't mean much, does it? Thai boxing is a very effective style, but it's a completely different breed from western boxing.
Yes, almost all the moves that exists in boxing is present in Muay Thai, that means a helluv A LOT.
Thai boxing hand techniques and western boxing isn't as different as you think since there have been some excellent Muay Thai fighters who became excellent boxers, and while some of the fighters from Thailand have mediorce boxing skills, european Muay Thai fighter's hand techniques aren't much different from boxing at all.
>Jiu-jitsu gave rise to Brazilian jiu-jitsu, which is used pretty often too.
so? How much of original jiu-jitsu is actually used in MMA? How well would a pure JJ practitioner fair in an NHB fight?
I didn't say that a brazilian jiu-jitsu person would only have to use jiu-jitsu to win. They did succeed a few times when NHB was young however..
Where did I say that the original jiu-jitsu was used a lot in NHB events? The original JJ WAS modified to come up with modern BJJ, no? So it is important or else there would be no BJJ today.
"How well would a pure JJ practitioner fair in an NHB fight?" you mean no punches, no kicks just JJ, and nothing else?
You can't really only learn one style and prevail in events like this.
Then you turn around and say:
>I don't think so. Even the wrestlers have to learn how to take and give leg kicks and stuff from Eastern martial arts.
By the way, you are not even completely accurate here: wrestlers don't really do it the same way. Their objective is different - to close in.
Like wrestlers never do anything else but just wrestling moves. I know that wrestlers want to take their opponents down, duh, but they still have to learn some eastern striking moves.
Learning more moves = wider range of tactics you can apply.
Let me rephrase your original BJJ question a little bit to: "How well would a pure wrestler fair in an NHB fight?" And I mean no punches, no kicks just wrestling, and nothing else.
Why did Randy Couture (who is primarily a wrestler, and a damned good one) use leg kicks and punches when he could just take down Chuck Lidell and beat him on the ground? Remember that wider range of tactics thing.
Please. In the original post I didn't even mean to talk down Eastern MA-s - I didn't mention them at all, and no comparison was supposed to be implied. However - thanks to you - I moderately feel like doing so now: west may not have much in terms of quantity, but at least I can't think of a western art that lost it's aura and got humiliated in octagon - while I can certainly name few eastern arts that did exactly that. Yes, there are thai boxing, judo, and kyokushinkai - all worthy taking up. There are also fancy styles of karate and kung-fu, all with long, hardly pronounced names, and practicioners who got beaten up by ex-bodybilders with beer bellies.
I was mistaken and thought you meant western arts are more effective. And I've admitted my error, but even then, notice in my original un-edited post that I didn't bash the western martial arts like you did to the eastern arts?
I've only stated that eastern arts were used often and even the primarily western style practitioners adopted some of their moves.
So do you think pitting often much smaller and decidedly weaker eastern styled martial artists against bigger stronger street brawlers and wrestlers is a good way for comparing the different styles? pppffft...
I've never practiced any fancy Wushu type stuff BTW. Only Muay Thai and took a bit of boxing and hope to get into some grappling/ground stuff.
Wax in, wax out, grasshopper.
While I don't really like those movies or the martial arts in them, it's actually "Wax on, Wax off."
DannyinJapan,
I hope that with time you will eventually forgive me for derailing your thread. :footinmou
> No, in MMA competitions the fighters use a lot of arts that come from Asia...
I never really said the opposite.
UH.... dude, I've already admitted my mistake in a post above.... yet you continue to rabble on.
If you want to argue, fine.
>Nearly every single striking move used is present in Thailand's Muay Thai, including boxing techniques.
so? "is present" doesn't mean much, does it? Thai boxing is a very effective style, but it's a completely different breed from western boxing.
Yes, almost all the moves that exists in boxing is present in Muay Thai, that means a helluv A LOT.
Thai boxing hand techniques and western boxing isn't as different as you think since there have been some excellent Muay Thai fighters who became excellent boxers, and while some of the fighters from Thailand have mediorce boxing skills, european Muay Thai fighter's hand techniques aren't much different from boxing at all.
>Jiu-jitsu gave rise to Brazilian jiu-jitsu, which is used pretty often too.
so? How much of original jiu-jitsu is actually used in MMA? How well would a pure JJ practitioner fair in an NHB fight?
I didn't say that a brazilian jiu-jitsu person would only have to use jiu-jitsu to win. They did succeed a few times when NHB was young however..
Where did I say that the original jiu-jitsu was used a lot in NHB events? The original JJ WAS modified to come up with modern BJJ, no? So it is important or else there would be no BJJ today.
"How well would a pure JJ practitioner fair in an NHB fight?" you mean no punches, no kicks just JJ, and nothing else?
You can't really only learn one style and prevail in events like this.
Then you turn around and say:
>I don't think so. Even the wrestlers have to learn how to take and give leg kicks and stuff from Eastern martial arts.
By the way, you are not even completely accurate here: wrestlers don't really do it the same way. Their objective is different - to close in.
Like wrestlers never do anything else but just wrestling moves. I know that wrestlers want to take their opponents down, duh, but they still have to learn some eastern striking moves.
Learning more moves = wider range of tactics you can apply.
Let me rephrase your original BJJ question a little bit to: "How well would a pure wrestler fair in an NHB fight?" And I mean no punches, no kicks just wrestling, and nothing else.
Why did Randy Couture (who is primarily a wrestler, and a damned good one) use leg kicks and punches when he could just take down Chuck Lidell and beat him on the ground? Remember that wider range of tactics thing.
Please. In the original post I didn't even mean to talk down Eastern MA-s - I didn't mention them at all, and no comparison was supposed to be implied. However - thanks to you - I moderately feel like doing so now: west may not have much in terms of quantity, but at least I can't think of a western art that lost it's aura and got humiliated in octagon - while I can certainly name few eastern arts that did exactly that. Yes, there are thai boxing, judo, and kyokushinkai - all worthy taking up. There are also fancy styles of karate and kung-fu, all with long, hardly pronounced names, and practicioners who got beaten up by ex-bodybilders with beer bellies.
I was mistaken and thought you meant western arts are more effective. And I've admitted my error, but even then, notice in my original un-edited post that I didn't bash the western martial arts like you did to the eastern arts?
I've only stated that eastern arts were used often and even the primarily western style practitioners adopted some of their moves.
So do you think pitting often much smaller and decidedly weaker eastern styled martial artists against bigger stronger street brawlers and wrestlers is a good way for comparing the different styles? pppffft...
I've never practiced any fancy Wushu type stuff BTW. Only Muay Thai and took a bit of boxing and hope to get into some grappling/ground stuff.
Wax in, wax out, grasshopper.
While I don't really like those movies or the martial arts in them, it's actually "Wax on, Wax off."
DannyinJapan,
I hope that with time you will eventually forgive me for derailing your thread.
:footinmou
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2003
- Messages
- 5,594
Its not derailed, just taken the scenic route.
For clarity's sake, let me define martial art in my sense for this thread.
"a set of fighting skills that allow a person to survive an armed conflict"
that may not be perfect, but I think it makes it clear that I am not talking about anything "sport" related or "athletic" or "competitive"
When I say western, I mean European.
When I say European, I mean West of Moscow and North of Turkey.
Lets keep building our "pureblooded " Western Martial Art.
(I am having fun doing this, so I will keep going)
We have Irish Shinkicking, which is basically a throwing/striking art.
We have cornish wrestling, which is more grappling, I guess.
Those two ought to give us some body movement and footwork.
We need a striking school, a tumbling school, a footwork school and a blade and staff school.
There are many European Circus arts schools, so tumbling should be easy.
Ballroom dancing will give us footwork, balance and sensitivity.
So, we need a striking school and a weapons school.
Any suggestions?
For clarity's sake, let me define martial art in my sense for this thread.
"a set of fighting skills that allow a person to survive an armed conflict"
that may not be perfect, but I think it makes it clear that I am not talking about anything "sport" related or "athletic" or "competitive"
When I say western, I mean European.
When I say European, I mean West of Moscow and North of Turkey.
Lets keep building our "pureblooded " Western Martial Art.
(I am having fun doing this, so I will keep going)
We have Irish Shinkicking, which is basically a throwing/striking art.
We have cornish wrestling, which is more grappling, I guess.
Those two ought to give us some body movement and footwork.
We need a striking school, a tumbling school, a footwork school and a blade and staff school.
There are many European Circus arts schools, so tumbling should be easy.
Ballroom dancing will give us footwork, balance and sensitivity.
So, we need a striking school and a weapons school.
Any suggestions?
- Joined
- May 16, 2002
- Messages
- 4,437
Because they suck? Or assume that the reader knows the corresponding footwork?
I can tell you that I know how to fight Sword and shield in medieval euro style (circa 1300's) or viking center boss style (circa 900) and they are used differently than Arab Gatka (Eastern weapon and shield art).
Pmel lists some good WMA writers, but they were writing to an audience who already understood the basics of footwork and positioning, as well as grappling.
I'm no pureblood WMAist, but that is because when I was younger, there were only eastern martial arts available. I don't think that there are any unbroken lineage of fight schools for WMA in America, but Germany and Italy were famous for the fecht maisters (some worked with Geroge Washingon to get the Yanks ready for combat).
Keith
I can tell you that I know how to fight Sword and shield in medieval euro style (circa 1300's) or viking center boss style (circa 900) and they are used differently than Arab Gatka (Eastern weapon and shield art).
Pmel lists some good WMA writers, but they were writing to an audience who already understood the basics of footwork and positioning, as well as grappling.
I'm no pureblood WMAist, but that is because when I was younger, there were only eastern martial arts available. I don't think that there are any unbroken lineage of fight schools for WMA in America, but Germany and Italy were famous for the fecht maisters (some worked with Geroge Washingon to get the Yanks ready for combat).
Keith
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2003
- Messages
- 1,710
For reading:
http://www.hoplology.com/reviews.asp?id=1 (Sydney Anglo's Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe, and Talhoffer is in there as well)
Also the Codex Wallerstein with not only weapons and grappling (including footwork), but also tips on robbing peasants(!)
Now Anglo will point out that the historical record can be maddeningly incomplete.
Were there complete Western European combat systems ("martial arts") with footwork? Of that I have no doubt.
Do current websites show that footwork? Does anyone have the capability to faithfully and totally reconstruct any of the older western fighting systems?I'm not qualified to answer those.
You ask:
Look at your question. If someone googled "ninjutsu" would they find a complete, detailed system on the first website in the list? The third? The fifteenth? Now take into account that ninjas have been in vogue in web-capable countries for a decade or two. WMA most certainly has not. I wouldn't expect a random sample of websites to be authoritative on the topic.
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence (or so people say )
http://www.hoplology.com/reviews.asp?id=1 (Sydney Anglo's Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe, and Talhoffer is in there as well)
Also the Codex Wallerstein with not only weapons and grappling (including footwork), but also tips on robbing peasants(!)
Now Anglo will point out that the historical record can be maddeningly incomplete.
Were there complete Western European combat systems ("martial arts") with footwork? Of that I have no doubt.
Do current websites show that footwork? Does anyone have the capability to faithfully and totally reconstruct any of the older western fighting systems?I'm not qualified to answer those.
You ask:
and
Look at your question. If someone googled "ninjutsu" would they find a complete, detailed system on the first website in the list? The third? The fifteenth? Now take into account that ninjas have been in vogue in web-capable countries for a decade or two. WMA most certainly has not. I wouldn't expect a random sample of websites to be authoritative on the topic.
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence (or so people say
)
- Joined
- May 16, 2002
- Messages
- 4,437
Glima - Icelandic grappling/wrestling
English quarterstaff -- stick fighting
Irish stick fighting (with shilelagh or cudgel)
A related note: The strike-angles diagram for weapons use in the US Special Forces Combatives manual is the same one that appears in Silver, Dei Libri, Talhoffer, Ringneck, and Meyer. Fechtmaster Joachim Meyer's work in 1570 contains much on footwork, and you can see the patterns on the floor used to train the feet.
Keith
English quarterstaff -- stick fighting
Irish stick fighting (with shilelagh or cudgel)
A related note: The strike-angles diagram for weapons use in the US Special Forces Combatives manual is the same one that appears in Silver, Dei Libri, Talhoffer, Ringneck, and Meyer. Fechtmaster Joachim Meyer's work in 1570 contains much on footwork, and you can see the patterns on the floor used to train the feet.
Keith
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2003
- Messages
- 5,594
Im sorry if I messed with anyone's mind.
I never intended anyone to discuss eastern martial arts nor competition nor which is better nor who can do what.
That came from other people.
I was just playing with the idea of a " complete" "western" martial art.
And by the way, continually changing the playing field is one of the secrets of martial arts!
I never intended anyone to discuss eastern martial arts nor competition nor which is better nor who can do what.
That came from other people.
I was just playing with the idea of a " complete" "western" martial art.
And by the way, continually changing the playing field is one of the secrets of martial arts!
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2003
- Messages
- 5,594
The moderators have my permission to kill it if they so desire, but I do believe we came up with some interesting ideas.
We have had martial arts threads before that caused a few bent feathers because there is so much ego involved in that kind of discussion, but there IS something useful that can be gained by scholarly discussion and research.
If we all stay objective, positive and academic, we can discuss it and be productive.
Perhaps we could make a complete, working western martial arts system by combining the following schools:
Irish shinkicking
Cornish Wrestling
Icelandic Grappling
Irish stickfighting
English quarterstaff and longbow
English Boxing
Classical European Fencing
German shortsword
Does anyone else have anything else (positive) to add ?
We have had martial arts threads before that caused a few bent feathers because there is so much ego involved in that kind of discussion, but there IS something useful that can be gained by scholarly discussion and research.
If we all stay objective, positive and academic, we can discuss it and be productive.
Perhaps we could make a complete, working western martial arts system by combining the following schools:
Irish shinkicking
Cornish Wrestling
Icelandic Grappling
Irish stickfighting
English quarterstaff and longbow
English Boxing
Classical European Fencing
German shortsword
Does anyone else have anything else (positive) to add ?