Wharncliffe vs. Quasi-Sheepsfoot (Utility, Not Tactics)

Top one here pictured is the Cold Steel "Frenzy" . Not my favorite name for a knife , but still an excellent design for SD and also useful for utility . :cool::thumbsup::thumbsup:

I'm confused that anyone could handle either of these knives ( or other similar models ) and still doubt that a folder can serve adequately for SD . :confused:

 
DocJD said:
Top one here pictured is the Cold Steel "Frenzy" . Not my favorite name for a knife , but still an excellent design for SD and also useful for utility . :cool::thumbsup::thumbsup:

I'm confused that anyone could handle either of these knives ( or other similar models ) and still doubt that a folder can serve adequately for SD . :confused:
Click to expand...

The biggest issue isn't lock failure, strength, length, etc.

It's time and steps to effective deployment. Real defensive encounters can be quick and chaotic. We often see debates in the gun community over different holster types, speed of draw, manual safeties, etc.; and that's already at the top of the curve for defense. With knives, fixed blades in good sheaths that allow for a full grip on the draw are best. The problem with folders (aside from already starting with a lower-tier defensive tool) is that you are automatically adding a bunch of time, steps, failure points, and even possibilities for self-injury in the process between noticing a threat and having a defensive tool ready for use.

Those steps include getting a sufficient grip to remove it from the pocket, opening it successfully and sufficiently to engage the lock, and then getting a good grip for effective use--plus any hand repositioning that has to take place in between all those steps--all while something crazy might be happening, the adrenaline could be flowing, you might have someone or something on top of you and aggressively trying to harm you, and you might already be hurt or in a compromised position. Good grief, you could be in the middle of dinner and have butter fingers. The point is that nobody knows exactly what kind of defensive encounter will occur until it does so anything we can do to streamline the process for safety and effectiveness is a good thing.
 
Chronovore said:
The biggest issue isn't lock failure, strength, length, etc.

It's time and steps to effective deployment. Real defensive encounters can be quick and chaotic. We often see debates in the gun community over different holster types, speed of draw, manual safeties, etc.; and that's already at the top of the curve for defense. With knives, fixed blades in good sheaths that allow for a full grip on the draw are best. The problem with folders (aside from already starting with a lower-tier defensive tool) is that you are automatically adding a bunch of time, steps, failure points, and even possibilities for self-injury in the process between noticing a threat and having a defensive tool ready for use.

Those steps include getting a sufficient grip to remove it from the pocket, opening it successfully and sufficiently to engage the lock, and then getting a good grip for effective use--plus any hand repositioning that has to take place in between all those steps--all while something crazy might be happening, the adrenaline could be flowing, you might have someone or something on top of you and aggressively trying to harm you, and you might already be hurt or in a compromised position. Good grief, you could be in the middle of dinner and have butter fingers. The point is that nobody knows exactly what kind of defensive encounter will occur until it does so anything we can do to streamline the process for safety and effectiveness is a good thing.
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:) I think this all depends on how you train and practice .

I carry front pocket , wave openers .

I can have the knife out and open as fast as I can raise my hand from my pocket .

I don't have to think about it . It's pure reflex by now .

Nothing is faster ...for ME . (Except maybe a cane or walking stick which is already in hand and up front .)

YMMV . You should use whatever method and gear works for YOU best . :cool::thumbsup:

A major factor for me personally , is that I just don't want to carry a fixed blade and sheath large enough to equal my larger folders . Personal preference for comfort , convenience , and ease of concealment .

I can front pocket carry even an XL Espada with no problem vs an equivalent OAL fixed with sheath . :p:thumbsup:

 
DocJD said:
:) I think this all depends on how you train and practice .

I carry front pocket , wave openers .

I can have the knife out and open as fast as I can raise my hand from my pocket .

I don't have to think about it . It's pure reflex by now .

Nothing is faster ...for ME . (Except maybe a cane or walking stick which is already in hand and up front .)

YMMV . You should use whatever method and gear works for YOU best . :cool::thumbsup:

A major factor for me personally , is that I just don't want to carry a fixed blade and sheath large enough to equal my larger folders . Personal preference for comfort , convenience , and ease of concealment .

I can front pocket carry even an XL Espada with no problem vs an equivalent OAL fixed with sheath . :p:thumbsup:
Click to expand...

The wave might be better and you might be good with it, but is it really faster or more reliable than a fixed blade in a good sheath? There might be less steps than a knife that opens with thumb studs, a flipper tab, etc. but there are still more steps, and more chances at either failure or self-injury, than with a fixed blade in the right sheath. After a lot of assessment, there is a subsection of defensive encounters in which a folder could be very helpful but there are also several where relying on it could have the opposite effect. I've come to the point on this issue that I'd rather see people work on their empty-handed skills than choose a folder for self defense.

One difficulty here is that real hands-on training can be a challenge. For instance, you'd need a dummy version of your wave knife or something comparable enough for testing. You can buy trainer models with a wave function but getting your exact knife could be tough. (You could always make one by grinding the point and edge off of a suitable sacrifice.) Then get a comparable fixed blade trainer in a good sheath and mount it properly. Then practice by having a competent friend, sparring partner, trainer, etc. accost and try to forcibly manhandle you in different ways from different starting positions. See if you run into any difficulties getting the tool out and successfully into action, especially compared with the fixed blade. Be mindful of missing edge contact to either of you while in a scuffle. Obviously, you can only be so surprised or taken off guard in a controlled training environment but it should shed some light on the principle I'm trying to explain here.
 
Let's try reopening this. I have received a few PM's from members requesting an opportunity to contribute to the topic.
 
I'll come out and say that I prefer a straight edge on my wharcliffe over the slight belly of a modified variant. I can make draw cuts at a much lower angle to the material and I find that I simply have more control over the point, and when the time does come to use the rest of the edge, I get more cutting force. It's overall just more utilitarian for my needs and I find very little use for belly in my day to day. I find that with my CRKs I actually prefer the tanto over the insingo because the two edges are much straighter and it's like it gives me the flexibility of two wharncliffes at two different angles.
 
I like blades with a straight edge for long straight cuts. The point on the Wharncliff is, to me, nice because it puts that sharp tip in line with the cutting edge, which can be handy. I find that more useful in the shop than the less "pointy" sheepsfoot. The problem I have with the Lambsfoot/Sheepfoot blades is (on traditionals) they don't really have much belly, and blades with a belly are best for curving or rocking cuts. The blade I like that you don't see much anymore is the old Turkish or California clip, which is a very low profile clip point and is very handy when fishing or hunting birds. The taste for tall clip points on folding knives does nothing for me.

Another virtue of the Wharncliff is that it sits lower in the closed position than does a Sheepsfoot and unless, you're using a single blade knife, this makes for a more comfortable grip. I prefer to carry a traditional "Jack" knife (two blades on the same end) because that way I get the curved and straight edge in one package.
 
I prefer using straight edge for my line of work. The knife on the picture have straight, chisel grind edge with 15 degrees primary angle bevel on the right side.
Most of my working knives are either tanto style or something very close as the only knifes with defined bellies are the Rat1in D2 and Gail Bradley 1, I was extensively using for work.
Much easier to sharpen on the field if I need to and IMO cuts better with very little or no belly.
Carrying folder as a weapon is completely different story and again IMO - nothing beats straight edge and Emerson wave for fast drawing from a pocket.
Fixed blade could be fast if you follow few conditions, otherwise it's not faster than drawing Emerson wave from a pocket ( you must have fob on the knife).

iKbgm6.jpg
 
Good info, fellas. Interesting, and almost a bit surprising, just how many straight edge fans there are making their preference known.

One I bought many years ago is this Benchmade "Stryker" designed by Elishewitz, in M2. ("V" ground version, not the chisel grind.)

Like the poster above mentioned...this affords two straight edges to choose from.

Benchmade2.jpg

And thanks to ferider ferider , I now have this Hinderer "Fatty" (on the right in the image), to enjoy:

hinderer-wharnie-1.jpg
 
Blues said:
Like the poster above mentioned...this affords two straight edges to choose from.
Click to expand...
Actually in this particular case it will be hard to use the edge in the middle for the simple reason, that this blade was strictly designed as a weapon in mind,
the angle at the tip is much sharper in order to assure penetration.
Generally, I roughly divide the so called "Americanized" tantos in two categories - "weapon oriented" and "utility oriented.
This thread very much covers the subjects of few others in this forum, mostly aimed to the tanto blades, so let me clear myself:
When we are talking about straight edges and utility work, naturally the classic shape of the "Americanized" tanto comes to mind.
I personally like it because when used, I can have the sharpness of the tip part of the blade preserved for whatever reason I need it.
You can see below why, few guys already mentioned it:

DZXJi2.jpg


With straight edges of tantos designed as a weapon in mind, this is hard to achieve, they are better suited for penetration, therefore - not much "utility" work:

Ev8XVx.jpg


So I would say, if we strictly concentrate on the blade shape, the knives on the left would have more utilitarian properties,
when the models on the right would be designed mostly for penetration ( weapons).

oviLju.jpg


So, looking at the Striker ( excellent knife btw) it will be more suited for "striking" than for some utility work but of course I could be wrong... :cool:
 
Let's keep defensive / offensive knife use out of this thread...as that is not what was intended for this discussion when I started it...and as a retired LEO, I know firsthand that using a knife for that purpose is way down my list.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program...

...Utility
 
IMG_0459.jpg

Look at the blades of folks who cut for a living; little to no belly (nakiri).
For cutting I think straight works because it keeps the power along the full length of the blade.
What would you call chef's knives? drop? spear?
Belly for boning and filet work.
 
jideta said:
View attachment 1573673

Look at the blades of folks who cut for a living; little to no belly (nakiri).
For cutting I think straight works because it keeps the power along the full length of the blade.
What would you call chef's knives? drop? spear?
Belly for boning and filet work.
Click to expand...

Nice examples .... these are for board cutting, notice the space for the fingers. Free-hand chef knives (mostly smaller, but larger butcher/fillet knives too) have more belly (see my potato gif earlier in this thread.
 
Though we're straying a bit from sheepsfoot and wharncliffe...

...I purchased these knives from Murray Carter years ago when he was still living and making knives in Japan. This gives an idea of the range of knives and blade patterns that Murray suggested as being useful.

(And as Roland so aptly mentions, a cutting board is employed with such knives...which makes a big difference in their usage.)

Muteki.jpg
 
Hey, did you guys know that the broke back wharncliffe is derived from the Seax ? And that the Saxons were named after the Seax ? From Wikipedia: The Saxons (Saxones (Latin), Sachsen (German), Seaxan (Old English), ...) were a group of ... peoples whose name was given in the early Middle Ages to a large country near the ... coast of northern Germania.

Trivia of the day :)
 
jideta said:
View attachment 1573673

Look at the blades of folks who cut for a living; little to no belly (nakiri).
For cutting I think straight works because it keeps the power along the full length of the blade.
What would you call chef's knives? drop? spear?
Belly for boning and filet work.
Click to expand...

Clearly the first two have bellies and they are typical kitchen knife profile. In fact, strictly straight-edge knives do not work well in the kitchen.

Not sure what the third is for but whatever it is for, it is not for cutting on a board in the kitchen.
 
sharp_edge said:
Clearly the first two have bellies and they are typical kitchen knife profile. In fact, strictly straight-edge knives do not work well in the kitchen.

Not sure what the third is for but whatever it is for, it is not for cutting on a board in the kitchen.
Click to expand...

In fact, the first one looks more like a sheep's foot :)
 
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