What’s the point of these metals that hold an edge 3 times longer if it’s 5 times longer to sharpen.

I agree with OP , in that toughness is more important , in some applications, and should not be traded for super ER .

But increased ER is fine with me , if toughness is maintained .

Diamond sharpeners definitely help and are affordable now , so 5X sharpening times aren't necessary anymore IMO .

Unless you really do have to use:( a rock !
 
I would put out that Toughness is more important depending on application. For a blade designed for chopping or that will see significant lateral stress on thed edge, definitely. A "combat" knife (I hate that term BTW), sure, increased toughness is likely to be more useful considering likely impact with hard materials like nails, rocks and such. To be honest, I found more use from my Spyderco folder (ZDP-189, or 440V) than from the "combat knife" I had on deployments.

However, for a blade designed to be used as a slicer, or for tasks like meat processing, cutting line (had to cut plenty of 1 inch nylon rope and mesh tubing on the small boats), and for what I consider normal EDC tasks, higher edge retention is desirable and I am willing to trade ultimate toughness for the edge to maintain a useable apex for longer.

Another example of this is CPM 10V. I love 10V (A11)! wish I could get more of it. 10V has been used for wood working and in professional wood turning tools for decades. I would definitely not consider 10V to be a tough steel, and yes edge geometry plays a significant role here, but a wood chisel is still a relatively acute cutting edge. A wood working tool made from 1084 will work, but require more time maintaining the edge than 10V. I wouldn't want an axe made from 10V, and would prefer a simpler carbon steel for a machete, but that is why there are so many choices out there!
 
I use medium ceramic stones (Spyderco) for all my knives and they work just fine. I like a little coarser edge on s90v, m390, etc.

Higher edge retention on smaller knives and folders, more toughness on larger knives and fixed blades. Works for me.
 
Kotkin said:
Even at 5 times longer I can’t get it as sharp as Nitro V or Magna cut.
I hate M390.
We have advertising and 90 percent videos that says keeping and edge is the most important thing.
We have all these videos of guys cutting rope and timing it till it goes dull but no timing of length of sharpening???
A combat vet who teaches Navy Seals told me he wants ease of sharpening and a steel that won’t break.
He said nothing of edge retention.
Who decided that edge retention is more important than ease of sharpening.
Click to expand...
I haven’t noticed much of a difference between the many knife steels I have when it comes to sharpening. I could be wrong, but it seems if you have the right grits for the job, your time spent won’t be much different. And, while I value multiple knife properties, edge retention is one that I do value. It’s nice knowing my edge will hold up throughout the task at hand. I can sharpen after the fact if the strop isn’t enough.
 
Diamond stones are your friend. When I moved from IL, I had to pack my sharpening gear. It was convenient to have knives in M4 and
ZDP189. I used these knives to cut lots of rope when I tied boxes for moving. The blade in M4 stayed sharp for more than a month of constant daily use. Under more typical circumstances, I am fine with steels like VG10, S30V, S35V, and XHP. The knife in my pocket has a blade made of S30V and it sharpens easily with diamond stones and ceramic stones.
I still use a couple of Gerber kitchen knives in 440C and find one of them harder to sharpen than VG10. The older knives in 420HC don’t see the light of day. They just dull to quickly.
 
Softer steels are good for prying, and I love 1095 type steels for their resilience that way. My day to day I prefer to sharpen in my free time instead of in between each task.
Right tool for the job 😁👍
 
We were having this discussion a long time ago, when S30V appeared and made things even more difficult. I bought a knife in that time with it and then used it in a machine shop for two years, cutting wrap, cardboard, etc. It hit the top of metal carts frequently enough, and never seemed to go dull.

I then spent 2 hours trying to bring back that laser edge it had new on several different sharpening systems, including diamond, and realized what all the fuss was about sending it back to the "spa" for a freshening. Other knifemakers were offering the service then, too, one not too far down in Arkansas, but I didn't want to risk losing it as it was the #3 most I had ever paid for a knife. $230! Used! Almost needless to say I misplaced it for 6 weeks and the agony made me realize I had reached the plateau where losing a knife would hurt.

I still haven't gotten it up to hair popping sharp, I dropped back to the ATS34/CM/D2 steels and find them a good median point for using - will dress out a game animal without major dulling, in EDC keep an edge for 6 mos or so. Maybe next year Ozark Trails will offer a clone in Magnacut, until then I'm not too eager to get back into the leading edge of alloys. I found my comfort zone.
 
Kotkin said:
Even at 5 times longer I can’t get it as sharp as Nitro V or Magna cut.
I hate M390.
We have advertising and 90 percent videos that says keeping and edge is the most important thing.
We have all these videos of guys cutting rope and timing it till it goes dull but no timing of length of sharpening???
A combat vet who teaches Navy Seals told me he wants ease of sharpening and a steel that won’t break.
He said nothing of edge retention.
Who decided that edge retention is more important than ease of sharpening.
Click to expand...

Sharp good, not sharp bad. :)
 
Kotkin said:
Even at 5 times longer I can’t get it as sharp as Nitro V or Magna cut.
I hate M390...

Who decided that edge retention is more important than ease of sharpening.
Click to expand...


CPM Rex121
3.40% Carbon
10.00% Tungsten
9.50% Vanadium
9.00% Cobalt
5.00% Molybdenum
4.00% Chromium



ik6Bi6K.png

70 HRC
fmr1ABO.png

25g BESS, as sharp as a feather double edge razor.

cy0K7x6.jpeg


It's not the steel.
 
HwangJino said:
I've been saying this for a while.

99.9% of us couldn't tell which steel a knife is in a blind test.
Click to expand...
Well, until that edge goes as smooth as a babies bottom with light use versus continuing the cut without the edge slipping.

Or when you're beating your head against the wall using ceramic which is not shaping the MC carbides.

Or when the steel starts reacting when cutting things with different acidity or even reacting with hand oils and sweat.

Or when you notice that one material has a higher elastic limit at the edge and another material has more edge plasticity which happens sooner with less force when pushing to failure.

Otherwise yeah, can't tell the difference.
 
Some folks just have to be "early adopters" or otherwise compelled to have the latest wiz-bang in whatever it is.

Fine knives from premium makers can easily be found that are made with more traditional steels. . . .even carbon steels.
 
navman said:
If you are attempting to use older wet stones, such as Arkansas stone, yeah it will take you longer and the edge will not be what you want.
Click to expand...
Ha, ha
I'll say ! ! !
I have photos I posted a decade ago where the high alloy tool steel blade literally polished a $200 white hard Arkansas stone of the very best quality.
Before starting the stone had been properly conditioned and had a flat / mat ( non reflective ) surface that cut and refined plain "high carbon" steel just fine.

After some few dozen passes with some . . . gosh I swear it was just A2 (not so " high alloy after all" but I may be wrong about that. . . the stone held no black swarf in the pores , under high magnification with a hand held little microscope, and when I stood back and looked at the stone in low angle light I could easily see the light reflect off the stone.

I still love that stone, it is a prize possession, and I cast no desperation on hard Arkansas stones.

PS: The edge was already sharp , sharpened on a progression of Norton water stones 220 through 4000. I was attempting to give the blade a little extra polish little realizing where the polish was going to end up .
 
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I've never understood the "BuT U CAn SHARpeN onNa ROCK" school of knifemaking.

The purpose of steels that hold a working edge three times longer but take five times longer to sharpen is really straightforward. You have a usable knife for much longer, and maintaining an edge is always a very tiny proportion of the amount of time you spend with a knife. Maybe it only took me five minutes to sharpen a simple carbon steel knife and it takes me 25 minutes to sharpen a CPM high-alloy stainless (debatable, because diamond stones will cut both handily). But the carbon steel edge lasts for a lot less time, and so I end up resharpening it anyway while the more advanced steel is still cutting. With hunting you can see softer, simpler steels noticeably dull while dressing the same large animal when more advanced steels stay sharp. So sure, you can resharpen an A2 blade at RC58 faster than the S35VN one, but maybe the guy with the S35VN skinner is finishing up dressing his deer while you're sharpening, on account he never needed to sharpen it again before the job was done.

There's also no real advantage to the re-sharpenability argument. If you can carry a coffee mug or a river rock or an Arkansas stone to resharpen your Randall or your Emerson, you could have carried a pocket diamond stone in literally the same amount of space.
 
Wowbagger said:
Ha, ha
I'll say ! ! !
I have photos I posted a decade ago where the high alloy tool steel blade literally polished a $200 white hard Arkansas stone of the very best quality.
Before starting the stone had been properly conditioned and had a flat / mat ( non reflective ) surface that cut and refined plain "high carbon" steel just fine.

After some few dozen passes with some . . . gosh I swear it was just A2 (not so " high alloy after all" but I may be wrong about that. . . the stone held no black swarf in the pores , under high magnification with a hand held little microscope, and when I stood back and looked at the stone in low angle light I could easily see the light reflect off the stone.

I still love that stone, it is a prize possession, and I cast no desperation on hard Arkansas stones.

PS: The edge was already sharp , sharpened on a progression of Norton water stones 220 through 4000. I was attempting to give the blade a little extra polish little realizing where the polish was going to end up .
Click to expand...
A2 would do it. A2 contains chromium carbides. Chromium carbides are harder than an Arkansas stone (Washita stone).

Rule of thumb: If you want something to cut something else, then the thing doing the cutting needs to be harder than the thing being cut.

IMO, that also applies to sharpening stones vs. blade steel. The sharpening media needs to be harder than what is being sharpened. Most high performance alloys today contain chunks of vanadium carbide. Vanadium carbide is harder than Washita stone and it is harder than aluminum oxide. To get a good sharpening such that the crystals are being cleanly cleaved takes something harder than the vanadium carbide. You can sharpen the blade with aluminum oxide, but you will be crushing the carbides instead of cleanly cleaving them. So it takes longer and your results are imperfect.
 
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