what about copycats?

Originally posted by shgeo
This is a bunch of BS. Everybody's design copies someone, somewhere. If you look at historical knives, the Green River Dadist style was a drop point hunter-are any of you critics calling Loveless a copycat? Is every bowie maker to be criticized for stealing someone's style?

Maybe you holier than thou types can show some of your original designs that don't look like anything anyone else ever made. It doesn't take much knowledge to make cheap shots at anothers work. Put up or shut up, how about it?
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Ah, the old "there's nothing new under the sun" arguement. Hogwash, there are lots of original knives. These knives will borrow design cues from others that's true, but they won't be direct copies.

There are lots of original looking knives out there. Take a look at the knives of Ray Appleton. You won't mistake them for anyone elses. Nor will you mistake the Sliver from Tim Herman for any other knife. It only takes imagination to come up with an original looking knife. Just because it has a drop point or a coffin handle doesn't mean that the whole the desin has been copied from someone else.

By the way, the Green River knife doesn't look the least bit like a Loveless drop point other than the fact that they both have a handle and a blade. The bowie knife is a style, like a trapper or a dagger and there are as many different looking bowies as there are people making them.
 
Knifemakers have been posting pictures of their knives here since the forum existed. If that isn't "put up or shut up", I quess I don't know what is. When someone gets called out, and many others step up to re-enforce that, there is obviously an issue. If that weren't the case, no one would post pictures of their work for fear of some sort of witch hunt, but that obviously doesn't happen, does it?
 
I have to agree with Keith and Dogman,You are in some very good company on these boards,so there are alot of makers posting pictures of there work and there is no shortage of talent here
Coming up with somthing that is yours is harder than making the knife.I got caught up in haveing a heavy feel from another maker
but there is a differnce.I was called on it and the point was taken
very well,lesson learned.I have drew up about 50 differnt knives but out off all the drawings I have about 10 I will call my own
Like Keith said,it can be done but takes hard work and alot of setting back and thinking.I can't say the lumps I got felt good,but
it taught me a lesson,you get more respect when you come up with somthing of your own
Regards Nathan
:)
 
Nathan, there is no denying your talent. It is tough to find your niche. My first knives were from patterns given to me by Michael J. Smith, who taught me how to make knives. Reese Weiland and I constantly share ideas and designs, but you would never mistake one of his for one of mine. Hell, Reese, Kenny Davis and I all took the same pattern and did our own thing with it. Ricardo Velarde gave me about 20 patterns to play with when I first started; I still use some of them. I've already mentioned Steve Johnson and Bob Loveless.

The key is interpretation. You have to put your own vision and heart into the knives you make, even if they are inspired by someone else. Neil credits Siska and Brend for his inspiration, but you would never mistake a Blackwood for a Siska or Brend. Having a talent with equipment and your hands are meaningless if the first comment out of someone's mouth is "Hey, that looks like so-and-so's knife". I would quit making knives if all I wanted to do was make SRJ clones.
 
Dogman
I undestand were everyone was coming from and there was a leasson
to be learn,Neil has inspired me, there probably will alwas be some blackwood in me.But my knives will be differnt,Siska learned Brends grinding style but you can tell there knives apart,I see what you are saying,there is always a platform that another maker has made
but there is a differnce in there work.I have been humbled by this
and I guess it was good for me,You guys put me on the path that will lead me to what I can call mine.
Nathan
 
I think Nathan has taken this hard lesson better than I would have. Would have crawled in a hole and not made another knife. He has shown allot of maturity with this board of fellow makers.

I too had trouble finding my own style. It was Loveless drop points for me but I could no way make them as well as Bob. I still make full tang knives but have finally broke free from his look. I was frustrated enough to write to Wayne Goddard about it. He used my question in Blade Magazine and gave me the answer I needed. This topic is one each of us faces and needs to deal with. It is not easy to dive into a lake of established makers without making some waves.
BTW that article is in the book: The Wonder Of Knifemaking by Wayne Goddard. He said my style will evolve on its own given time.

Keep up the good work Nathan. You have made it into "The Lake"
 
There is nothing wrong with taking some things that you like from the designs of others. In fact, even if not intentional, you are going to find that every aspect of a knife's design will have been used by someone else before you. This is where "There is nothing new under the sun." really does apply. It the ability of a maker to use all the design elements that have been used by others, to put them together and come up with a design that looks fresh that will set this maker apart from others.
 
Thanks Bruce
I love to make knives,but this lesson has made me mature
like you said,I am sure I will look back at this and see how it
has made me grow,I may have missed somthing special,I may not have
dug into myslef and really come up with some stuff that will set me apart as a maker,and that is the whole magic of knife makeing
making designs and then bringing them to life,and then you can set back and look at your work and know that it came from you.
Nathan
 
Very good Nathan... If you had this attitude before, it would have saved you lots of headache's... Looks like you have seen the light, instead of the Black for a change..;)
Good luck to you developing your own style..
 
I told you he would come thru! Good Luck Nathan.. Email sent regarding what I sent you earlier.

S/F,
CEYA!__-Ceya Knife Designz
 
Sorry, meant to sa this earlier, but forgot.

That's definitely a cool design, and a Nathan original there, but I sure as heck am glad I do'nt have to grind it. That recurve there looks like ti'd be a bear to grind. Least for me. :)
 
Hey, James Black and the Bowie Brothers just called me (frm their graves) and they stated that they want back royalties from all you guys for coppying their clip point bowie design. :eek:

Oh and Sanjo Munechika and Namihira Yukimasa also want back royalties for all the Japanese Tanto's you guys have made. :eek:

For that matter, the Aztecs and Mayan cultures owe the Egyptians Royalties for copying the pyramids. Or could it be that they came up with the same or similar ideas without influencing each other?

How long has the knife been around?:cool:
 
demon_e0.gif
 
Sorry Nathan,

That drawing is too close to my "Knutsack Skinner" The only differance between your drawing and my design is ....Blade shape, bolsters, handle layout,pin placement, materials choice etc. etc. So dont make it:D

Mark

where's that dead horse button
 
who's copying who.

you guys kill me :)
I sold my first knife in 1974

I think I see some copies of mine on these forums:eek: :D

I'll want to see some checks in the mail very soon..:D :D

to be introduced into the knife world there is a lot to learn
business wise, ethic wise, ecct you just don't know it all until you are told or see it and then you'll miss something that will bite you......
so be easy, because you just may get whacked some day in something
you don't know yourself...

Bruce you're right Nathan took it on the chin like a man..
I haven't seen two pictures to compare the knives and I'd like too though.
but as said some don't mind being copied, some get their thong twisted up.
right or wrong
there are some guys that are looked up to, to the point that they just love that blade and
want to be as good or better than that maker. he's a mentor to the guy. I'd be pleased myself..just don't put my name on it.
Nathan had come a very long way sense I first talked to him some two years ago when he started.
he means well...
maybe a knife ethics code should be drawn up for new guys that just don't know,, you think?
but who's going to do it, and in a way
to please everyone? just my two cents here and about what it's worth....go ahead wack me guys:cool:
 
Bwahahahaha! "Nutsack Skinner"! LOL

:D Thanks; thanks a lot. You owe me a new keyboard. I just spit coffee all over mine.
 
The knives in question were unmistakable, and NOBODY was looking for royalties...If they werent so similar nobody would have said a word to Nathan.
Mr. Graymaker I was 4 years old when you started making knives, but I have never seen anything you make, or ever heard of you.. If by chance I have something that looks similar to your designs I would be more than happy to give you credit for design influence, if I had actually used you as an influence. THAT is all this mess was about.
It looks like the problem is resolved, and nothing more needs to be said.. At least thats the way I see it... The horse it would seem is dead.:rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by Trace Rinaldi
Mr. Graymaker I was 4 years old when you started making knives, but I have never seen anything you make, or ever heard of you..
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my web site is available for all to see.
maybe you should get out more Trace:) just pulling your leg:)

Trace
Call me Dan
Maine is the wrong end of the country to get well know
unless you want to do a lot of traveling for shows.
The internet has been good to me to take place of the shows I should have been at.
so I haven't done the traveling to achieve stardom, so sort-O speak
I got the cart before the horse but it's been good for me
but in turn I can't command the price that I should
and now that I can turn my attention to more knives than anything else
that will change..
if that answers your question I think you kind of eluded too.
we can go into my back ground if you'd like.

I haven't seen The knife that was in question, I have seen Nathan's.
throw me a link to the one in question if you would Trace....

personally I don't care, as I say, if someone copies a design I make
or have made. if there is a big problem with this, that's what
copy right law and such is for, But
I believe you can't
copy right a design like that anyway ( at least not worth doing) you just have to change it slightly
and the money spent is wasted,
then your left with,, relying on the ethics of the makers now.

no, the problem is not resolved, it's happening all the time and will go on either
for financial gain or by a new makers lack of knowing..it's an on going
fact of life..enough said by me....I'll let this one die..
a have great one
 
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