what about TOPS?

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elkhoundss

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Anybody have experience with TOPS fixed-blades? Are they really worth the price? Ka-Bar uses the same steel and are a lot cheaper, so what's the difference? And we know there are other quality fixed-blades out there that are almost half as much. I'm just looking for a little perspective from those that are more knowledgable than me.
 
Certain Tops models are expensive but they do have lower priced models. They are more of a semi-production than an outright production blade. All of the Tops that I have handled have been very well made. You should try to handle some Tops knives in person just to satisfy your curiosity. You might be surprised.
 
TOPS makes some great blades. True, they are expensive... but you can expect one to last you a projected lifetime through tough use. The people behind the edge are fine, if not better than what they produce, and make an effort to do things right (before and after your purchase). Of course, it depends on what you want in a knife too. I find TOPS sturdily built, well made, and tough as hell. There are worse knives, and better ones... but you will pay accordingly. I had an Anaconda, have a cheetah and Street Scalpel (crowbar with an edge), and played with numerous others. Only been dissappointed in one or two models that I just didnt like personally. Somewhere around here (or maybe the Hoods? Anyone know??), there is a story of a guy prying open a door in a bar, and killing a wounded deer with his CQC folder, no damage to the moveables or blade! NW
 
The legendary stories referred to were about our super hero, Brian "Indiana" Jones! And the stories are cooler when you mention that a stranded chick was behind that locked door that needed prying!

As far as TOPS blades go, you get real users behind the blades designing them. Also, I think that there is more hadn work done on TOPS blades than other blades, hence the price too.
 
The CQT Magnum folders are really tough, and so is the Thunderhawke.

Fit & finish are top quality on every TOPS folder I have owned or handled.

The customer service is also first rate, from what I have experienced in dealing with them twice now.

The advertising though, that's another story. I really think it reflects poorly on TOPS...They have some of the most silly ads I have ever seen..
 
There is much more to a knife then just the materials used in construction. You could say the same about Newt Livesay's knives. They are just plain old 1095 fixed blades aren't they?

All you have to do is use one to appreciate the differences. Edge holding, ease of sharpening, stain resistance (rust), strength to lateral forces and edge impacts against metal or rocks, heat treat, handle comfort, etc. all play vital roles to differentiate one knife or knife company from another.

With regards to cost, you do get to a point of diminshing returns. Will a well built custom knife out perform a factory knife? Certainly. By how much? 10%? 50%?

When you look at mass produced factory knives, you get an almost one to one relationship where every dollar spent buys a a fixed percentage of increased performance. At what price point do you get less improvement for that same dollar increase in price? In fixed blades, I find that up to about $150 you get that one to one relationship for price vs. performance. At about $300 you hit the next pricepoint where the price vs. performance ratio falls.

Ka-Bar makes a good serviceable knife but, I would want a knife that is more comfortable during use with a better blade shape and edge geometry for my personal needs. Have you considered Ontario? Becker knives and tools? Are you specifically looking for a 1095 knife? How about some the factory knives that are now using D-2? I could go on but, I think you get the point of this post.
 
Sid,
I understand about the differences in heat treatment and handle configuration that would improve a knife made out of 1095 (TOPS and Livesay)but how do you figure the differences with 1095 in rust resistance, edge holding and ease of sharpening? Sure the flat grind on one of Newt's knives will hold an edge better than a hollow grind of a production knife because of the configuration of the grind but not the steel. Lateral force has more to do with blade thickness and heat treatment than the steel, right?

Or am I off base here somehow.

Thanks Sid.
 
I think of it more as an issue of quality control. I haven't abused similar enough 1095 knives to speak from personal experience with regards to rust resistance and strength in general but, I have with ATS-34.

A knife made exactly the same (blade thickness, length, grind, etc.) heat treated to the same RC number can exhibit better or worse performance due to the grain structure present after the heat treat. I have had mass produced ATS-34 folders from two manufacturers that were victims of a correct RC value (as best I can tell) but, poor quality control heat treats. In one case, I had a Benchmade that rusted (stained significantly but, no pits) in my pocket after a day of heavy sweating. The neck knife I carried the same day did not stain. This knife had a brittle edge as well so, I assume it was heat treated too quickly resulting in a large grain structure that allowed more microscopic space for sweat the cling to even though it was a polished blade. The relative brittleness of the blade re-enforced this belief in a bad heat treat. In the second knife, again a mass produced ATS-34 blade, the blade shows minor chips during sharpening that cannot be sharpened out due to the fact that removing one releases another in the cutting edge somewhere else. Again, I suspect a bad heat treat.

I have several custom ATS-34 blades that show none of these weaknesses. I also have several other production ATS-34 knives that don't show these defects, including other knives from the same manufacturer.

I attribute most of these differences not to the actual RC value but, the underlying grain structure created during the heat treat. If you control grain growth during the heat treat, you will get a knife that, at the same RC value, will be much tighter which helps inhibit staining. I attribute this to a "smoother" surface at the microscopic level that holds less sweat, salt, etc. The smaller grain structure is more forgiving of force whether lateral along the knife or a hard impact into the cutting edge.

The TOPS and Newt Livesay knives I have used are different enough that I am not comfortable doing a direct comparison of them other then to say both have a great heat treat. It was Newt Livesay's knife that gave me a new found respect for 1095. The knife is extremely comfortable to use, holds an edge extremely well, is easy to touch up after a lot of use with ordinary sharpening tools and, forgiving of impacts with hard things (rocks, nails, etc.). The TOPS knife has these same attributes but, its thicker profile from the spine to cutting edge, give it a totally different application and feel.

The Quality Control during Heat Treat is the key. How many people have complained about CPM steels in production knives but, love them in customs? How much of this is attributable to the Heat Treat quality control? Comparing knives that do not have the same edge geometery's and blade profiles would not be a fair comparison of relative strengths but, if one has a good heat treat and the other does not, you will notice the difference if you use them hard whther 1095 or ATS-34.
 
I am a fan of Newt Livesay's knives. That is my bias. I like the shapes better and find the handles more comfortable than that of TOPS.Having said that, all of the TOPS knives that I have seen are of very good fit & finish. The people making them seem like nice folks. I just find the shapes of a number of their designs inefficient and uncomfortable for my hands.
 
Brian's adventures sold me on a Magnum CQT-747 - and I love it. I haven't been able to have as much fun with this knife as he has. I also have a fixed blade Stormrider which is unbelievably strong (1/4'" thick blade). Of course, it doesn't slice tomatoes as thinly as a Ginsu blade, but that's not what it was designed for. I could cut a roof off a car with this knife, if I had to.
 
Brian,

when telling stories of rescuing damsels in distress, it is alright to leave out a few details! As long as you get the knife details correct, we won't mind of you embellish the stories a bit :)

So, Cindy Crawford and Naomi Campbell were kidnapped from their lingerie party and tied together high up in a tower. Brian was strolling by in the area, armed with his wits and a TOPS CQT-747...

:)
 
I AM A SALES REP FOR TOPS SO I AM CERTAINLY BIASED TOWARD THEIR KNIVES, BUT IF YOU HAVE NEVER HANDLED A TOPS KNIFE, I WOULD ENCOURAGE YOU TO DO SO. THEIR HANDLE ERGONOMICS ARE EXCELLENT. THEIR BTC COATING IS SUPERIOR TO MOST OTHERS. THEIR WARRANTY IS BETTER. THEY HAVE GREAT DESIGNS. THEY ARE VERY FIELD USE FRIENDLY, EXTREMELY STRONG AND UTILE, AND ARE MEANT TO BE USED. I HAVE FOURTEEN PRODUCTION PIECES I USE AS SAMPLES AND PEOPLE CAN'T KEEP THEIR HANDS OFF OF THEM. IF YOU WISH TO CONTACT ME PLEASE DO SO.
 
Originally posted by pythonrms
THEIR HANDLE ERGONOMICS ARE EXCELLENT. THEIR BTC COATING IS SUPERIOR TO MOST OTHERS. THEIR WARRANTY IS BETTER.
Click to expand...

I beg to differ on these points. Especially the Warranty(more on this later)

The handle Ergonomics are subjective, however, the ones I've handled have sharp edges, corners on the handle that don't seem the best for hard use knives.

The warranty is where I really have trouble with TOPS
This is from their website http://www.topsknives.com/warranty/warranty.html
"Are guaranteed to be free from defects in materials and workmanship for the lifetime of the original purchaser. Fixed blade sheaths are guaranteed to be free from defects in materials and workmanship for a period of two years from the date of original purchase. This warranty becomes null and void if the knife is abused. Knives are high quality tools and as such are able to withstand rugged field use and conditions. However, it is incumbent upon the owner to ensure that the knife is kept free of contaminants or corrosive substances and that the use of the knife is restricted to prudent and applicable functions. Any misuse of this knife other than to fulfill normal "knife-like" functions will result in voiding of this warranty. The Company reserves the right to make the final decision as to what is considered "fair use" or abuse." "

The Company has the final decision what is fair use. Give me a break, you expect me to trust this knife, yet you won't trust me to make the decision if it was abused or not. This is not what a manufacturer who claims to have tough use knives should worry about. If their knives are truly for tough use, then make them to be used and sometimes use, means abuse. How many tools do I need to carry to the field, I prefer to carry a good knife that I can depend on. One that if I have to use it to pry, accidentally hit rock while chopping or use it in a manner it wasn't intended for it's not going to explode in my hands.
Beyond that I don't want a knife that I have to baby for fear of breaking while in the field, hiking, camping etc. I want one I know I can abuse and it will hold up.

You state their warranty is better, you might want to qualify what it is better than. It's not better than most hard use knife company warranties.
 
I must agree with Eric. That warranty sounds weak--sounds like it is designed to balance power in favor of the company in issues of warranty dispute, sounds like it is designed to be able to serve as a loophole for the company to weasel out of warranty obligations, and--most importantly--sounds like the company doesn't have faith in their own products to withstand customer's needs and expectations.

Perhaps the warranty wasn't made that way intentionally: Well, here's the chance to rewrite the warranty the way it ought to be. At least remove this thorny clause--"The Company reserves the right to make the final decision as to what is considered "fair use" or abuse"--and specifically define what constitutes use or abuse, so that TOPS customers can know what to expect when they decide whether to buy, know what they are allowed to do, and know what they better avoid doing with their knives.

Until then, I feel like I can't trust a knife that even the manufacturer doesn't seem to trust. Why would I buy a high-end knife like that when I can think of companies that offer true unconditional life-time warranties?
 
Originally posted by Eric Isaacson


I beg to differ on these points. Especially the Warranty(more on this later)
Click to expand...

Regardless of what the stated policy is I have known Mike Fuller for a long time. I have also known a lot of folks that use his blades, and even abuse his blade. As of this date I have yet to meet any person that has ever had a complaint about their warranty or service work. You won't meet a more honorable man in the knife industry than Mike Fuller. True, there's a lot of their designs I don't like but I know the man stands behind his product. That's just my experience from dealing with a LOT of users in this industry.

Jeff
 
Jeff Randall said:

"...You won't meet a more honorable man in the knife industry than Mike Fuller... I know the man stands behind his product."

I'm not casting aspersions on a person and company that I'm not even familiar with. For all I know, the products, company, and man behind them are top-notch. But the warranty still speaks to the contrary, placing the power of arbitrary warranty refusal in the hands of the company. If his intentions are better than the warranty, he needs to rewrite his warranty. The current warranty is worthless, and that devalues the knives he makes.

"Regardless of what the stated policy..."

I think not. The stated policy is what is legally binding, and I must assume that he stated it because it is what he intended. I don't know the man, I can't read his mind to fathom his intentions, and--though I like to give the benefit of the doubt to the people I interact with--I'm not willing to gamble substantial chunks of my money on it. I'm not willing to disregard his stated policy, but if it truly differs from what he means, then I will remain open-minded to trusting his products when he rewrites his warranty in a trustworthy manner.
 
Then don't buy one. No worries. Me, Ill trust in the integrity everyone else (including I) knows lies in TOPS.
 
Guys ALWAYS have to bitch about the knife warranty. How many other warranties on other products do you bitch about? What about hight ticket items like construction work done on the house? Cars, guns. etc...
 
I would also say be careful of some shops who offer "unconditional lifetime" warranties. I know of a few shops who offer this and the customers who broke blades are still waiting for their knives to be replaced. The shop owners haven't refused to honor the warranty, they just haven't said WHEN and HOW LONG it will take to honor it. If I were someone worried about the TOPS warranty then I would give Mike Fuller a call and talk with him before I bought a knife. After talking to him your mind would be at ease. Integrity will always win out over written words in a contract when you're dealing with folks like Mike Fuller. I think a lot of these warranties are written for idiots - folks who buy a blade then see if they can break it, then get pissed when the manufacturer won't replace it. Again, I have yet to hear the first warranty complaint about TOPS...and they have tons of knives in the market. I can't say that about some other makers though.
 
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