what about TOPS?

[Eric Isaacson]

Originally posted by Newt Livesay

A post from above is that we the manufactures should let the customers make all the decisions on warranties? Would that policy be the same with the auto industry?

Newt,
You are referencing one of my posts and there is a manufacturer out there that will let you write your own warranty, Swamp Rat Knife Works www.swamprat.com, and specifically the warranty here http://www.swampratknifeworks.com/guarantee.html

Your comparison to the auto industry is laughable as you are comparing a simple tool( a knife) to a complex machine(an auto)

Compare the knife to another simple tool like a hammer or screwdriver and check out the warranties those companies offer. Specifically Craftsman.


"Eric, if you will email me your address I will mail you a TOPS knife to beat the hell out of and play around with. It will cost you nothing but a few minutes of your time to send me an email. You can keep it for your own collection since I have a bunch of them. I don't work for TOPS and I make no money from TOPS but I would like for you to realize they're a great company to deal with.

If you break it I won't warranty it though

Jeff,
Thank you for the offer but it isn't neccessary, however, if you are interested I'll send you a Busse or Swamp Rat knife (no cost) and if you break it I will warranty it.

Here's the difference, first off, it is doubtful you can break it, secondly even if you do the Company will replace it.

I've never doubted what you say about Mike Fuller, I question why he is so afraid to write a warranty that protects his users butt(the consumer). Instead he writes one than protects his own butt.

 

Do whatever you wish sir. Busse Knives, Tactical Knives magazine, or anyone else has nothing to do with what I'm typing here. Further, I refuse to be bound by anyone saying I have to be some way in order for them to patronize a magazine or anyone else I'm associated with. I am nothing but a writer for the magazine. So I guess what I'm politely trying to tell you here is if you don't like what you see then quit reading the thread, or complain to the owners, moderators, or whoever. If you wish to quit reading the magazine then that's your choice also. If you wish to complain to the magazine then that's your choice. I could care less what you do, especially when you place conditions on me, in order for you to "patronize" my associations. I don't play those childish games. Those that know me also know that the last thing you do is place a condition on me. I'll live in a cardboard box under the interstate before that happens.

It always seems like when you're a writer or some other "known" personality you are expected to be something other than human. Sorry I bursted your bubble. Cliff Stamp is an idiot, plain and simple. His rantings are not back up by extended field testing and his accusations such as the one on the Anaconda were simple heresay. If you choose to follow that path then so be it. No matter what I say or do changes that fact. No matter what you say or do will change my feelings towards Cliff. I am what I am and refuse to be politically correct for you or anyone else.

BTW: Busse does make a great knife.

 

[contender]

Based upon that comment Jeff, other than being guilty of poor manners and bad taste, at least you haven't lost your mind !

 

Originally posted by Eric Isaacson


Jeff,
Thank you for the offer but it isn't neccessary, however, if you are interested I'll send you a Busse or Swamp Rat knife (no cost) and if you break it I will warranty it.

No where in this post have I doubted the quality or warranty of a Busse or Swamp Rat knife. Everything I have seen from them has been excellent. I think some folks have taken it that way though.

 

Originally posted by contender
Based upon that comment Jeff, other than being guilty of poor manners and bad taste, at least you haven't lost your mind !

You see...I'm not all that bad. I just don't like Cliff Stamp and the way he always puts a scientific spin on things when he's not basing his testing on extended field use. All I'm saying is he is a real idiot when it comes to actually using knives in a extended wilderness environment. His scientific methods don't cut it in the real world of actually living on edges. He ought to be designing knives for royalty or something.

I've been a member of this forum for a long time. I have watched Cliff's bullshit over and over. A large group of makers were discussing Cliff at Blade and EVERY one of them that were in that particular crowd was fed up with his bullshit. He's a damn joke when it comes to many in the industry and a lot of them feel they can't say what's on their mind for fear of being polticially incorrect on the forums. Well, I may get banned but I'm tired of Cliff putting out bad information when it comes to my expertise in the wilderness arena.

As a side note you would be overwhelmed at the number of emails I have received since this started. ALL of them have been positive telling me to keep telling it like it is.

Don't worry, we leave for Peru next Thursday so Cliffy will have some breathing room while we're in the jungle

 

[Andrew Lynch]

Here are my feelings on TOPS (off the top of my head):



Pros:

Decent Steel

Though not near as good as some other steels, it is a decent choice, and it atleast is not stainless. I hear they have a good heat treat, though have also heard of some cases that make me feel I would want a little more toughness.

Great Handle Material

I must say, I like micarta a lot, and TOPS uses it almost exclusively. I also like the finish they put on it (grippy, but I don't think it would give me blisters).



Cons:

Traction Grooves

All the TOPS knives (atleast the large ones) that I have seen have what TOPS calls traction grooves. Basically, they are groups of quite sharp grooves that extend slightly above (on the ones I've seen) the handle material. They are from the tang. They are HIGHLY abrasive, and I have no doubt they would damage my hand (large blistering, perhaps ripped skin) severly under heavy use over quite a short period of time (30 minutes perhaps). They only way I would ever use a large TOPS knife for hard use (their intended purpose) would be with gloves, which are not to my liking.

Designs

Most of the TOPS designs are far from my liking. TOPS grinds are usually very thick, both primary and edge grinds. This reduces chopping and cutting performance greatly. I also dislike tantos for my uses, and TOPS uses them extensively, although drop points are becoming more available. I also dislike most of the saw tooth spines, and weird sharp protusions from the spines of many of their knives.

Warranty

If I broke a TOPS knife doing something quite unabusive, I would expect even the TOPS warranty to cover it. Even if it went beyond the warranty, I would not be surprised if it were covered because the person with power knew that the failure shouldn't have happened. However, I feel that a failure doing something very unabusive is unlikely (it would have to be an error in manufacture, heat treat, et cetera I think) I feel that if I broke a TOPS knife, it would probably be doing something almost universally deemed abusive. Why would I do it? Perhaps I had to, perhaps it was an accident, perhaps it saved me time and effort. For example, perhaps I was chopping with extremely powerful strokes and made full contact with a sharp, hard rock. Let's say the blade broke or atleast severly chipped out at the point of impact due to the amazing force of the blow and the concentration of the blow on one tiny part of the blade. Would TOPS cover that? After all, it's my fault, admittedly by accident, but my fault. Also, it put the blade under a huge amount of stress, an abusive level of stress, to a point where failure is almost expected. I would not expect TOPS to cover me in that and other highly abusive situations. If they did, I would be surprised. Other companies offer warranties that cover ANYTHING short of intentional damage. I am covered no matter what. I value that coverage.


When I look for a hard-use knife (or most any knife for that matter), I look for many things. These include cohesion of design (design features all tartegeted towards one intended purpose or small group of purposes-the purpose(s) I'm looking to fill), ergonomics (although ergonomics are highly subjective, I watch out for obvious pitfalls such as, for me, traction grooves), performance, and warranty.

In the $150 range, there are better knives for my uses (camp and survival chores, general utility), IMHO. For example, Swamp Rat Knives ( www.swamprat.com ) offer the Battle Rat which is superfluous to all the TOPS knives I've seen in its size range in almost every way.

I know everyone has their own uses, ergonomic preferences, favorite brands and styles, but I go almost totally by how a knife performs. This has lead me to a few companies that I follow most closely.

 

[Eric Isaacson]

Originally posted by JeffRandall

A large group of makers were discussing Cliff at Blade and EVERY one of them that were in that particular crowd was fed up with his bullshit. He's a damn joke when it comes to many in the industry and a lot of them feel they can't say what's on their mind for fear of being polticially incorrect on the forums.


As a side note you would be overwhelmed at the number of emails I have received since this started. ALL of them have been positive telling me to keep telling it like it is.

Obviously not the same group of people I associate with because they all liked Cliff's Reviews


And I've also received the emails supporting my position.


It appears we are deadlocked

 

That's cool but I never really considered you a combatant in this thread

 

[MikePerrin]

Insurance policies are where I worry about 'fine print' and take the trouble to read them. Warranties, particularly on knives, go in the sh*tcan unread. I've met and talked with or dealt with a good many knife makers and companies and I'd be hard pressed to name one that wouldn't replace a blade or set things right if I was dissatisfied. In some cases, like Mike Fuller and TOPS, I know them personnaly and respect the hell out of them. I've seen Mike replace knives he didn't have to simply because of his integrity. Most makers and companies will make it right despite what their warranty says simply because it would be very bad PR not to. If one dissatisfied customer posted his sour experience on Bladeforums for instance it would be much harder to deal with than just replacing the blade to start with.

I also realize that most warranties are written by absentee partners, boards of directors and various other 'behind the scenes' personnal who never deal directly with the public or don't know jacksh*t about knives. That's why the only thing I consider is how the guy who DOES deal with the public deals with replacing a broken or defective product. To date I have never been burnt using this philosophy. If it ever happens then that guy will only get me once. I won't deal with him again. So ya'll can take warranties and shove em! Mike

 

[tallwingedgoat]

Yikes, ugly ugly thread. I hope we can get our opinons across w/o namecalling.

I must be the only one to not place a high value on warrantys. You know how often a Chris Reeve one piece gets destroyed in use? Probably 0.01%. It isn't hard to tell how much abuse a knife will put up with just by looking at it. One look at TOP's thick blade, obtuse edge, full tang handle and you know its near impossible to destory. Same for Busse, Strider, Mineral Mountain and all others like them.

Companies like Busse and Strider charge more for their knives because they factor in an insurance against dishonest customers. Basically they are selling you the warranty, something I don't care to buy. I can make you some crappy knives that cost $3, I'll sell it for $300 with unlimted replacement warranty would you want it? On the other hand, I'll make you a super-tough, neigh-indestructable knife for $200, would you pay another hundred for a warranty for the off chance it gets hit by a missle? Sorry I rather save my pennies and buy a backup knife.

I only use knives hard when I know they are designed for the job, and even then I'm careful with them, because a warranty is not going to do me any good if I'm stuck in the middle of nowhere with a broken knife. If I need to abuse something, I'm not going to hold back for the lack of a warranty either. You got to do what you got to do, it's only money.

Cliff Stamp's reviews often aren't realistic knife use, but they are more useful than a warranty. If I know the tool will put up with minor abuse(not necessarily indestrucible), made by an honest maker, that's good enough for me. I can see where Jeff Randall is coming from, toughness certainly isn't the first criterion for a good knife, let the readers beware.

 

[Eric Isaacson]

Originally posted by tallwingedgoat

I only use knives hard when I know they are designed for the job, and even then I'm careful with them, because a warranty is not going to do me any good if I'm stuck in the middle of nowhere with a broken knife. If I need to abuse something, I'm not going to hold back for the lack of a warranty either. You got to do what you got to do, it's only money.

I completely disagree with you about Busse charging more to factor in for dishonest customers.

However, the section I quoted from you above makes a good point.
The problem is that you shouldn't need to "be careful" with your knives. Buy a knife that you know can take the abuse, and use, abuse, misuse it. That's why you spend the money on a good knife, not for the warranty but because the knife is a high quality, performance knife. I don't want a strong warranty on a piece of crap, because as you stated what if you are in the "middle of nowhere". I want a strong warranty on a strong knife.

High performance knife, high performance warranty. This combination does exist.

 

[Andrew Lynch]

Originally posted by tallwingedgoat
Companies like Busse and Strider charge more for their knives because they factor in an insurance against dishonest customers. Basically they are selling you the warranty, something I don't care to buy. I can make you some crappy knives that cost $3, I'll sell it for $300 with unlimted replacement warranty would you want it? On the other hand, I'll make you a super-tough, neigh-indestructable knife for $200, would you pay another hundred for a warranty for the off chance it gets hit by a missle? Sorry I rather save my pennies and buy a backup knife.

I wouldn't be too sure. Busse, for example, has only had two knives broken that I've ever heard of, and I've been following the forum for quite a long time and have heard and read a lot of the stuff that came before me. One was a Basic 7 that was eventually destroyed by Cliff Stamp after two years of total abuse and extensive modification. The other was a Basic 5 that had its temper ruined and was subesquently broken by jamming its blade into a crate and jumping on its handle. And guess what? It was covered by the warranty. That's two cases in the history of Busse that I've heard of. I would say there are more, but hardly enough to raise the price of the knives by anything more than a tiny percentage of the original cost.

 

[fudo]

Gentlemen-and let us try to remain so. Warrantees are written the way they are because more than half of all the lawyers in the world practice in the United States. That is alot of hungry mouths to feed. A man who owns a business needs to protect his business from frivolous claims, to do otherwise would be foolish in this day and age.
A warantee is a document that does 2 things. First, it protects the business by limiting its liability against things that are beyond its control. The cost of customer service is factored into the price of any product.
Second, it is a statement of capability that tells the user what the product can be reasonably expected to do.There is an old saying that if a workman keeps his tools well, then his tools will keep him. If you need to do something with a knife that it is not designed for and it holds up, great. But even if it doesn't break, you should understand that what you did was outside design perameters.
Having said that, it is important to be aware that legalese aside,what the manufacturer actually does is more important than what the paper says. I think that it is safe to say that companies that build a quality product and take pride in the same often do more for their customers than the written warantee states. This is a point that is clearly understood by most of us here, based on our numerous transactions with others.
Eric-Respectfully, I would say that you are getting too wrapped up in the written warantees and not paying enough attention to what is actually being done.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[JamesA]

I have a couple of questions... I don't really care about the legalities, or the issue of written warranty versus how it translates into the real world, I'm trying to stick to a very specific sub issue here...

Let's hypothesize three knives...

A Busse Assault Shaker, a Livesay Woo (the 3/16th version), and a TOPS Street Scalpel. I know they're all different knives.

Newt + whoever is currently speaking for TOPS knives -- if my closet door is jammed shut and, for whatever reason, I need in RIGHT NOW... can I pry it open with the Woo or the Scalpel, without that knife failing on me?

Yes? Well then why the heck isn't prying covered in the warranty, if the knife can take it? What is stopping you guys from having a warranty that says "if you didn't mean to break it, we'll fix it?" Or even "if you didn't mean to break it, we'll replace it, but only the first time you break it that way?"

That seems, to me, to indicate a very negative view of knife users in general, to assume right from the get go that some of us are just out to rip you off... if your knives are that tough (and they may well be), then it's not going to break all that often, and while I'm not a businessman, it'd seem to me that the extra sales you'd get with a WRITTEN warranty like that would more than cover the repair costs on the few blades that'd break... heck, I can tell you right now, you (Newt specifically, in this case) would have an order for a couple of blades, you'd be getting my business instead of Busse, because I'm paying the extra $100 for the warranty, not for the materials or anything else...

It also seems, again to me, to indicate a pretty extreme lack of confidence in the durability of your blades... which is fine for some things, I've got a 1/16th talonite small fixed blade that I would never do anything extreme with, but both Tops and Livesay market stuff as hard core, high speed, low drag, all those military slang phrases...

No, those knives couldn't take it? Well, then, you can't blame me for picking a knife whose maker, a man who obviously knows more about the blade than I do, has showed me that he is confident that it can handle this kind of use, by telling me that if it breaks, -if- it breaks, he will fix it?

I'd love to hear your thoughts, Newt, Jeff, Eric... am I missing something vital here?

 

[Brian Jones]

Originally posted by Eric Isaacson


I've never doubted what you say about Mike Fuller, I question why he is so afraid to write a warranty that protects his users butt(the consumer). Instead he writes one than protects his own butt.

Eric, this is a pathetic and totally contradictory statement.

Obviously, you never met Mike Fuller or dealt with him. If you have met and dealt with him, then this is a sour-puss lame attempt to build yourself up at someone else's expense. I would not deal with you or your company in any way, simply because of the lack of character you display on this forum. Plus, it's an attack on a guy who doesn't hang out here, and isn't around to rebut your stupidity. Go figure, he knows what a bunch of a$$holes are in here, and how these forums so often descend into idiocy.

You are an example of a little man, with not much business sense or ethics, trying to attach words like "afraid" and "protect his own butt' to a man who has repeatedly demonstrated his integrity and honr, yet you choose to hold on to your view in a poor attempt to promote your knives by silly attempts to denigrate another maker.

Mike Fuller has "been there and done that" more than you, me, Jerry, and most of us alive today.

I just do not understand your contempt for Mike. It does not make any rational sense at all -- except I wonder if it's a lame attempt to insert yourself into a discussion that had nothing to do with you or your knives, in order to try and promote them. This thread is about TOPS, not Eric Isaacson.

Go away, and good luck with your knife business -- you will need it.

 

[Newt Livesay]

Brian Jones;
Excellent post.


JamesA;
Why would you say you would NOT buy a WOO because of my warranty? What part of my warranty do you not like that would be so terrible or misleading that you would deprive yourself of a WOO knife?

I am going to bed, and not read, think, or care about this thread every again.

Newt Livesay
maker

PS;
JamesA, forget those questions above. I do not want to sell you a knife sir. Thank you very kindly anyway. Goodbye

 

[Trace Rinaldi]

I have seen Cliff Stamp throw so many reputable people under the bus,it just makes me ill... Jeff Randall and Ron Hood hang it ALL out for everyone to see, and I respect them for that...They could give a $hit about what the "Knife World" thinks, and thats saying something from guys who write for knife rags!!!.. I would NOT sell Stamp a knife if I was starving in the desert.... This $hit is so worn out... Mike Fuller is one of the best guys there is, if you FORK up one of his knives he will take care of you no prob... I have YET to hear a customer complaint!!!! I am so sick of pointy headed ego freaks that think they know it all...
DONT EVEN bother with writing a ****ing novel about how I am wrong, I wont even look at it...
This stuff is BS and you should just gloss over it... THIS AINT what its all about... Get a ****ing life or a girlfriend or SOMETHING....
Also Erik Busse knives stand well by themselves, they dont need some POS like you out trying to "Hype" them... Good luck on your new venture, you are really gonna need it...

 

[AntDog]

Whew! There are some strong opinions being thrown around in this thread! It seems to have turned into a discussion of warranties. When it comes to knives, I don't worry about the warranty.

I have bought, used, and yes even abused a lot of knives and sent quite a few in for service. Know how many times I have been turned away or been screwed out of service? NONE!

I have dealt with both Jerry Busse and Mike Fuller, and both have been more than willing to do anything they could to help me out. I don't buy a knife thinking "gee, what if I'm using this thing and it breaks" what B.S. I buy a knife for a specific use, and if it fails or does not meet my expectations, I contact the company.

I think a lot of good would come from giving most manufacturers the benefit of the doubt. Most of them will be happy to work with you. (If not, there is always this public forum for you to use to voice your dissatisfaction) If a certain manufacturer is not willing to work with you, you can spread the word and not buy their knives.

Just my humble opinion, and not meant to feed ANY flames in any way.

 

[Dark Nemesis]

Hey! Mr. Rinaldi, thought you'd stop by this thread Good to hear from you again. How things going, enjoy the Blade show?



Oh geez look at that I almost forgot the main reason for my post...that's what happens this early in the morning ya know? You just get on to make a quick comment but take a second to say hi to someone. Next thing you know your mind just goes blank. Must be old age setting in, then again it might only be lack of mountain dew. God! it happened again.....


Ah now I remember! As to a comment made way way way way back in this thread of some companies charging for the warranty to cover dishonest people. Well yes I am dishonest about some things, but not knives. Like that sweet young girl I was talking at the bar......nevermind another loooong story. I don't think fine upstanding companies like Strider, Busse, and many others charge extra for their warranty. HOWEVER if this market did come down to that THEN BY ALL MEANS CHARGE ME THE FRICKING(appropriate non-profanity word) MONEY!! I'd rather pay $200 dollars and know my knife is covered all the way to WWIII(fyi, right around the corner) where $100 of that total is for the warranty.

Alright having that been said I'd like to buy a round of drinks for everyone seeing how this has been a long long thread of well......I just don't even know. Go on down to your local bar have a double shot on me and just tell the bartender it's on Dark Nemesis's tab

 

[Boink]

I've got a TOPS night chaser on order. Should I cancel the order?