what about TOPS?

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It still comes down to this, the way the TOPS warranty is written infers that they don't trust the ability of their knives. They want you to buy them and trust them, yet they won't trust them enough to put a lifetime warranty on them.

I'll buy a knife that has a lifetime warranty in writing over theirs any day. I shouldn't have to call and talk to someone about the warranty, put it in writing.

Let the customer decide what should be covered under warranty not the company.
 
Personally I would rather have an honest man that tells me EXACTLY how it is (whether I like it or not) than written policy that the owners use every loophole and excuse to get around fullfilling - I can name a few of these makers because I just got through getting my ears full at Blade on them and their "policy." Some makers will tell you something to save your feelings and then they never deliver, and make a thousand excuses why they didn't.

Again, I could understand if TOPS had a history of screwing customers out of warranty work, but I haven't found the first user this has happened to. It's not like they are a new company that no one knows anything about. They have a solid track record - and this comes from someone that no longer uses them to make our knives. (Nothing sinister about that except we have a deal with Ontario now)

I can understand your point though and to save argument I will agree to disagree with you. Maybe it would "look" better to re-write their policy and maybe I'm biased because I and every other user I know have had nothing but first-rate service from TOPS and Mike Fuller.
 
Agreed with Jeff completely.

Eric, there can be a million reasons why a warranty is listed like that. TOPS is a partnership amonst several -- and although Mike is the main owner, maybe others who are not directly involved in the day-to-day stuff asked him to post that warranty.

But Jeff is right -- Mike has never failed even ONCE to replace or repair anything that might've been broken. In most cases, it's impossible to tell what a person did to damage a knife, so the maker must take their word for it, and Mike HAPPILY (read: without questioning or complaining to the user) makes his customers satisfied. So, the warranty is just words, and as Jeff has said, it's the history of actual practice that counts -- plain and simple.

I have heard of other companies who recieved a knife back from a user who "accidentally broke it," and then asked for a different model instead, or just wanted a different knife and ask for a refund.

I think warranties can protect makers against this type of fraud.

Onr thing I find sad is that so many in this industry think that there is only one good knife, so all the rest suck. A lot of times its apples and oranges, and there are SO many great blades out there. I admire your loyalty to your favorite maker, Eric. It's very, very cool.

I, too, think Jerry's knives are rock 'n' roll in every way. His basic line is the only "rubber handle category" knife I've found to be a winner in this industry.


All the Best,

Brian.
 
ERIC:
YOUR OPINIONS ON THE QUALITY AND WARRANTY OF TOPS KNIVES ARE WELL TAKEN, BUT I WOULD URGE YOU TO REVIEW THE WARRANTIES ON EVERYTHING YOU BUY. YOU'LL FIND THAT MOST COMPANIES HAVE TO COVER THEMSELVES FROM CRACKPOTS, AND THE ONES THAT DON'T, HAVE SO MUCH PROFIT AND SO LITTLE VALUE IN THEIR PRODUCTS THAT THEY CAN EASILY GIVE YOU FULL REPLACEMENT WITHOUT HURTING THEMSELVES. ALL WARRANTIES HAVE LIMITS EVEN IF THEY ARE "LIFETIME." TOPS IS STILL SMALL ENOUGH TO GIVE GREAT CUSTOMER SERVICE, AND THE FULLERS ARE HONORABLE, HONEST AND GOOD TO THEIR WORD. THERE ARE MANY FINE KNIFE MAKERS IN THE MARKET PLACE, AND I HOPE YOU FIND ONE YOUR PERFECT ONE.
 
Jeff Randall :

I would rather have an honest man that tells me EXACTLY how it is (whether I like it or not) than written policy that the owners use every loophole and excuse to get around fullfilling
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There are companies ran by honest men that offer full warrenties and apply them without hesitation. Busse for example, has on many occasions dealt with warrenty issues in public in an open and clear manner. Bill Martino of HI has done the same. The real issue that is being glossed over is that the warrenty isn't the critical point, but the fact that these individuals will actually talk about the performance of their knives in an open and clear manner, and guarantee that the performance is as they describe. This is a point Eric has made elsewhere, no hype, just guaranteed performance.

As for cases of the TOPS breakages :

On the Hoods forum a user broke the tip off an Anaconada (or Steel Eagle possibly, but Anaconda sticks out to me), digging in wood, and was told that the point would be reground, and the knife was not intended to be used in that way. The same argument could be made if the whole knife snapped in half, or whatever .

As well I damaged a Steel Eagle several times functionally and got no reply from the email address on the TOPS website. This is also a warrenty problem as you are listing contact means for warrenty issues which you don't bother to actually implement. It is no different than not answering the phone.

However even if this isn't the case and no one had a problem with the knives, this is hardly a cause for confidence for a user. How are they to know that they won't simply be the first unless the maker states this clearly. How can a user be confident that it isn't an issue if TOPS isn't. It is of course obvious that someone with Brians experience with the TOPS folder would have a very high opinion of it (I know I would), however will TOPS actually guarantee the folder to act as he described? No, they don't .

As for your low opinion of full warrenties - when Livesay had a full warrenty, and you were selling his knives, this was one of the aspects of his blades you promoted, when he removed it, you started attacking full warrenties. Though I do agree that a full warrenty on its own means nothing. What is critical is how long it is in existance, has it ever been used, and will the maker actually deal with such issues in public.

All of this being said, I doubt that anyone would be not be satisfied with the durablity of TOPS blades in general. They tend to carry thick cross sections, and 1095 is a very tough steel. Though again, someone without my experience isn't going to be as comfortable making this statement because TOPS won't. As for other aspects of TOPS blades, in general, the cutting ability and handle ergonomics are not overly high, though the handle security is extreme. Many of the earlier models were also heavy "fad" influenced, newer ones seems cleaner. The price is also very high for production work. Consider the customs you can get in the same price range.

As for warrenties in general, I have worked with custom makers and never asked them about warrenties at all, Mel Sorg for example. but it was clear from the conversation that it wasn't an issue as they would openly describe where and how the knife would fail. Where the limits of use were, and what would happen when they were exceeded. That being said, I can easily understand how someone without my experience with the maker would be off put by a heavily claused warrenty when you can easily go elsewhere and avoid it.

-Cliff
 
Hey Stiff Clamp, why don't you ask Ron Hood how that problem was handled with the Anaconda. Hell I've broken and bent Livesay RTAKs. I have NEVER doubted that a TOPS blade can be broken but on those same lines I have never doubted Mike Fuller at making everything good, even when the way it was broken was in doubt. I think the reason for TOPS warranties is to protect his company from mad newfie "scientists" such as yourself that love tearing up steel balls with rubber mallets, then coming to some bullshit scientific reason that it failed - when the bottom line is it was abused. The funny thing is all this scientific approach you take makes dumbass conclusions that aboslutley don't work in a REAL field environment. Such as you recent one: the machete needs to be harder. I guess you never have hit a rock with your machete or actually used one like it's suppose to be. My conclusion with you and your science is you're an educated idiot. Yes, that's an intended personal attack...and I seriously doubt the educated part. So ban me from the forums.

Bottom line is the warranty is only as good as the man or company backing it up. Oh, you could sue them for not holding to their warranty but why not just deal with honorable folks like TOPS to start with?

Your turn.... Ask me why we chose to make the RTAK harder being that it's a machete type blade. Or have you actually figured that one out?
 
Jeff :

[low RC on machetes]

I guess you never have hit a rock with your machete
Click to expand...

Yes, on occasion, I have also hit them with harder blades as well. The belief that the low machete hardness (~45 RC) is necessary to get enough durability comes from the steel grades and heat treating practices used. However it doesn't hold on higher grade steels with tighter heat treating practices.

Those steels at the higher RC will actually have less damaged induced because of the greater compaction resistance and lateral strength. It also allows them to be ground to a thinner and/or more acute edge and thus offer a higher level of cutting ability.

My conclusion with you and your science is you're an educated idiot.
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A sign that you can't make a solid arguement and have to resort to attacking the individual.

As for how it was handled [tip break], all I can go on is what was said publically, which is what I referenced in the above.

-Cliff
 
In his usual "half the story" way Cliff mentions the issue with the broken blade on the Hood forum. What he fails to say is that the blade was replaced with a brand new blade and sheath.

The blade had been abused.

TOPS remains a top performer in every category important to a field user. It may not be the best for the "Destroy them if you can" cult. I have never had much use for the Rasputin of the knife world and still don't.

Ron Hood
 
Originally posted by Brian Jones
Hey Eric,

What's with the witch-hunt, dude?
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Brian,
No witch-hunt, however, pythonrms states "their warranty is better" I believe it is incorrect.

I understand you like TOPS and don't have a problem with that. You say Mike Fuller is an honest man with Integrity, I believe you. What I have a problem with is the warranty. Plain and simple.
 
Sorry, Eric,

I reread the thread and missed that somone else brought up the warranty issue. under the circumstances, I see why you continued that discussion.

Apologies.

~B.
 
Pythonrms-you don't need to yell.Please do not type in all Caps. Thank you
 
Originally posted by Cliff Stamp
Jeff :
Yes, on occasion, I have also hit them with harder blades as well. The belief that the low machete hardness (~45 RC) is necessary to get enough durability comes from the steel grades and heat treating practices used. However it doesn't hold on higher grade steels with tighter heat treating practices.

Those steels at the higher RC will actually have less damaged induced because of the greater compaction resistance and lateral strength. It also allows them to be ground to a thinner and/or more acute edge and thus offer a higher level of cutting ability.

Thus raising making the price of a 5 dollar machete drastically higher. Great news for the Third World. Personally I don't even believe your theory. Cliff, were you born with a silver spoon in your mouth and never had to do anything for yourself? It's great if you can afford all these high dollar blades but most REAL users surviving everyday on an edge don't have that kind of money. The funny part is these folks that live in the bush can out-do you anyday with their POS blade while you have all these high dollar toys. Ready to take my challenge yet? You keep avoiding this question....typical Stiff Clamp though.



A sign that you can't make a solid arguement and have to resort to attacking the individual.


No, you're just an idiot that doesn't have a clue about real field use. When you decide to inject your bullshit into this game by opening your mouth, then someone needs to inject some sanity into the thread. Yep, it IS a personal attack but only because I don't like you worth a damn, I think your logic sucks, I think your science is flawed, and a believe you to be someone who needs attention because he has no other road in life. Basically a loser and an idiot. There...I did it again...personally attacked you and will continue to do so as long as you continue to inject zero common sense into threads from folks who are really in search of practical and experienced answers. I could give the first damn about how many folks you have suckered into supporting you or whether I have any support at all in these discussions. I'm tired of your bullshit and will call it like I see it until they throw me off of here. Again, repeat after me: Cliff Stamp is an idiot with no real field experience.



As for how it was handled [tip break], all I can go on is what was said publically, which is what I referenced in the above.
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Being that you are so "factually based" I figured it would be beneath your intelligence to rely on what was "publicly said." Now, Cliffy that ain't real scientific to spread such rumor.

Eric, indeed the blades I know of WERE abused and TOPS DID warranty that...you took my sentence out of context.
 
A short note about warranties. In my opinion Mike Fuller whom I know and respect has as good a warranty as I do or anyone else has that is honest in there dealing with people. First off Mike or I could warranty any knife we make for life if we were getting two or three times the retail price of a knife that should only sale for a third of the price.

My warranty on my products has never changed since day one that I made and sold a knife. What has changed is the written warranty policy (ies) that has been dictated to other makers like Mike Fuller at TOPS, and myself. I am speaking for my self, and in general terms here now, but warranties are a manufactures way of protecting our selves from the very few people who are dishonest, and in general terms are stupid crooked people trying to screw someone out of something for nothing.

i.e: We had a customer call an say that he had broken the tip off an Air Assault just by while slicing something up. We said we would warranty the knife, maybe it had a heat sink or crack in it? His wife called a day or so latter and wanted to know the address. During the telephone conversation she said that she had told her husband to stop throwing the knife at a large tree or he would break it. Now my ears perk up. She volunteered the total story, and I denied the warranty on those grounds.

A post from above is that we the manufactures should let the customers make all the decisions on warranties? Would that policy be the same with the auto industry? The auto industry should say that you’re in charge on all warranties when you buy a new automobile. If you drive the car or truck to fast, run it low on oil, or drive with low tire pressure and break, destroy, or burn something up we the automaker will give you a new one. Now you tell me what is the difference in this an buying a knife?

If your stupid enough to not clean the dirt-dauber nest out of your shot gun barrel before shooting it and it blows up in your face is the gun manufacture liable? The only difference in the scenarios is the parts or items that you are playing with.

Warranties are here to protect the manufacture from stupid people. Now that may sound harsh and make someone’s tit sore, but use some common sense and think about it. My policy is two pages long, and in writing now. I had to pay out the nose for an attorney to write this for us so we would be protected from a very few of the irresponsible people trying to get something for free.
Newt Livesay
maker


Newt Livesay Web Pages
 
Originally posted by JeffRandall

Eric, indeed the blades I know of WERE abused and TOPS DID warranty that...you took my sentence out of context.
Click to expand...

Did I also take this out of context
"However, it is incumbent upon the owner to ensure that the knife is kept free of contaminants or corrosive substances and that the use of the knife is restricted to prudent and applicable functions. Any misuse of this knife other than to fulfill normal "knife-like" functions will result in voiding of this warranty. The Company reserves the right to make the final decision as to what is considered "fair use" or abuse."

This is direct from their warranty other "knife-like" functions will result in voiding of this warranty. The Company reserves the right to make the final decision as to what is considered "fair use" or abuse"

You yourself said that their warranty was written to protect themselves against "mad newfie scientists", what's to say that if I damage or destroy a blade they just don't say I was some made scientist or the knife wasn't used in a "knife-like" manner. And they are the ones that get to determine if it was knife-like. Why should I trust this blade if they don't, if they did trust it they would replace it if it failed. And they would put that in writing in the warranty.

One other note, they are the ones promoting their knives to be used hard with ads like "They're hard to the core" . If they intend them to be used hard there is the chance they will be damaged, will they replace it? I don't know because the warranty says its up to them. Why don't they let me decide what's abuse and what I need to use my knife on, what's "knife like" and what's not. Am I expected to handle this knife with "kid gloves" for fear my use may not be "knife like"

As I've said before, TOPS obviously isn't for me. I want a company that will warranty the knife against abuse, misuse and any other crazy thing that I might need to do with my knife and put that warranty in WRITING
 
Maybe we do things a little differently where I come from but I have always taken a man on his word until he screws me. I can count numerous times that the manufacturer has fixed something for me even after the warranty was out because they knew the problem shouldn't have happened. As Newt and others have posted here, the "legal" jargan, for the most part, is for the idiots, moochers, and users of the world. I still believe that if you are honest in your dealings with people, for the most part, you will be treated honestly. A good example of this is a friend of mine bought two new Ford tractors a couple of years ago. Twenty hours after the warranty was out on one of them the motor locked up. He called Ford and told them it was sitting in the middle of a hayfield. The next day the local Ford dealer delivered a loaner tractor for the man to finish his hay crop. They also picked up his tractor and replaced the motor. No charges, no fuss. They didn't have to but the publicity and reputation would have suffered, not to mention losing a customer. How does this relate to Mike Fuller? Think about it. Do you actually believe Mike would allow a broken knife to jeopardize his whole reputation, especially when the user calls him and honestly tells him what happened. Sure some knife makers might do this, but those are the ones you read all the negative posts about here on BladeForums. I could understand this whole thread about TOPS if there was supportive evidence of past bad dealings. No Stiff Clamp your Anaconda half-truth doesn't qualify.

Jeff
 
Eric, if you will email me your address I will mail you a TOPS knife to beat the hell out of and play around with. It will cost you nothing but a few minutes of your time to send me an email. You can keep it for your own collection since I have a bunch of them. I don't work for TOPS and I make no money from TOPS but I would like for you to realize they're a great company to deal with.

If you break it I won't warranty it though :)

Now, with all of that said I will say that most of their designs don't suit me, and the ones that do suit me very well. I like thinner blades - that break easier :) - because I'm big on cutting effiency.

I have no beef with you at all and even understand your points, but I can tell you that you are off-base when it comes to Mike Fuller and TOPS.
 
...I don't know you and I don't know Cliff Stamp, although I have read articles you have written as well as reviews that Cliff has done.

I have to start by saying that I could not continue to sit idly by and watch your ravings Jeff. As a contributing editor to Tactical Knives I am surprised by your strong personal attacks of Cliff Stamp. Name calling is unprofessional, unecessary and evidence that you are either losing your mind or your argument (or perhaps both).

While I am associated with Busse Combat, I do so because I want to be - and not because it pays my salary. One of the main reasons I am is because of the man and the warranty. No BS - if the knife breaks he fixes or replaces it. Everyone is entitled to write their warranties the way they want to, but in our litigious world I have found too many people hide behind the fine print - which TOPS appears to do. For that reason I choose not to buy their knives regardless of how cheap they might be.

I have to also agree with Eric Isaacson: "I want a knife I can abuse, I guess I won't buy a TOPS" or a Livesay for that matter. Personal preference I guess, but I don't want someone hiding behind the small print if something happens to my knife. (Although Mr. Livesay it appears your fine print is not all that fine).

I also will not request that any company that I decide to associate with advertise or in any way patronize Tactical Knives if you Mr. Randall are the type of man that they employ and support. Your arguments and personal attacks were out of line and immature and not worthy of this fine forum.
 
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