What are Spyderco's factories in China and Taiwan like?

I don't give a squat where the Spydies I like are made. I just collect what catches my eye, whether it was made in the USA, Japan, China, Taiwan, Italy, Switzerland, or anywhere else Spyderco might have a knife made. I like the looks of the Sage, but there are other knives I'm saving for....that's the only thing keeping me from buying one.
 
I've been thinking about getting a Sage lately too. I was pretty amazed when I first handled one; it was shocking to see that level of fit and finish on a knife from Taiwan. I do think there's a pride of ownership in US made Spydercos, but you can't really question the quality coming out of Taiwan now.
 
I don't have a sage, it's not a knife that appeals to me, but I wouldn't have any reservations buying a Spyderco from Taiwan. At one time I would have assumed the worst, but things are always changing.

And opinions change slower. For example, a few of you brought up the Tacoma. We consider GM and Ford the American car companies, but did you know most of their parts are not made in this country? In fact, 9 of the top 10 "most American" cars are Toyotas, if by "most American" you mean most parts manufactured in America (plus over half of Toyotas are made in this country, too). Saying that by buying GM/Ford you're supporting U.S. manufacturing is like saying that by buying fruit grown in another country from a U.S.-owned grocery store supports the U.S. food industry.
 
Besides which, Spyderco doesn't own any offshore production facilities. Like other makers they contract with them.
Denis
 
Hi James,

This is obviously a subject of interest recently.

First I would suggest that you think along the lines of "brand". "Companies" or "brands" generally operate on particular philosophies unique to their name. Some make "as cheap as poossible", some are eye appealing, some high performing, some are cool, etc.

Secondly, I would suggest that you think in terms of "skilled" rather than country. Very skilled knife-makers are not common on this planet. If they happen to have developed their skill in ABC country or XYZ country seems of little importance when you get to enjoy their skill. Music would be an example.

Then I would suggest that you think of Taiwan as different from China. While their Chinese heritage is strong, they have had many influences from Japan (50 years ) and the US (60 years). They are a small country with fewer people than California. I saw very little poverty in Taiwan.

We work with the owners of the companies. Our standards are generally a jolt. Many can't do it. Some feel it's not worth the effort (seeking easier money). Some will listen and work with us. We seek long term high quality makers that are passionate about knives and want to work with us. "Passion is the spice in the spirit that makes excellence possible". We work with lupes, calipers and sometimes microscopes. We have many ways of doing things that are new to them, eg; arc ramps for Walker linerlocks and Reeve integral locks.

As far as the factories go:

Our Taiwan makers operate more like Seki-City in that the maker controls all production, but only final processing and assembly are done in their plant. Subcontractors are used for many operations. The main plant as well as all of the subcontrctors we toured are clean, very high tech, skilled, trained employees. They drive nice cars (motor scooters in town), have cell phones, and seemed genuinely pleased and enthusiastic to be able to make knives for Spyderco. A status enjoyed only by a few makers worldwide. We are difficult to work with.

Chinese factories are more varied. The country is very large and there are many differences between areas and factories in different areas. We are new to many of them. We are also still learning about them. Some are very clean and modern, some are not.

Manufacturing is more likely all done in one plant, no subcontractors except maybe for some tooling. Many provide lodging on the factory grounds in large apartment complexes with playgrounds and security. Many of the workers come in from the country and will return to the country. The crew of some factories are well dressed, most have cell phones and they smile when we come through.

There are also, (as with other countries) companies that we don't work with for one reason or another. There are some that we've tried but will drop for one reason or another. The questions that you ask are also the questions we ask when developing a relationwhip with a maker.

As far as the steel being the steel we say, we were the first company to put the steel on almost all of our knives, make steel charts and teach the differences in steel. We buy the steel and we ship it. Then we test it.

Unless you are suggesting that we might be lying about the steel? In which case, you are welcome to test it yourself. We test steel all of the time, from our makers and from our competitors.

Hope that helps.

sal
 
The Bob T slipit and Sage II are amazing knives. Discounting them because of where they are made is foolish.

_MG_9830.jpg
 
Thanks for the replies everybody, and especially Mr. Glesser for your substantial and informative reply.

I'm not saying you're lying about the s30v. But, from watching documentaries on sweatshops and factories in China and places, and also seeing all the recalled products from there, I know the factory owners in those countries aren't the most scrupulous people. So what I would seriously wonder is if some of them might be appropriating the s30v steel to sell on their own and replacing it with cheaper counterfeit steel blades that they make themselves.

Furthermore I suspect that when you take a tour of the factories over there they make an effort to make it look a lot nicer than usual, and make it look like the employees are being treated better than they are. As far as having cell phones, cell phones can be had for very cheap these days, many in a range of $15 - $30 so that doesn't mean much. Also, living in housing provided by the factory with "security" sounds a lot like indentured servitude to me.

First world countries almost always produce better merchandise, even if it's more expensive. Unless a country is a true first world country (not just in the process of getting to be first world), I don't trust their products.

In thinking a long the lines of a brand, brands are not static, they change over the years. It's not all that uncommon for brands to lose their reputations for quality.

Ever listen to an iPod?
Ride a bicycle lately?
Ever hear of Trek, Specialized? Their aluminum framed bikes, along with their entry level carbon framed bikes are all made by Giant.
Giant of Taiwan is the biggest bicycle manufacturer in the world and makes most of the aluminum framed bikes sold here and they do an outstanding job.
Click to expand...

I have not ever listened to an ipod in my life, but I do hear things about them breaking all the time and only lasting a few years.

Have I ever heard of Trek bicycles? No. But a quick google search turned up a recall of Trek bikes made in Taiwan on the first page of results. As you can see here:

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml09/09224.html

It says the manufacturer of the recalled bikes is "JD Components, of Taiwan". I bet Trek's US made bikes, if they have any, haven't been recalled.

@ The Deacon. I could write in the style of Charles Dickens too if I wanted, that doesn't make you right. Underneath all your florid language there's one simple accusation. You're saying I'm ignorant for believing products made in Taiwan are crap, when in fact, the products coming out of there usually are substandard and it's a common sense observation. That makes me the opposite of ignorant, and it makes you someone who's pulling the wool over their own eyes because you don't want to believe a company you're a big fan and collector of could ever put profit over quality sometimes.
 
The USA has plenty of recalls on products made here. We had a 1997 Chevy once that spent more time in the shop for recall work than it did at home.
If you don't want to buy Taiwan and Chinese made knives, don't. You can actually manage to live your entire life and only buy USA made knives. If it's that big of a deal to you. You will be wearing and using many other things made in China and probably Taiwan (those you won't be able to avoid) But, you can get by nicely without knives made outside the USA. There's no reason to have a snit fit about it, if it means that much to you just do it.:)
 
James0723 said:
Thanks for the replies everybody, and especially Mr. Glesser for your substantial and informative reply.

Quite nice of you.

I'm not saying you're lying about the s30v. But, from watching documentaries on sweatshops and factories in China and places, and also seeing all the recalled products from there, I know the factory owners in those countries aren't the most scrupulous people. So what I would seriously wonder is if some of them might be appropriating the s30v steel to sell on their own and replacing it with cheaper counterfeit steel blades that they make themselves.

Bullshit I call it. First off, China doesn't use any S30V. Second, the two Taiwan blades I have (Bob T and Sage II) perform and sharpen up exactly like the 4-5 S30V Spyderco Militaries I've had (USA Made), Paramilitarys (USA Made), and Chinook 3 (USA Made). I wouldn't be one for trying to fool Sal with how I run my company.

Furthermore I suspect that when you take a tour of the factories over there they make an effort to make it look a lot nicer than usual, and make it look like the employees are being treated better than they are. As far as having cell phones, cell phones can be had for very cheap these days, many in a range of $15 - $30 so that doesn't mean much. Also, living in housing provided by the factory with "security" sounds a lot like indentured servitude to me.

Now you start discounting what everyone else is trying to tell you. Having a phone is a status. Having a car is a status. Having a roof over your head is a status. It doesn't matter much how it "sounds" to you, it matters how it is, your opinion is worthless unless you've been there or seen this first hand. Sweat shops aren't known for the quality of knives I see represented in these two (Bob T & Sage II).

First world countries almost always produce better merchandise, even if it's more expensive. Unless a country is a true first world country (not just in the process of getting to be first world), I don't trust their products.

As Sal stated, he chooses by the manufacturer, not the country of origin. I doubt you would consider Taiwan third world.

In thinking a long the lines of a brand, brands are not static, they change over the years. It's not all that uncommon for brands to lose their reputations for quality.

If you've even picked up a Spyderco knife in your life you would know that the quality and attention to detail is consistently improving. Look at what they have done with the back lock and liner lock, simplistic designs that have been studied and improved ten fold.

I have not ever listened to an ipod in my life, but I do hear things about them breaking all the time and only lasting a few years.

Funny, mines going on 6 and I've never had a problem. :rolleyes:

Have I ever heard of Trek bicycles? No. But a quick google search turned up a recall of Trek bikes made in Taiwan on the first page of results. As you can see here:

You've never heard of Trek? Do you live in the third world?

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml09/09224.html

Cool, so you can google. So can a lot of other ten year olds.

It says the manufacturer of the recalled bikes is "JD Components, of Taiwan". I bet Trek's US made bikes, if they have any, haven't been recalled.

Plenty of US companies have issued recalls.

@ The Deacon. I could write in the style of Charles Dickens too if I wanted, that doesn't make you right. Underneath all your florid language there's one simple accusation. You're saying I'm ignorant for believing products made in Taiwan are crap, when in fact, the products coming out of there usually are substandard and it's a common sense observation. That makes me the opposite of ignorant, and it makes you someone who's pulling the wool over their own eyes because you don't want to believe a company you're a big fan and collector of could ever put profit over quality sometimes.
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It's a bullshit observation because you have little, or no, way of examining what is and what could have been given the large variety of variables that go into making a particular product. Not only that, but there are more then one manufacturing plant in Taiwan, so to assume all products are crap because of one bad experience is very ignorant.
 
James0723 said:
Thanks for the replies everybody, and especially Mr. Glesser for your substantial and informative reply.

I'm not saying you're lying about the s30v. But, from watching documentaries on sweatshops and factories in China and places, and also seeing all the recalled products from there, I know the factory owners in those countries aren't the most scrupulous people. So what I would seriously wonder is if some of them might be appropriating the s30v steel to sell on their own and replacing it with cheaper counterfeit steel blades that they make themselves.

Furthermore I suspect that when you take a tour of the factories over there they make an effort to make it look a lot nicer than usual, and make it look like the employees are being treated better than they are. As far as having cell phones, cell phones can be had for very cheap these days, many in a range of $15 - $30 so that doesn't mean much. Also, living in housing provided by the factory with "security" sounds a lot like indentured servitude to me.

First world countries almost always produce better merchandise, even if it's more expensive. Unless a country is a true first world country (not just in the process of getting to be first world), I don't trust their products.

In thinking a long the lines of a brand, brands are not static, they change over the years. It's not all that uncommon for brands to lose their reputations for quality.



I have not ever listened to an ipod in my life, but I do hear things about them breaking all the time and only lasting a few years.

Have I ever heard of Trek bicycles? No. But a quick google search turned up a recall of Trek bikes made in Taiwan on the first page of results. As you can see here:

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml09/09224.html

It says the manufacturer of the recalled bikes is "JD Components, of Taiwan". I bet Trek's US made bikes, if they have any, haven't been recalled.

@ The Deacon. I could write in the style of Charles Dickens too if I wanted, that doesn't make you right. Underneath all your florid language there's one simple accusation. You're saying I'm ignorant for believing products made in Taiwan are crap, when in fact, the products coming out of there usually are substandard and it's a common sense observation. That makes me the opposite of ignorant, and it makes you someone who's pulling the wool over their own eyes because you don't want to believe a company you're a big fan and collector of could ever put profit over quality sometimes.
Click to expand...

Like Sal said, "Test the steel yourself." Of course, it is much easier for you to speculate and accuse than it is for you do do any work (having the steel on a Taiwanese or Chinese made Spyderco tested). You're just lazy, and on top of that, I would add pretty ignorant.;)

3G
 
yablanowitz said:
As for their "reputation for making shoddy products", they make what they get paid to make. If American companies out to maximize their profits ask for the cheapest possible construction, they crank out junk. If an American company specifies quality, they produce Byrds.
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Yup when I was in manufacturing we sent stuff to Taiwan and had inspectors there. Stuff made for the USA Navy. But we soon decided it was easier just to make it in the USA. So they can make quality products if you pay for it. Then theres the $ store. Not all the same :)
 
I'll throw something else into the mix here. I could be wrong, and if I am, please correct me.

I would imagine that a company as small as Spyderco doesn't have their Golden factory set up to produce the entire product line all the time. So by producing knives in other facilities it frees up the US factory for production of the higher end knives without having to stop production for the Byrd line.

The argument that everything made in China is crap is silly. China can make some crap, the United States can make equally bad crap. Both countries can easily make high quality product.

I would prefer my knives to be American, Japanese, German or Swiss. Taiwan doesn't bother me in the least though. I don't own any China made knives, but that's more because there aren't any that really interest me.

There's a world of difference between facilities set up to produce knives with supervised quality control and those that pump out all the knock offs.

The next time you want to say that all the crap in the world comes from China, just remember, the United States is responsible for the Ford Pinto.
 
Tenacious is made in China,..that was my fist Spyderco,..got it two weeks ago. Since then I got Military S30V, Military D2, Military S90V, 2 Paras in D2...and I still love Tenacious so much that I am going to buy few more. I quess 'Chinese' product got me hooked up.
 
I, too, prefer Seki-Japan or Golden, CO Spydies; however, I would not hesitate to get a Taiwan-made knife (I have several) if the model caught my fancy. I actually lived in Taiwan (Taipei) for almost 8 years. I suppose there are still sweat shops there. There are supposedly sweat shops right here in the US. And I seriously doubt a hi-tech, knife-making facility that produces in Taiwan for Spyderco or Benchmade, for example, will be 'sweatshops'. I haven't lived in China so can't comment on that, other than to say, don't confuse China and Taiwan as being the same; they aren't.

Heck, I've considered a Tenacious, made in China. The main thing keeping me from buying one is there are other knives that take precedence on my short list in the foreseeable future.
Jim
 
This is a bizarre thread. It's got a paranoid, and mistrusting lean to it.

So what I would seriously wonder is if some of them might be appropriating the s30v steel to sell on their own and replacing it with cheaper counterfeit steel blades that they make themselves.
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James, you sure don't seem as if you know much about knives, steel, business, and certainly seem not to know diddly about Spyderco or Sal.

Do you really think S30V steel could be stolen by the factory, replaced with a cheaper steel, sent to Spyderco for QC inspection and not be noticed? Then not be noticed by us, the buyers?

This is the most bizarre and uninformed statement I've ever seen here at Bladeforums since I've began coming here. Wow! Can you prove to us that you weren't stolen and replaced with a modified clone by an alien species sent here to dumb down our gene pool?

There's a much greater chance of that happening than some cheaper steel being passed off as S30V and not being noticed. By the lab, the workers, by Sal, or by people like me that can actually tell the difference.

I'm going to end my response to you as it's generally a waste of time talking to people that talk out of their depth while believing they know what they are talking about. I think I'll go sit down and talk to "Charles Dickens". I've been collecting Spydercos since 92, and he knows more about them than I do.

BTW, I have over a hundred Spydercos, and that's only about a fourth of my knife collection. I've collected knives since the late 60's.
 
James0723 said:
Thanks for the replies everybody, and especially Mr. Glesser for your substantial and informative reply.

I'm not saying you're lying about the s30v. But, from watching documentaries on sweatshops and factories in China and places, and also seeing all the recalled products from there, I know the factory owners in those countries aren't the most scrupulous people. So what I would seriously wonder is if some of them might be appropriating the s30v steel to sell on their own and replacing it with cheaper counterfeit steel blades that they make themselves.

Furthermore I suspect that when you take a tour of the factories over there they make an effort to make it look a lot nicer than usual, and make it look like the employees are being treated better than they are. As far as having cell phones, cell phones can be had for very cheap these days, many in a range of $15 - $30 so that doesn't mean much. Also, living in housing provided by the factory with "security" sounds a lot like indentured servitude to me.

First world countries almost always produce better merchandise, even if it's more expensive. Unless a country is a true first world country (not just in the process of getting to be first world), I don't trust their products.

In thinking a long the lines of a brand, brands are not static, they change over the years. It's not all that uncommon for brands to lose their reputations for quality.



I have not ever listened to an ipod in my life, but I do hear things about them breaking all the time and only lasting a few years.

Have I ever heard of Trek bicycles? No. But a quick google search turned up a recall of Trek bikes made in Taiwan on the first page of results. As you can see here:

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml09/09224.html

It says the manufacturer of the recalled bikes is "JD Components, of Taiwan". I bet Trek's US made bikes, if they have any, haven't been recalled.

@ The Deacon. I could write in the style of Charles Dickens too if I wanted, that doesn't make you right. Underneath all your florid language there's one simple accusation. You're saying I'm ignorant for believing products made in Taiwan are crap, when in fact, the products coming out of there usually are substandard and it's a common sense observation. That makes me the opposite of ignorant, and it makes you someone who's pulling the wool over their own eyes because you don't want to believe a company you're a big fan and collector of could ever put profit over quality sometimes.
Click to expand...

I don't know the figures but we have quite a few items recalled each year from right here in the USA. Hell, over the last few years I have had to check bar codes on peanut butter, baby food, peanut butter and cheese crackers and dog food. I have also had to throw out tomatoes, jalapeno's and meat to to "American" recalls.

Unfortunately, China does not own the industry on poor regulations. Can't speak for all consumers but I am still listening to my 1st generation Ipod Nano that I got sometime in 2005.

It has been dropped more times than I can tell you. Other than a few scratches, it's in perfect working order.

It's comparing apples to switchblades to try to lump a company like Spyderco into the same category as say Taylor made Schrade's or other manufacturers. They don't even compare.

When it comes to more "reputable" companies like Spyderco, I don't care one bit where the knife has been made because I know that it will be top quality. Just my 2 cents though.
 
James0723 said:
Underneath all your florid language there's one simple accusation. You're saying I'm ignorant for believing products made in Taiwan are crap, when in fact, the products coming out of there usually are substandard and it's a common sense observation.
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No James, I'm saying you are ignorant for making a blanket generalization about products from two countries, which, while arguably true to some degree for one, are grossly inaccurate for the other.

I'm saying you're ignorant for commenting on the manufacture of products of which you display zero knowledge. As an example, being confused about where Spyderco knives which use S30V steel are made. As another, failing to recognize that one plant, anywhere in the world, can turn out both shoddy and world class goods.

You were right about one thing, I have an incredible degree of respect for Sal Glesser's business ethics and do not believe him capable of the kind of shenanigans which many businesses, worldwide, engage in. I have that respect in spite of the fact that, to put it mildly, I do not share his concern for environmental issues. Which is why I'm saying you're ignorant and lazy for not taking the time to find out more about him and his company before questioning his ethics. There's a distinction, which you fail to observe, between heathy skepticism and a witch hunt.

As for defective products and recalls. From what I've read, at least a couple of those responsible for some of the Chinese ones wound up paying for a bullet. The folks from Ford and Firestone who decided it was cheaper to pay off a few lawsuits than recall defective tires got off scot-free. No country has a monopoly on greed but,whether you accept it or not, our nation was built on it.

China's current business climate is not all that different from what America's was 100 years ago. Little regulation, corrupt government officials, greedy industrialists. In truth, the only reason many US companies now have the dirty work done overseas is that the regulatory climate here prevents them from employing child labor, paying slave wages, having no concern for employee heath or safety, and dumping toxic waste here. For that, I suppose, we should be thankful, better 10,000+ Indians dead in Bhopal than in the area around a Union Carbide plant here.

Paul
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James0723 wrote

" I'm not saying you're lying about the s30v. But, from watching documentaries on sweatshops and factories in China and places, and also seeing all the recalled products from there, I know the factory owners in those countries aren't the most scrupulous people."

This I believe since China is known to have a big corruption problem.

"So what I would seriously wonder is if some of them might be appropriating the s30v steel to sell on their own"

It wouldn't surprise me, is there any proof ?(not saying your wrong)

"and replacing it with cheaper counterfeit steel blades that they make themselves."

That would be unlikely if the overseeing parties (Spyderco and Spyderco customers) are vigilant in checking quality. It would not go unnoticed for very long and the relationship with the factory would be a very short one after that.

"Furthermore I suspect that when you take a tour of the factories over there they make an effort to make it look a lot nicer than usual, and make it look like the employees are being treated better than they are. As far as having cell phones, cell phones can be had for very cheap these days, many in a range of $15 - $30 so that doesn't mean much."

I couldn't agree with you more

" Also, living in housing provided by the factory with "security" sounds a lot like indentured servitude to me."

It sure does and it sucks. Secured living facilities owned by your employer on company property is more times than not a very bad sign. It should raise alarms, it is at the very least a conflict of interests against employee empowerment to safeguard their rights and at the very most a form of indentured servitude as you say.

"First world countries almost always produce better merchandise, even if it's more expensive. Unless a country is a true first world country (not just in the process of getting to be first world), I don't trust their products."

That was true at one time and kept things in check as their were always those who insisted on quality, but unfortunately now as more reputable US and other companies move their technologies overseas to exploit the cheaper labor, the products they are producing now rival and are sometimes outright better than the same type of products from first world countries. I have been amazed at the quality of some of these lower cost products (knives in my case.) But one thing you can be sure of is somebody is paying for that quality product whether it be by sweat, blood, or tears.

"In thinking a long the lines of a brand, brands are not static, they change over the years. It's not all that uncommon for brands to lose their reputations for quality."

A) Yes some companies for some reason or another (they may have been purchased by another company) choose to pull a con game on their customers and sell utter dirt cheap crap stamped with the logo/name of what was once a reputable company.
B) Others choose to maintain quality (Spyderco, Benchmade, Cold Steel, and others) while exploiting the cheap labor in countries where workers have little rights.

While reason (A) above is transparent the reasons why reputable companies resort to this is because it is getting harder and harder to keep profits at an acceptable level using 1st world labor.
How often do you hear ignorant customers say made in China brand B is cheaper than A it will do the same job why should I spend a couple of extra dollars on A (and yes some people are cheapskates it does amount to a couple of dollars in a lot of cases.) People don't give a hoot when they buy crap (they are ignorant they don't even know the difference) People flock to the lower price tag of garbage products advertised to be just as good and the makers of 1st world quality products take big hits. This has forced quality manufacturers to go overseas to make acceptable profits. That has raised the bar quality wise of imported products we are approaching a time when imported products (brand B) in most cases may indeed be just as good and this is bad for us.



"I have not ever listened to an ipod in my life, but I do hear things about them breaking all the time and only lasting a few years."

I have, ipods are great products, they hold a lot in a very small package. Sadly, like all electronics, if they were made here the price would be through the roof and nobody would buy them.

"Have I ever heard of Trek bicycles? No. But a quick google search turned up a recall of Trek bikes made in Taiwan on the first page of results. As you can see here:

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml09/09224.html

It says the manufacturer of the recalled bikes is "JD Components, of Taiwan". I bet Trek's US made bikes, if they have any, haven't been recalled."

I have a Trek bike it's great and it's not made here. Unfortunately bikes these days from Taiwan are quality.

"@ The Deacon. I could write in the style of Charles Dickens too if I wanted, that doesn't make you right. Underneath all your florid language there's one simple accusation. You're saying I'm ignorant for believing products made in Taiwan are crap, when in fact, the products coming out of there usually are substandard and it's a common sense observation. That makes me the opposite of ignorant, and it makes you someone who's pulling the wool over their own eyes because you don't want to believe a company you're a big fan and collector of could ever put profit over quality sometimes."

That is half true the issue is not quality as much anymore since they have evolved. Companies that rely on quality to sell their products tend to maintain those standards.
The issue is human rights. Until people start caring that thousands of Americans and other 1st world workers are going to get fired due to these jobs being shipped overseas where people work in conditions of indentured servitude (and they will when they get fired) things will not change.
It seems we have lost focus of the real issue and that is SLAVERY IS WRONG if this keeps happening we will lose most of our ability to manufacture products in house using our own skilled labor and become dependent on out sourced labor (this could be a serious security issue in war)


Someone wrote

" When it comes to more "reputable" companies like Spyderco, I don't care one bit where the knife has been made because I know that it will be top quality. Just my 2 cents though."

Top quality or not I DO CARE a lot more than a bit where it is made and how it was achieved which by the way finding out seems to be quite a task to accomplish these days. Other than the legally required country of origin information (which they tried to change to law to make it a non-requirement) I have no idea what kind of labor ethics are employed by these overseas factories as well as the who, what, and the where concerning these factories. They are for the most part anonymous. That makes me uncomfortable as I would stop purchasing any products that I find to be manufactured using slavery, indentured servitude, or any type of human rights abuse.
Rather than advocate ignorance I would like to see who is making them, where they are made, and how they are made. If they are proud of their craftmanship and practices why don't they hold tours of their factories and encourage questions by all interested.

One problem I see is the corporations have established themselves world wide (perhaps they always have) the union needs to do likewise. That would level the playing field.

So no James0723 you are not totally off track you seem to have more of an idea what is going on than some of these corporate kissasses that have been flaming you
 
greater said:
James0723 wrote

" I'm not saying you're lying about the s30v. But, from watching documentaries on sweatshops and factories in China and places, and also seeing all the recalled products from there, I know the factory owners in those countries aren't the most scrupulous people."

This I believe since China is known to have a big corruption problem.

"So what I would seriously wonder is if some of them might be appropriating the s30v steel to sell on their own"

It wouldn't surprise me, is there any proof ?(not saying your wrong)

"and replacing it with cheaper counterfeit steel blades that they make themselves."

That would be unlikely if the overseeing parties (Spyderco and Spyderco customers) are vigilant in checking quality. It would not go unnoticed for very long and the relationship with the factory would be a very short one after that.

"Furthermore I suspect that when you take a tour of the factories over there they make an effort to make it look a lot nicer than usual, and make it look like the employees are being treated better than they are. As far as having cell phones, cell phones can be had for very cheap these days, many in a range of $15 - $30 so that doesn't mean much."

I couldn't agree with you more

" Also, living in housing provided by the factory with "security" sounds a lot like indentured servitude to me."

It sure does and it sucks. Secured living facilities owned by your employer on company property is more times than not a very bad sign. It should raise alarms, it is at the very least a conflict of interests against employee empowerment to safeguard their rights and at the very most a form of indentured servitude as you say.

"First world countries almost always produce better merchandise, even if it's more expensive. Unless a country is a true first world country (not just in the process of getting to be first world), I don't trust their products."

That was true at one time and kept things in check as their were always those who insisted on quality, but unfortunately now as more reputable US and other companies move their technologies overseas to exploit the cheaper labor, the products they are producing now rival and are sometimes outright better than the same type of products from first world countries. I have been amazed at the quality of some of these lower cost products (knives in my case.) But one thing you can be sure of is somebody is paying for that quality product whether it be by sweat, blood, or tears.

"In thinking a long the lines of a brand, brands are not static, they change over the years. It's not all that uncommon for brands to lose their reputations for quality."

A) Yes some companies for some reason or another (they may have been purchased by another company) choose to pull a con game on their customers and sell utter dirt cheap crap stamped with the logo/name of what was once a reputable company.
B) Others choose to maintain quality (Spyderco, Benchmade, Cold Steel, and others) while exploiting the cheap labor in countries where workers have little rights.

While reason (A) above is transparent the reasons why reputable companies resort to this is because it is getting harder and harder to keep profits at an acceptable level using 1st world labor.
How often do you hear ignorant customers say made in China brand B is cheaper than A it will do the same job why should I spend a couple of extra dollars on A (and yes some people are cheapskates it does amount to a couple of dollars in a lot of cases.) People don't give a hoot when they buy crap (they are ignorant they don't even know the difference) People flock to the lower price tag of garbage products advertised to be just as good and the makers of 1st world quality products take big hits. This has forced quality manufacturers to go overseas to make acceptable profits. That has raised the bar quality wise of imported products we are approaching a time when imported products (brand B) in most cases may indeed be just as good and this is bad for us.



"I have not ever listened to an ipod in my life, but I do hear things about them breaking all the time and only lasting a few years."

I have, ipods are great products, they hold a lot in a very small package. Sadly, like all electronics, if they were made here the price would be through the roof and nobody would buy them.

"Have I ever heard of Trek bicycles? No. But a quick google search turned up a recall of Trek bikes made in Taiwan on the first page of results. As you can see here:

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml09/09224.html

It says the manufacturer of the recalled bikes is "JD Components, of Taiwan". I bet Trek's US made bikes, if they have any, haven't been recalled."

I have a Trek bike it's great and it's not made here. Unfortunately bikes these days from Taiwan are quality.

"@ The Deacon. I could write in the style of Charles Dickens too if I wanted, that doesn't make you right. Underneath all your florid language there's one simple accusation. You're saying I'm ignorant for believing products made in Taiwan are crap, when in fact, the products coming out of there usually are substandard and it's a common sense observation. That makes me the opposite of ignorant, and it makes you someone who's pulling the wool over their own eyes because you don't want to believe a company you're a big fan and collector of could ever put profit over quality sometimes."

That is half true the issue is not quality as much anymore since they have evolved. Companies that rely on quality to sell their products tend to maintain those standards.
The issue is human rights. Until people start caring that thousands of Americans and other 1st world workers are going to get fired due to these jobs being shipped overseas where people work in conditions of indentured servitude (and they will when they get fired) things will not change.
It seems we have lost focus of the real issue and that is SLAVERY IS WRONG if this keeps happening we will lose most of our ability to manufacture products in house using our own skilled labor and become dependent on out sourced labor (this could be a serious security issue in war)


Someone wrote

" When it comes to more "reputable" companies like Spyderco, I don't care one bit where the knife has been made because I know that it will be top quality. Just my 2 cents though."

Top quality or not I DO CARE a lot more than a bit where it is made and how it was achieved which by the way finding out seems to be quite a task to accomplish these days. Other than the legally required country of origin information (which they tried to change to law to make it a non-requirement) I have no idea what kind of labor ethics are employed by these overseas factories as well as the who, what, and the where concerning these factories. They are for the most part anonymous. That makes me uncomfortable as I would stop purchasing any products that I find to be manufactured using slavery, indentured servitude, or any type of human rights abuse.
Rather than advocate ignorance I would like to see who is making them, where they are made, and how they are made. If they are proud of their craftmanship and practices why don't they hold tours of their factories and encourage questions by all interested.

One problem I see is the corporations have established themselves world wide (perhaps they always have) the union needs to do likewise. That would level the playing field.

So no James0723 you are not totally off track you seem to have more of an idea what is going on than some of these corporate kissasses that have been flaming you
Click to expand...
Great reply! :thumbup:
 
The Deacon said:
For that, I suppose, we should be thankful, better 10,000+ Indians dead in Bhopal than in the area around a Union Carbide plant here.
Click to expand...

That way of thinking is exactly why many third world countries hate America.
The attitude that their lives are less important and valuable than ours.
I have friends that were adopted as babies from India and they are warm wonderful human beings. Their lives are not any less important than mine and neither are the ones still living in the country they came from. Just because we are born in the USA does not make us superior.
 
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