What are your next "mad scientist" sharpening experiments?

[Jason B.]

It's a good number, right in the middle of 100 and 200

I don't let too many options confuse me (well, I try) and this stone seemed like a decent one. Fast cutting and no loading. I'm sure I could have made a better choice but mistakes must be made first.

 

[Harpoon1]

Ah, " right in the middle ". Of course! :thumbup:

It's already "out of stock" at CKTG. Looks like there was no "mistake" made there.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I'm going to try stropping on leather with my DMT Aligner. After finishing on my finest stone, I'll simply pull the rod out of the angle guide & carefully strop at that angle, letting the outside of the angle guide eye drag gently on the strop. That extra 1/16th or whatever of plastic will provide for the slight microbevel I'm after & keep me from botching my hard-earned edge. Turning the blade clamp knob back can even reduce that microbevel a bit if I need to. I haven't tried this yet but I'll be dulling a knife soon enough.

The Aligner clamp is quite handy for stropping. I've used mine after re-bevelling with Dia-Folds, to 'bench strop' on a relatively thick piece of balsa with either Simichrome or DMT Dia-Paste. Works very well.

 

[thombrogan]

Great stuff, HH! And can't wait to hear how Aligner-aided stropping works, JPH77!

HeavyHanded,

When comparing your 4K + newsprint edge to your 4K + Sears white buffing compound edge, how was the Sears edge better?

 

[flatface77]

The Aligner clamp is quite handy for stropping. I've used mine after re-bevelling with Dia-Folds, to 'bench strop' on a relatively thick piece of balsa with either Simichrome or DMT Dia-Paste. Works very well.

I'm glad to hear that. After the idea struck me I felt so stupid for having not thought of it much sooner. It seems so obvious.

I usually finish on the 8000 grit DMT so I'm planning on just trying maybe 10 passes or so on unloaded leather to see what happens. I'm hoping nothing happens (which would mean I have no burr or wire coming off that stone). If I don't see a difference I'm moving to Mother's Mag polish, followed by plain leather. What's the story on newsprint? I keep hearing it mentioned in passing.

 

[thombrogan]

The ink is a microfine abrasive. So is the glossy coating on magazine and telephone book covers (and a big thanks to Zeasor for pointing it out).

BTW,

How did you Flitz your Vaquero to satiny goodness? As one might be headed my way, I'm hoping to do the same.

 

[Jason B.]

I'm glad to hear that. After the idea struck me I felt so stupid for having not thought of it much sooner. It seems so obvious.

I usually finish on the 8000 grit DMT so I'm planning on just trying maybe 10 passes or so on unloaded leather to see what happens. I'm hoping nothing happens (which would mean I have no burr or wire coming off that stone). If I don't see a difference I'm moving to Mother's Mag polish, followed by plain leather. What's the story on newsprint? I keep hearing it mentioned in passing.

FYI, 1/2in balsa wood is the same thickness as a DMT plate with rubber feet attached. You will also improve upon the edge no matter how well its finished on the plate, stropping on bare leather is still a abrasive action.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Great stuff, HH! And can't wait to hear how Aligner-aided stropping works, JPH77!

HeavyHanded,

When comparing your 4K + newsprint edge to your 4K + Sears white buffing compound edge, how was the Sears edge better?

It's not quite obvious in the pics, but if you really take a good look you'll notice there are the larger grind troughs with both edges and the apex appears to have approx the same amount of variation in peak and line. Using the compound with a stone backing seems to have induced the smaller grind tracks to make it all the way to the apex. Coming off the stone and cleaned up on newspaper there's a bit of polish to the very apex. I've noticed this on virtually all edges and certainly on all edges that have been stropped on leather or balsa - the very apex is devoid of microtexture, even if it has larger variations up to the apex.

The Sears edge won't whittle a hair, but could cut a paper towel held in one hand and cut as one would a sheet of newspaper. I've gotten edges to saw cut a newspaper (very coarse), or start a cut but slip after an inch or so (hair whittling). Getting one that will start and finish with a half draw, half push cut and come out the other end cleanly is not a common edge type in my experience. Certainly there are other ways to create an edge like this, but it's the first time I've pulled it off and it was easy using this method.

 

[David Martin]

Yes, your right. I have to go up to 6-800g inorder to get an edge that will cut papertowel like that. Still, I normally don't sharpen that high it was just for grins. DM

 

[HeavyHanded]

The ink is a microfine abrasive. So is the glossy coating on magazine and telephone book covers (and a big thanks to Zeasor for pointing it out).

The clay coating on gloss paper has all manner of silicates and other minerals. Uncoated paper has a fair amount of silicates as well. It will impart a polish by itself but takes a lot longer. I'd love to know more about the specific particles in printing ink that comprise the pigments - these are probably proprietary and cover a wide range from man made to natural sources. I've been in printing for over 15 years and don't have more than a general notion.

From my latest I'm gaining a real appreciation for how compound on newspaper can work. Using the same Sears white compound on paper laid over the rough side of a SiC stone I'm getting very different edge effects from the fine side. I'm still trying to get a good handle on what's going on beyond the obvious. The edge coming off of a 1200 grit King waterstone, stropped on white compound over the coarse side of a SIC stone yields and edge that will also cut freely held paper towel but with a bit more of a draw. It will likewise cut TP but shows a bit more hitching as it does so. The real treat is that these edges show zero evidence of rounding or having all their grind texture softened - to the contrary it will amplify the grind texture or create new if the old has been polished off. I've been hitting a couple of knives pretty hard with this method and they keep responding without any need to go back to the stone for a freshening.

 

[flatface77]

The ink is a microfine abrasive. So is the glossy coating on magazine and telephone book covers (and a big thanks to Zeasor for pointing it out).

BTW,

How did you Flitz your Vaquero to satiny goodness? As one might be headed my way, I'm hoping to do the same.

Just take it apart & hit the blade & bar with Flitz until you get to the finish you want. Its a bit faster to use sandpaper first but you don't want to overshoot the mark like I recently did & end up with a mirror finish. The CS Voyagers's stonewash finish polishes off pretty easily.

 

[flatface77]

FYI, 1/2in balsa wood is the same thickness as a DMT plate with rubber feet attached. You will also improve upon the edge no matter how well its finished on the plate, stropping on bare leather is still a abrasive action.

I use the Aligner kit with it's stones, so they're much thinner than the regular DMT stones. But I'll just get a big piece of balsa wood & lay it down on my desk & try to use the angle guide on top of it. I get what is, to me, a very fine edge off of my 8000 grit, so I'm really looking forward to the next level. From what I read here I have a few steps in front of me beyond what I'm achieving now off the plates.
I'll start with the newsprint this weekend.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I use the Aligner kit with it's stones, so they're much thinner than the regular DMT stones. But I'll just get a big piece of balsa wood & lay it down on my desk. I get what is, to me, a very fine edge off of my 8000 grit, so I'm really looking forward to the next level. From what I read here I have a few steps in front of me beyond what I'm achieving now off the plates.
I'll start with the newsprint this weekend.

The advantage of using the Aligner clamp on the balsa strop is consistency, from pass-to-pass. It eliminates the variability in angle, which inevitably rounds off an edge. Even if the set angle won't be exactly the same as with the Aligner's hones (due to differences in thickness, and the slightly different manner of using the clamp with the balsa strop), just maintaining a consistent angle will produce good or even excellent results. I just 'eye-balled' the angle with my Aligner clamp on the balsa, just to make sure the edge itself was flush to the strop (a magnifier helps with this, in the setup). If the angle is too low, you'll just miss the edge, without harming it. If the angle is perfectly flush on the bevel, fantastic. And if it's slightly elevated, then you're effectively 'stropping' a very consistent micro bevel on it. Still very good, so long as the pressure is maintained very light.

You can use the clamp's angle-adjusting arms, combined with 'shimming' under your balsa block, if need be, to get the edge flush (or nearly so) on the balsa. An easy and very finely-adjustable way to 'shim' the block would be to stack paper under it. Just add or remove sheets to adjust the height of the shim.

 

[flatface77]

The advantage of using the Aligner clamp on the balsa strop is consistency, from pass-to-pass. It eliminates the variability in angle, which inevitably rounds off an edge. Even if the set angle won't be exactly the same as with the Aligner's hones (due to differences in thickness, and the slightly different manner of using the clamp with the balsa strop), just maintaining a consistent angle will produce good or even excellent results. I just 'eye-balled' the angle with my Aligner clamp on the balsa, just to make sure the edge itself was flush to the strop (a magnifier helps with this, in the setup). If the angle is too low, you'll just miss the edge, without harming it. If the angle is perfectly flush on the bevel, fantastic. And if it's slightly elevated, then you're effectively 'stropping' a very consistent micro bevel on it. Still very good, so long as the pressure is maintained very light.

You can use the clamp's angle-adjusting arms, combined with 'shimming' under your balsa block, if need be, to get the edge flush (or nearly so) on the balsa. An easy and very finely-adjustable way to 'shim' the block would be to stack paper under it. Just add or remove sheets to adjust the height of the shim.

Thanks. I'm scavenging for newsprint at present but will be sourcing balsa wood soon. Another trick I've found with the Aligner clamp is to use the tension knob to make slight adjustments within my set angle. When I finish on my last stone I give the knob a half-turn or so to increase the angle a tiny bit & micro-bevel for a few light passes.

With the stropping I was planning to reduce the tension with the knob a half-turn to roughly make up for the thickness the outside of the angle guide's eye adds. Not that that extra 16th or so of a micro-bevel would hurt, but this will minimize it even further.

What is the advantage of balsa wood over other stropping mediums?

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Thanks. I'm scavenging for newsprint at present but will be sourcing balsa wood soon. Another trick I've found with the Aligner clamp is to use the tension knob to make slight adjustments within my set angle. When I finish on my last stone I give the knob a half-turn or so to increase the angle a tiny bit & micro-bevel for a few light passes.

With the stropping I was planning to reduce the tension with the knob a half-turn to roughly make up for the thickness the outside of the angle guide's eye adds. Not that that extra 16th or so of a micro-bevel would hurt, but this will minimize it even further.

What is the advantage of balsa wood over other stropping mediums?

The reason I like it, is it's a bit more tolerant to using a tad more pressure, without 'rolling' around the edge like leather or other softer media will do. I also like how it really gives the compound a firm 'bed' to dig into and hold. The evidence of that is in how much more aggressively the compound removes metal, when used on balsa. I applied my compounds (Simichrome polish, and 1 micron diamond paste) to both leather and balsa, when first trying the balsa out. The balsa strop worked much faster than the leather, used with identical compound. Balsa with compound will blacken quickly, which is the definitive proof of how fast it's working. Combine that with it's resistance to rounding over the edge at heavier pressure, and it can produce some excellent edges fast. To add the icing to the cake, so to speak, it's very easy to refresh a balsa strop. Just sand the black stuff off (it's soft wood, so that goes very quickly), and re-apply the compound. My balsa blocks are rather thick, at ~1.5" or more, so I can sand & refresh them for a long time, before I'll have to replace them.

 

[flatface77]

Just resharpened my wife's S90V Para 2. She must've somehow knew of my plans & broke down a ton of boxes & sharpened pencils setting up at the kid's wrestling tourney.

I went through the DMT Aligner stones up to the 8000 XXF & then moved to a wood backed synthetic strop I have loaded with aluminum oxide powder. I left the angle guide on & backed off a half-turn on the blade tension clamp to make the inevitable microbevel slightly smaller. I held the strop in my hand & made roughly 20 alternating passes with just the weight of the blade. It push-cuts a bit better & whittles hair with less effort than before. It seems to be an improvement over my usual microbevel-off-the-last-stone finish. It was a bit rushed so I'm going to have at a few more blades & take more time tomorrow.

 

[thombrogan]

HeavyHanded,

Thanks much for your explanation. Went back to your pictures and tried reading between the lines (first time I've said that in decades without it being a middle finger joke) and think I see what you're saying. Also, having read Obsessed with Edges' comments to jeffphansen77 about the joys of balsa, it sounds like compound-loaded balsa and compound-laden newsprint are essentially doing the same job. Well now I'm inclined to rip the lapping film off my crappy homemade balsa strops and try 'em with buffing compounds on hand.

 

[Ben Dover]

Well, I've tested half a dozen folding knives on my barber strop so far. It took quite a bit of time and testing to the thickness of the plastic clips and electrician's tape on the spine adjusted, but I've stropped these on the hanging strop, and there has been a very definite improvement in their cutting capabilities.

Let me say though, that if you're contemplating using this procedure, good record keeping is critical.

 

[Harpoon1]

It's a good number, right in the middle of 100 and 200

I don't let too many options confuse me (well, I try) and this stone seemed like a decent one. Fast cutting and no loading. I'm sure I could have made a better choice but mistakes must be made first.

Well, when can we expect any reports on the new stone? Or are you just going to just leave us hanging?

I'll go first!

Early thoughts on the "small" Ume 1K. The stone is much more porous than I realized from the video. Needs a good soaking and constant re-hydrating while sharpening. It is however nice and hard (even the regular version), which I like for leading edge strokes with small narrow bevels. While it's not as muddy as the Arashiyama 1K, nor as soft. I like it for it's firm feed back though and quick cutting ability. Still think the Arashiyama 1K is a more pleasant stone to work with. I need to find a large bevel, single or double, laminated kitchen knife "beater" to really bring out the differences between those two stones.

Any ideas on where to find high quality "seconds"?

 

[HeavyHanded]

OK, here are the latest findings. I took my paper as strop backing a bit further and tried some different papers with different abrasives. At this point, my Mora classic has been mercilessly stropped on a ton of grits - varying sizes up to black emery and 600 grit SIC and the the edge was beginning to round off. I took some 80# uncoated cover stock - very rigid and smooth - and wrapped it around my benchstone. The paper is too thick for any surface irregularities of the stone to factor in. Put a miniscule pinch of 600 grit SiC dust on the paper and stropped away with moderate pressure - actually raised a burr. Reduced the burr, flipped the paper inside out and stropped the burr off - no printing ink or compound, just the paper itself and the burr disappeared. Hmmm, edge felt pretty good. Repeated the procedure on a fresh sheet using 1200 grit SiC dust, being a bit more gentle, but still using more pressure than I would dare on a leather strop. Did not see a burr this time around, but could just feel one (I didn't use my loupe at all while doing this test). Stropped on clean paper and holy cow this is one nice edge considering its 100% repaired and reground on a "strop". The first pic is of the stone and paper just in case anyone reading this cannot quite envision what I'm describing. The second pic is at 640x - scale in upper left is 7.7u and the red blob in the center is a single spec of red printing toner (nominal size 5-7 micron, good QC at the factory). I backlight it so I can see how broad the apex is, looks very close to the other pics taken of the same knife so many test whacks ago. This represents the best recovery of an edge without going back to the stone that I've ever accomplished. Its probably not quite as thin across the apex as when it came off the stone, but if so its not far off the mark. Dry-shaving some stubble it catches a bit more, but leaves a surprisingly smooth bit of skin behind with very little irritation.

The SIC dust really likes this application - I imagine I could reuse the same piece of paper for a long time should I care to - just as long as I keep it dry and don't nick it.