What are your next "mad scientist" sharpening experiments?

Pretty cool results, HH. :thumbup:

I have a couple of balsa blocks that I wrapped in printer paper a while back. I was just beginning to try out some 1 micron Dia-Paste at the time, and had some excess paste, wiped off of my leather strop. Didn't want to waste it, so I spread it on some printer paper and wrapped the paper around the block. Did the same with some Simichrome paste on another block. Got a LOT of mileage out of both of them. Very effective, and makes it infinitely simple to refresh the strop, simply by replacing the paper & re-applying compound. As you say, the only thing to watch out for, is nicking or cutting the paper (mine are, but I still use 'em anyway).

Sort of off that topic. I was fiddling around with re-bevelling an 'inexpensive' kitchen cleaver yesterday. It's a 'Barclay Forge', made in Japan, at least 20 - 30 years old. After I'd put a new bevel on it with my Aligner/Dia-Fold setup, I was trying different strops to see which one(s) the 'mystery steel' might respond to. I have a bunch of stuff in cardboard file boxes nearby (I moved a while back, didn't unpack a lot of stuff), and out of the blue, spur-of-the-moment, just reached down and 'stropped' the cleaver blade on the side of of one the boxes. The edge on this thing really popped, in response to that simple cardboard. Even polished the bevel a bit. Tried 2 or 3 other blades (another cheap kitchen knife and paring knife, a Buck 112 in 425M (convexed), and a 1970 Case Peanut in carbon steel). The Buck was probably the least changed, although it did improve slightly. The other kitchen knives showed more improvement, and the Case Peanut did as well. It never ceases to amaze me sometimes, how simple it can be to maintain an edge. Sort of ironic too, in that at least a couple of those boxes contain a lot of expensive sharpening gear, acquired over a lot of years.

Here's a pic of this new-found 'strop' ;) :
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Harpoon1 said:
Well, when can we expect any reports on the new stone? Or are you just going to just leave us hanging?

I'll go first! :D

Early thoughts on the "small" Ume 1K. The stone is much more porous than I realized from the video. Needs a good soaking and constant re-hydrating while sharpening. It is however nice and hard (even the regular version), which I like for leading edge strokes with small narrow bevels. While it's not as muddy as the Arashiyama 1K, nor as soft. I like it for it's firm feed back though and quick cutting ability. Still think the Arashiyama 1K is a more pleasant stone to work with. I need to find a large bevel, single or double, laminated kitchen knife "beater" to really bring out the differences between those two stones.

Any ideas on where to find high quality "seconds"?
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I'm gonna leave ya hanging for a bit :)

I actually had to switch it up to the 120 grit due to the 150 being out of stock. It's waiting for me at home but I'm currently in the mid-west and won't get home till later this week.
 
My latest and greatest - having gotten tired of using different materials to whip up a slurry/mud on my King stones, I decided the only safe, quick, and convenient method was to use some of the stone itself. Not being willing to buy an entire set of replacements just to rub together, I hogged off a 3/8" slice from the end of my stones (and my Chinese 12K for good measure) using a diamond sawsall blade. Ahhh - fast mud creation, no contaminants, no fuss. Shoulda done this months ago.
Not really "mad scientist" stuff, but a little outside the box.
 
I've seen that done with high-end synthetics from Kyoto (like the marbled looking ones the Broida family imports). Looks like the folks doing so are few and far between.

My non-mad experiment was using the platen on my belt sander for the first time since last Summer. Funny how lining up with the belt in a straight line is too much to ask from Harbor Freight. Anyways, adapted to the cockeyed orientation and got a purdy, polished edge. Will probably redo it with an 80 grit belt followed by the leather coated with Flitz in the Summer when I can sharpen outside.
 
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Thought this was the best place to post this on BF, rather than start a new thread. There's good stuff here that someone new might see.

I just rebeveled a Parker Cutlery trapper clip blade down to 7 degrees per side, and finished with a microbevel at 10 dps on a 1000 grit King water stone. Durability testing shows it to be fine so far. Cut up a couple of soda bottles and it still whittles my beard hair.
 
Its a bit early for me to be throwing this in here, but I believe it does qualify for the "Mad Scientist Type" of experiment.

Back story -

I love the edges I get from my waterstones but for a couple of things - mine (Kings, Nortons) don't work as well with some steels as with others, and having to soak them in water/have water handy is sometimes bothersome, esp if touching up an edge or traveling.


Up side, they can be used to maintain an edge at a very high level of performance for a long long time without needing to go back to a grinding operation - simply backhoning on your last stone will keep the edge up to snuf with very little of the gradual rounding produced by most loaded strops, and little or none of the burr formation associated with backhoning on other fixed abrasives. IMHO these stones maintain apex geometry better than stropping on hard wood or MDF.

So I have two issues - not all waterstones work well across the spectrum of steel types, and its not convenient to have a soak and splash bucket handy every time I want to touch up an edge.

My personal all around favorite for sharpening everything is SiC, but the higher grit stones are only available in relatively small sizes, and even then a solid SiC stone at any grit will not have the same characteristics as a finishing waterstone. This leaves me stropping following the fine side of a Norton Crystalon stone - a very good EDU edge but I'd like to have something in the box that can refine it a bit more before stropping, and more importantly, something that can replace the strop for maintaining the edge.

After a lot of looking around I settled on trying out a jointer stone. These are made to sharpen jointer blades, both straight and shaped, in the machine, running at 3000 - 6000 rpm and are typically SiC. They are quite soft by hand sharpening standards, but the ones for carbide blades come very close to a finishing grade waterstone. Jointer stones are color coded - brown is the hardest - the other colors/hardnesses are probably unsuitable for this sort of experiment (I tried a 600 grit blue vitreous bonded one perhaps a year ago and it produced a deeper grind pattern than the fine Crystalon, even with a very light touch- these are not like bench stones). They use a resin bond (though the softer ones use vitreous or resin) that is very porous. Water does not hang around on top even after a soak, and oil sinks right in tho it apears more treatments are beginning to slow absorbtion. They are made to be used dry, and that's how I tested mine tho I did rub a few drops of mineral oil into the surface prior to starting. 500-600 grit is the high end for these items, but when talking about a very foreign (to me) type of stone, I figured it could leave any sort of finish and might not even create a suitable edge by hand. In theory it might have the qualities of a waterstone that make it perform so well as a finishing media - loose abrasive and binder like a strop but with no give and some fixed abrasive underneath the loose material on the surface. In practice it might be a goose egg.

And so, I gave it a try on an edge that had been ground and finished on the fine Crystalon - backhoned on the jointer stone exactly as I would with a waterstone. Could see it leaving metal streaks, had decent feedback, a dozen passes did not produce a burr. I increased pressure and gave it a half dozen passes - a small burr appeared. Another dozen lighter passes and the burr was almost eliminated , a few more and it was essentially gone. The edge wiped hairs off the back of my hand - somewhat more refined than the fine Crystalon and some black compound could produce. Stropped it on some newspaper to finish and lo and behold it would dry shave facial stubble without irritation. Cutting newspaper with it one couldn't tell grain direction. I didn't do any further testing. This is clearly a step up from the fine Crystalon, and very fast to use - scratch pattern similar to a 4000 grit King or perhaps just a touch less refined. Hmmm, an oil based 'waterstone'?


I feel as though I may have finally found a waterstone/strop stand-in that can be used dry or with oil, and being silicon carbide intended for HSS and carbide blades, I anticipate it will work reasonably well on anything out there. Other upside is these are relatively inexpensive - a 9"x 2.5" stone was 20 bucks.

More to follow as I get some additional time in. I'd have taken some pics, but the stone just looks like a dull chocolate brown stone similar to any other.

HH
 
I've been using just stones lately and not much stropping. Kinda a "what if" experiment, what if I only had a stone? It's working out better than expected and I prefer it in some cases.

Heavyhanded, you really need to try some better waterstones it will make a world of difference.
 
I'm glad your working on this dilemma of stropping causing edge convexing. Because of this I do little stropping, instead eliminate the burr thru other means, like your doing from a hard flat stone. This keeps the edge bevel more true. I've looked at the stones you mention and noted they offer good economy. So, I'll be interested to read how your results continue. DM
 
knifenut1013 said:
I've been using just stones lately and not much stropping. Kinda a "what if" experiment, what if I only had a stone? It's working out better than expected and I prefer it in some cases.

Heavyhanded, you really need to try some better waterstones it will make a world of difference.
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I know, I know, but I have a hard time investing in another set. Between the Nortons for tougher steel, and the Kings for plain stuff I get good results, but I want something that handles jobs like my silicon carbide stones. No muss, no getting into it to find out "maybe I should've gone with stone X instead", just strong predictable results every time no matter what other variables - only issues as stated - I don't (didn't) have a good SiC finishing stone, I don't like overreaching with stropping compounds to get the more refined edge (don't really care for stropping at all except on plain paper), and I really appreciate the specific edge qualities I get from a waterstone. The waterstones that can tackle the tougher steels are rather expensive and perhaps still don't produce a consistent edge across a wide range of steels in the way silicon carbide can (?). I'm trying to simplify here before I get lost amid a heap of gear...:confused:

Plus I prefer working with oil over water (believe it or not). I AM impressed at how fast this jointing stone works and how similar the edge to a JWS.

And of course I love experimenting!

BTW, are you using specific stones for the final edge or trying a full range of your collection? If the latter, are you noticing any trends?
 
I know of a few stones that would do as well as sic if not better, my 1k Nubatama for example cuts faster and leaves a finer edge while being reasonably priced. When it gets to a certain point though not all steels should be sharpened on the same abrasive. I have some good waterstones but I wouldn't want to try sharpening S90V with them.

Trends like?

Stainless vs carbon?

I get trends in which stone I like to finish with that week :D I really like Aoto stones though, probably my favorite edge finish.
 
knifenut1013 said:
I know of a few stones that would do as well as sic if not better, my 1k Nubatama for example cuts faster and leaves a finer edge while being reasonably priced. When it gets to a certain point though not all steels should be sharpened on the same abrasive. I have some good waterstones but I wouldn't want to try sharpening S90V with them.

Trends like?

Stainless vs carbon?

I get trends in which stone I like to finish with that week :D I really like Aoto stones though, probably my favorite edge finish.
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I was curious if you were using other stone types as a finisher or just the waterstones?

Nubatama - Hmmm. I've also read good things about the Bester ceramic stones using green SiC, but again that's at the 1000 grit stone. Not sure what the finishing stone uses for abrasive.

The jointer stone put a heck of an edge on my EKA H8 - again, very much in the neighborhood of 3- 4000 grit JIS. That puts me in a good spot - strop on newspaper for EDU or use some Flexcut Gold for a more polished edge on the choppers and push cutters. Starting to really hold onto a few drops of oil now.
 
The besters are still entry level stones, the Nubatama stones are professional grade stones and perform accordingly. Your reaching a point where your skill is starting to outclass the tools you are using. The good news is that they make tools to complement your abilities its just that they are not budget friendly options.

I like muddy stones and a medium to fine edge type so Aoto style stones are some of my favorite to finish a edge with. You seem like although you don't mind a little mud you would rather have a splash-n-go fast cutting stone in the medium to fine grit range. The shapton pro stones might be worth the look in that case.

P.S. mainly waterstones with diamond for the high wear steels.
 
what i have just started playing around with lately is this... (cheating yes i know) I mounted mouse pad to my WEPS paddles and put PSA lapping film on it... now I have a precise way to convex my edges =) Only thing I am running into is removing the burr because I liek to remove the burr w/ the last grit i used. In this case, when I create the burr using some pressure, it dents the mouse pad in and "wraps" around the edge creating the convex edge itself, but when I go to remove it and use lighter pressure, it doesn't hit the very edge of the edge. I think i'll just increase the angle a few degrees... I have only used 45um lapping film so far as I like a toothy edge.
 
razor-edge-knives said:
what i have just started playing around with lately is this... (cheating yes i know) I mounted mouse pad to my WEPS paddles and put PSA lapping film on it... now I have a precise way to convex my edges =) Only thing I am running into is removing the burr because I liek to remove the burr w/ the last grit i used. In this case, when I create the burr using some pressure, it dents the mouse pad in and "wraps" around the edge creating the convex edge itself, but when I go to remove it and use lighter pressure, it doesn't hit the very edge of the edge. I think i'll just increase the angle a few degrees... I have only used 45um lapping film so far as I like a toothy edge.
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Nothing wrong with finding new ways to do something, so maybe its just me, but I think convexing with a guides system kinda defeats the simplisity of convex sharpening.
 
knifenut1013 said:
The besters are still entry level stones, the Nubatama stones are professional grade stones and perform accordingly. Your reaching a point where your skill is starting to outclass the tools you are using. The good news is that they make tools to complement your abilities its just that they are not budget friendly options.

I like muddy stones and a medium to fine edge type so Aoto style stones are some of my favorite to finish a edge with. You seem like although you don't mind a little mud you would rather have a splash-n-go fast cutting stone in the medium to fine grit range. The shapton pro stones might be worth the look in that case.

P.S. mainly waterstones with diamond for the high wear steels.
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Thanks for the recommendations - at some point I'll delve into the better JWS but for now I'm aiming at cheap and simple (emphasis on cheap - my budget is drum head tight and I still want to afford the odd knife/chopper purchase). FWIW now that I've done a few knives on this stone (BTW, its a Tyrolit jointer stone - 500 grit SiC 'Euro stone' resin bond) I'm feeling very good about rolling the dice this time. An Aoto stone is normally in the 2000 grit JIS range? That's just about my sweet spot too and this thing seems to put it right in the ballpark. As I work with it the results seem quite consistent - I'll get back with any further observations. Wicked sticky with the three-finger test and still exhibits good refinement. So far its a perfect stand-in for a medium fine finishing waterstone, identical technique and all. Did I mention it only runs 20 bucks?;)
 
Right around 2k is where most sit but they all start a little coarser and finish a little finer. My two favorite are the Nubatama bamboo 1200 and Naniwa 2k green brick though I like the 1200 better if I'm stopping at that stone. The green brick works better as a pre-polisher. I'd recommend the 1200 bamboo if you wanted to make a single purchase.
 
knifenut1013 said:
P.S. mainly waterstones with diamond for the high wear steels.
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Which waterstone are you refering to - is it Nubatama Bamboo? I definitely want to get my hand on these type of waterstone :thumbup:

Edit: Doh! Please ignore my question, I misread your statement knifenut. I made a few diamond whetstones (dry waterstone if it makes sense) but the cost is too high, so I was eager for a cheaper already made waterstone with diamond abrasive.
 
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The Bamboo and my arashiyama stones, been using the 1200 bamboo a lot lately but just got the 1k gold and 5k so I've been testing those out. Not much to dislike so far :)
 
Have been doing some interesting (to me) tinkering and thought I'd share. Was doing a lot of thinking about the paper wheels for stropping and final finishing, and how many have concluded they work better than a powered leather belt or wheel. This says a lot. Not only do they share the same application of speed, but they're similar in density and conformability - or are they?

I took a guess (later confirmed) that they're made of many sheets of paper laminated together like a piece of plywood, with the paper grain going in all different directions. This means that any point in the rotation, many of the sheets will be oriented grain long - the fibers in the paper point outward. Think of like a book, stand it on its end (grain arranged lengthwise) and it could hold your weight, put it on its spine (grain short) and is much more likely to fold. Lay it flat and it will deflect a bit. So the paper wheels might be more rigid, yet still allow good adhesion of compound, and if they do deflect, its going to be sideways somewhat - far less deflection and spread out over a larger area - than if it collapsed into itself either grain short, or flat, like a paper around a stone (hope I'm making myself clear). Not a huge difference, but it should be noticeable.

Well, working in a print shop and having paper around, I whipped up a couple to try, both plain and with some compound. Cut some regular copy paper (20# bond) across the grain (like the book analogy) and clamped them between two pieces of wood. It works very well. I also discovered by accident that if you scrape a piece of hacksaw blade lengthwise (was removing some compound), the sheets will expand at the edge. Oddly this seems to make the stropping surface even more firm. A simple clamp made from a few pieces of scrap, and old book, and some work with a saw and anyone can make one of these. As said, works great whether with compound or plain.


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I have also been doing some more with stropping and lapping on hardwood. This is really versatile and very effective. I got the idea from the member (did a search but couldnt come up with his name - owe a debt of gratitude - this is well worth reading several times) who posted this link:

http://bosq.home.xs4all.nl/info 20m/grinding_and_honing_part_1.pdf

and began to wonder - people wouldn't have done/do it if it didn't work, and many use balsa, MDF, and other woods to strop, maybe its more useful than that? Made some oak test pieces cut to 2x8" so they are same size as my combination stones. Used 18 and 32 TPI hacksaw blades, scraped along the grain to create lengthwise grooves (did this as the compound rapidly polishes an ungrooved board so smooth it stops working well - carving grooves in it gives the compound a place to pile up and catch). I used the coarser saw blade to make larger grooves for the larger grit, not sure if it makes a difference. I wound up making three boards - one for 220SiC grit, one for the black compound (apprx 20 micron), and one for the Flexcut gold or yellow compound (approx 1 micron).

Applied a generous amount of compound to each board and used a drop of oil to mix up the respective compounds into a light slurry. Initially I only used a trailing motion but after becoming more familiar began using a fore and aft stroke as with a stone, finishing off with some edge trailing and stropping on newspaper and later on my 'paperwheel' hand strop. The edge does catch on the wood from time to time when using the finer compound, but not a deal breaker. Results were very promising. Used the Norton silicon carbide stone to set up the edge, and advanced to the black compound on oak, then to Flexcut on oak. Using it edge leading only would probably work poorly, at some point you'd have to finish with a bunch of edge trailing for best results. And of course one could just use it edge trailing as an aggressive strop if you were coming off a finer stone. In my case I wanted to see how well it would work in place of a finer stone.

What I found very interesting is how well it worked. Was less aggressive than a conventional stone, removes less metal overall, yet refines a freshly ground medium edge very quickly. I haven't tried to use a full progression with only this method, starting with 220 grit and up, the combination stone is very simple and fast to get one up to a good jump-off point so why bother - some day soon I will anyway. The swarf laden compound is simply wiped off after you finish. Edges coming off the black compound were quite good, somewhere around a 1200-2000 grit JWS -somewhat toothy yet could crosscut newspaper easily and shave arm hair no problem. Edges coming off the fine compound could readily tree-top leg hair, were still aggressive enough to cut across my finger print when checking for three finger sticky with light pressure - in the range of a 6k JWS.

This does require a bit of finesse when it comes to mixing the compound, too thick and it won't have enough mobility to easily remove the burr, too thin and it will grind/lap/strop very slowly and again, have trouble removing the burr. Doesn't take much tinkering to get a feel for what works. For touching up an edge a bit of edge trailing with light pressure seems to do it well, just as one would on any hard stropping surface. Finishing with the paper strop really tops it off nicely. Yet another alternative for improving and maintaining an edge. Will be studying these edges closely to see how they hold up to this for a maintenance scheme. My goal is to indefinitely maintain the exact same edge characteristics every time with a minimum of steel removed and time (and money) spent. This uses very little compound per application (far more than a simple stropping on leather or paper, but a block will still last many moons...).

The pics show maple for the boards, I've since switched to red oak - the larger grain pattern seems to work better for this method - grabs the compound better. I also use more compound than what the pics show - rub on enough that it doesn't readily take any more, then add one or maybe two small drops of mineral oil to mix it all up and make it somewhat mobile. When working its easy to visually verify exactly where you are on the bevel angle by looking at how the slurry trails off the edge and how it builds up on the opposite side if using a bit of edge leading.

Go slow,
HH

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