What defines a fighter?

[RogerP]

I would definitely want a guard on a fighter and preferably a double guard. Especially since I don't see the "upside" to not having one?

Though you demonstrate very well how much the hand is left exposed by even a very well executed double guard, it could still be the difference between getting a very nasty cut and actually loosing a couple fingers or receiving tendon damage leaving the strong "knife hand" useless.

If actually using a fighter for it's intended purpose I would want every advantage possible against my opponent. Yes, a guard could very well factor into whose the last man standing.

1) The upside of not having one? There isn't one that I can see. And as I said, I'd rather have one. But that wasn't the question I posed. I asked whether a knife can properly be described as a fighter if it doesn't have a guard. I would say the answer is yes, even though I prefer a guard on a traditional Western fighter.

2) In terms of defensive protection, while I fully admit I have no knife-fighting experience, I think the odds of an opponent's blade striking the guard and not coming into contact with any portion of my exposed hand are about as remote as my winning the lottery. Think about it - if your opponent was TRYING to hit your guard, he'd probably miss. Guys have missed much larger targets in the heat of cutting competition pressure where nobody's life was at stake. It would be the most massive fluke that his blade would hit your guard even if he were aiming for it.

And if his goal is to disarm you (as Coop quite sensibly points out) why would he be aiming for that tiny area around the guard, when he's got the whole rest of your hand - not to mention your wrist and forearm - to aim at?

Again - I'm not saying there is no element of defensive protection - just trying to put the degree of defensive protection in context.

And if guards are perceived as so essential to a fighting knife design, I can't help but wonder why are they all but completely absent from the great landscape of tactical folders?

Roger

 

[RogerP]

Roger, I think mine and Coop's idea of what the primary function of a guard should be is very different to yours.

IMO it should function to stop your hand from slipping onto the blade and help you to produce more force when thrusting.

The defensive purposes of the guard are fairly negligible, like you say most of the hand is still exposed.

Agreed - on a knife designed for thrusting, a guard is certainly of assistance in performing that function.

My comments were directed to the defensive benefits of the guard, as raised by Coop, Jon, Kevin and others.

Roger

 

[KamSingh]

Agreed - on a knife designed for thrusting, a guard is certainly of assistance in performing that function.

My comments were directed to the defensive benefits of the guard, as raised by Coop, Jon, Kevin and others.

Roger

OK, cool, I guess we are on the same track then.

 

[dbl-edge]

Gentlemen,

Here are some of my points:

I spent a good deal of time discussing knives with the late Butch Winter. He stated that the ONLY pure fighting knife was the left hand dagger. It had a single purpose, to be used in fighting someone else armed with with rapier and left hand dagger. It didn't chop tent poles (or 2x4s), it didn't slice your steak, and it didn't pick out splinters. It did stab well though. All other so called fighters, according to Butch, were derived from bowie like knives that really had primary functions besides fighting.

Like most makers I have my own ideas of what makes a "fighter". Some of the knives I've seen posted here lately would fit into my bowie category, but that's based upon how they look more than anything. Many of the fighters I see, especially those made by the ABS folks, look to me more like bowie blades with smoother integrated handles. I started out 28 years ago as more of a Loveless kind of maker rather than a Moran kind, so my designs went in that more modern direction. In the end, though, they are all pretty cool knives, and I cross over occasionally in my designs.

Kam, the "Yamane Knife", or "Asian Bowie" as Knives 09 calls it, is an example of one of my cross overs. Yes, the blade looks sort of like a bowie and a chopper, mainly because it has a flat ground blade with a false edge. However, it has a balance that's more fighter with less weight out front (at least that's how I recall the knife!). It's on the large side, but it's fairly light out at the end. Most of my sub hilts are double ground, but this knife design fit into my customer's wishes for specific design philosophies, specifically one of my sub hilt fighters with some Persian and Japanese design influences. One of my more challenging orders, but I couldn't have been happier with the results, especially with the Ferry billet of steel!

Lastly, the fighters in this and the associated thread are just outstanding!

David Broadwell

 

[Kevin Jones]

1) The upside of not having one? There isn't one that I can see. And as I said, I'd rather have one. But that wasn't the question I posed. I asked whether a knife can properly be described as a fighter if it doesn't have a guard. I would say the answer is yes, even though I prefer a guard on a traditional Western fighter.

Anyone can properly describe any knife as a fighter (thus our dilemma here). As what's a proper fighter is up to the individual as to what is proper to them. Seems we are in agreement in that from a functional standpoint, why would anyone prefer a "guardless" knife for fighting or self-defense as a guard offers some degree of protection.

2) In terms of defensive protection, while I fully admit I have no knife-fighting experience, I think the odds of an opponent's blade striking the guard and not coming into contact with any portion of my exposed hand are about as remote as my winning the lottery. Think about it - if your opponent was TRYING to hit your guard, he'd probably miss. Guys have missed much larger targets in the heat of cutting competition pressure where nobody's life was at stake. It would be the most massive fluke that his blade would hit your guard even if he were aiming for it.
And if his goal is to disarm you (as Coop quite sensibly points out) why would he be aiming for that tiny area around the guard, when he's got the whole rest of your hand - not to mention your wrist and forearm - to aim at?

Roger, that's silly. Why would anyone be trying to strike your guard in a knife fight. They could very well hit your guard if (as Coop suggested) they were trying to strike your hand. Or as a secondary defensive move one may try to block their opponent's blade with their blade/guard to avoid a more dangerous strike. And as I stated above, no doubt a strike to the guard would most likely also hit the hand, however the guard would to some degree stop/block/slow/divert the opponent's blade thus lessening injury as opposed as to not having a guard at all. One would target their opponent's hand area more so than the forearm because the closer in puts one more at risk against their opponent's blade.

Again - I'm not saying there is no element of defensive protection - just trying to put the degree of defensive protection in context.

And if guards are perceived as so essential to a fighting knife design, I can't help but wonder why are they all but completely absent from the great landscape of tactical folders?

Probably because a guard usually looks a little "strange" on some folders.

Roger

**************

 

[bluejaunte]

An excellent collection of pics in the other thread and some very good points presented here as well.

Just to muddy the waters a bit, I'd like to address the point (ha-ha) of the guard being an aid to stabbing maneuvers.

Keith posted a kard in the other thread (a beauty, BTW--I've been in love with that pattern for a while). As was pointed out, it is a pattern primarily for stabbing. The examples I have seen (both ancient and new interpretations) have only the barest hint of a guard on them. Similarly, the mounted yoroidoshi that I have seen (Japanese tanto designed for stabbing through the chinks in armor) tend to have small guards or guards that are no more prominent than those found on "normal" tanto mounted in anything other than aikuchi style.

How do we reconcile the historical examples of these guardless or nearly-guardless stabbing weapons with the notion that a guard aids in stabbing?

As a final point, I have to wonder about the idea of the "fighter" in general. How many living designers, makers, collectors, or internet experts have actually been in enough knife fights to know what truly works in such a scenario? I'm not talking about people who train in knife fighting, but those who have actually been in (at least one) knife fight?

 

[Keith_H]

I immediately think of the loveless big bear, the Randall model 1, Fairbairn-Sykes, the kabar and other large, sleek, knives that have a controlled grip and often have guards-but not always. Some people do not consider the bowie to be grouped with these, but I do. That was the original design of the bowie, and many still have these characteristics.

Then I think of ones like the gerber guardian, the kukri, puncturing knives with cutting secondary so there isn't a definite fighter, just a knife designed for combat.

 

[Jon Brand]

If you take a look at a knife design like a Crawford Kasper, it might not have a guard but the design of the knife sort of acts like one. Your index finger sinks in pretty far which aids your grip for thrusting, and also keeps your finger inwards making it difficult to be struck. I think its the same concept of a guard. I think an actual guard on a folder would be weird.

 

[RogerP]

Roger, that's silly. Why would anyone be trying to strike your guard in a knife fight. They could very well hit your guard if (as Coop suggested) they were trying to strike your hand. Or as a secondary defensive move one may try to block their opponent's blade with their blade/guard to avoid a more dangerous strike. And as I stated above, no doubt a strike to the guard would most likely also hit the hand, however the guard would to some degree stop/block/slow/divert the opponent's blade thus lessening injury as opposed as to not having a guard at all. One would target their opponent's hand area more so than the forearm because the closer in puts one more at risk against their opponent's blade

Kevin - what's silly is thinking that there is any real probability of a tiny double guard offering any meaningful defensive protection against an opponent's blade.

A strike that hits the guard would also likely hit the hand - agreed. And a disarming strike aimed anywhere in the region of your hand / wrist would most likely not hit the guard at all. Therefore, zero protection.

I can't even begin to imagine the folly of actullay trying to intercept or block an opponent's strike by intercepting it with your own knife. Surely that is the province of Hollywood foolishness.

Roger

 

[Keith Montgomery]

The dropped edge of a blade can be used as a guard. This is the case with many South American knives and mediterranean dirks.

 

[SharpByCoop]

I can't even begin to imagine the folly of actually trying to intercept or block an opponent's strike by intercepting it with your own knife. Surely that is the province of Hollywood foolishness.

And then to take it to it's natural conclusion, I suggest that fighters in general are an exercise in complete futility.

It's all fantasy, isn't it? Well, maybe, but with the intention.

And that's why we like 'em. :thumbup:

Coop

 

[JParanee]

the great landscape of tactical folders?

Roger[/QUOTE]

Tactical folders are not combat or fighting knives they are to cut paracord and look cool cliped to your jeans Only having fun with you folder guy's don't get all worked up.

I think some of you are taking the term guard to literally. in olden times when men fought with steel on steel guards where used to protect the hand from a blade slideing down or strikeing the hand. This is when a guard that has a shape to facilitate catching or trapping a blade or even spanish notches came into fashion. IMHO guards on a modern fighter are there to protect your hand from slideing up on a blade ( ask Rezin Bowie his hand was injured stabbing a bull not knife fighting) and to help index where your cutting edge is and help with manuverability. A modern fighter if it has a guard needs to have a guard that will not snag on clothing when drawn from a concealed place. If it is a full out combat knife to be worn in the open Then size of guard and shape do not matter as much. IMHOa fighter does not need a guard to be a fighter. I like all the style's of fighters of the world especially the sub hilt's and wicked recurve's but to me the most wonderful of them all is the fighting bowie's that are not camp knives but true big fighters like your Hell's Belle"s and El Diablo's. Lets look at those two knves one has a large crazy blade catching guard and even a spanish notch the other a lovely comparitively small guard. None of us would argue that they are fighting bowie's but when it comes to a pure fighter everyone has a different idea. That is why I started the other thread to see great knives and different peoples idea of a pure fighter. And I have enjoyed all this alot thanks to all of you.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Kevin - what's silly is thinking that there is any real probability of a tiny double guard offering any meaningful defensive protection against an opponent's blade.

A strike that hits the guard would also likely hit the hand - agreed. And a disarming strike aimed anywhere in the region of your hand / wrist would most likely not hit the guard at all. Therefore, zero protection.

I can't even begin to imagine the folly of actullay trying to intercept or block an opponent's strike by intercepting it with your own knife. Surely that is the province of Hollywood foolishness.

Roger

Hollywood foolishness You don't think you could intercept or block an opponent's strike with your using a fighter such as the one below. Or one less for that matter? You must have less confidence in your quickness and agility than I do. You look to be quite athletic.

 

[crossada]

realistically you block with the blade not the guard so it is of little concern. for those people who actually carry a bowie on a day to day basis and should find themselves in a knife fight what are the chances of facing another big blade? none imo. most people carry 3 1/2" blade. folders which trapping guards and spanish notches won't work on anyway. why block a blade when you can cut their arm in that range of combat.

now take a trip to a South America where people carry machetes instead of folders and those fighting guards make alot more sense and would work more effectively imo.

 

[RogerP]

Hollywood foolishness You don't think you could intercept or block an opponent's strike with your using a fighter such as the one below. Or one less for that matter?

You may have missed my earlier post on this subject:

I very much doubt that the tiny double guards one sees on a great many fighters - extending mere milimeters beyond the width of the blade - do much to protect the hand. If your hand is wider than the guard, defensive protection really isn't there. And with the exception of D-guards, C-guards or really elongated S-guards, that's almost always the case.

So to answer the question, with a double-guard such as the one I pictured in hand - which is indeed the "classic" double guard of a western fighter, I most unequivocally DON'T have confidence in my ablitity to intercept a razor-sharp incoming blade swung with deadly intent with such a guard. In fact, I very much doubt that anyone could reliably hope to do so. And I think it would be utterly foolhardy to try.

As I said, I am no knife-fighter. But that's just how I see it.

Roger

 

[RogerP]

I think some of you are taking the term guard to literally. in olden times when men fought with steel on steel guards where used to protect the hand from a blade slideing down or strikeing the hand. This is when a guard that has a shape to facilitate catching or trapping a blade or even spanish notches came into fashion. IMHO guards on a modern fighter are there to protect your hand from slideing up on a blade ( ask Rezin Bowie his hand was injured stabbing a bull not knife fighting) and to help index where your cutting edge is and help with manuverability. A modern fighter if it has a guard needs to have a guard that will not snag on clothing when drawn from a concealed place. If it is a full out combat knife to be worn in the open Then size of guard and shape do not matter as much. IMHOa fighter does not need a guard to be a fighter. I like all the style's of fighters of the world especially the sub hilt's and wicked recurve's but to me the most wonderful of them all is the fighting bowie's that are not camp knives but true big fighters like your Hell's Belle"s and El Diablo's. Lets look at those two knves one has a large crazy blade catching guard and even a spanish notch the other a lovely comparitively small guard. None of us would argue that they are fighting bowie's but when it comes to a pure fighter everyone has a different idea. That is why I started the other thread to see great knives and different peoples idea of a pure fighter. And I have enjoyed all this alot thanks to all of you.

Agree completely.

Roger

 

[Kevin Jones]

You may have missed my earlier post on this subject:

So to answer the question, with a double-guard such as the one I pictured in hand - which is indeed the "classic" double guard of a western fighter, I most unequivocally DON'T have confidence in my ablitity to intercept a razor-sharp incoming blade swung with deadly intent with such a guard. In fact, I very much doubt that anyone could reliably hope to do so. And I think it would be utterly foolhardy to try.

As I said, I am no knife-fighter. But that's just how I see it.

Roger

You are right, I did not see your earlier post on "C;D;S" guards etc. Sorry. However I still do believe smaller double guards do offer some degree of protection.

I'm certainly no knife fighter either, but did study fencing about four years in my early-mid 20s. One of my instructors was ex British Intelligence who was proficient in a variety of edge weapon combat. He often referenced similarities and differences between the foil/saber and fighting knives.
Have often though of taking it back up, but just NO time. It's actually quite intense exercise. My friends use to give me a hard time about it.

realistically you block with the blade not the guard so it is of little concern. for those people who actually carry a bowie on a day to day basis and should find themselves in a knife fight what are the chances of facing another big blade? none imo. most people carry 3 1/2" blade. folders which trapping guards and spanish notches won't work on anyway. why block a blade when you can cut their arm in that range of combat.

now take a trip to a South America where people carry machetes instead of folders and those fighting guards make alot more sense and would work more effectively imo.

crossada, you're certainly right that you block with the blade, however if one had an opponent's blade slide down one's own blades than a guard may not seem of little concern.

 

[Doug C]

Does anyone remember, or have any images of, Don's(DH3) guardless fighters.
IIRC, one was in stag.
Don ? Joe ?

Doug

 

[Lorien]

And then to take it to it's natural conclusion, I suggest that fighters in general are an exercise in complete futility.

It's all fantasy, isn't it? Well, maybe, but with the intention.

And that's why we like 'em. :thumbup:

Coop

I think Jim's post bears repeating. Probably the most on the money post so far.
I'm starting to feel like I'm in the Practical Tactical forum

 

[sheathmaker]

I would personally prefer a Bruce Bump guard on my fighter......say .45 cal.

Paul