What do you guys do with your fighting knives?

An Ontario Bagwell Bowie for me. Too soft for utility, too large to look friendly, and it doesn't look like it's meant for cutting watermelons. I keep it in my glass case with my other knives, just cause it's a pure fighter. It's probably also the only non using knife I haven't sold.
 
I agree with N2S about them all being tools. However, before I could buy or afford any handguns I had a AUS8 CS Oyabun with 9" blade under my pillow, inexpensive and effective. It currently lives partially tucked under my matress. I also have a few khukris, which would be more devistating "first strike" tools (but I cant do all the techniques that I have been taught with them).

I dont worry about "tactical carry" knives anymore, my neighborhood has seemed to quiet down. But if for some reason it decides to liven up, I am prepared.
 
Personally, I just look at my Al Mar Warrior. Usualy when looking, think two things, "That would really hurt" and "Wish the .45 hadn't jammed".
 
Originally posted by not2sharp
What do you guys do with your fighting knives?
Which are those? Just about everything has been billed as a fighting knife. Just ask your Federal agent at the security gate if you have any doubts.
n2s
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N2S, There are certain knives with extended guards to protect your hands and they are double blade and are mostly intented to pentrate flesh. Could these be used for utility, yeah, but I think we all know these knives are far from the best choice of utility.
If you use them for heavy duty, the tip will snap off, and you can't really use them for fine work because the guard gets in the way.
So, I really think the def. of a fighting knife is that which provides minimum utility and maximum sheeple fear.
 
CQD Mark III ATAC Fighter - by Duane Dieter
I guess this could be called a fighting knife :) I keep it in the house . Snuged in my bed between the bed and frame . If I hear anything in the house its the first thing I reach for. I only take it out to show friends , But I would say its in use!
 
So, I really think the def. of a fighting knife is that which provides minimum utility and maximum sheeple fear.
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You are defining the person and not the tool. There are plenty of people around that can play in front of you with a nuclear device without engendering fear, and others that would make you nervous if they pick up a plastic spork. I understand what you are trying to say, but I am not wise enough to determine the utility of an item in someone else's hands. People are creative in their use of tools. Give a man a sword and he might use it as a shish kebab. The utility of any item is only limited by our imagination.

n2s

Edited to add:

During the later half of the 19th century, the military establishment (especially in France) became aware of an embarassing problem. They were issuing sword bayonets with rifles and their troops were using the bayonets in camp to chop wood and perform other tasks. Not only was this a misuse of a weapons system, but it was increasing the costs of maintenance; and worse, the worn blades were hindering the appearance of the troops while on parade.

The French responded with the model 1874 edgeless bayonet. Which was designed to, among other things, make it less useful around camp. By WWI they had gone to the almost round model 1888 lebel bayonet.

It took some effort to come up with something which limited utility.
 
An Ontario Bagwell Bowie for me

I've got one of those also, and a few weeks ago I did use it to cut up a watermelon and it works great!

Matter of fact I use bout all my knives in the kitchen as it is one of the few places I can use them that won't scratch the blade...
 
N2S.
I meant in general terms only.
For example. let's say you gave 1000 groups of 10 men out in the woods 10 Helle's Belles and 10 BKT Armageddons each.
Now, I'm not going to say that any given 10 men would choose this knife or that knife.
What I am saying that for the most part the Helle's Belles would see less action the Armageddon in general, and I think it's pretty hard to disagree with such a statement.
Or if you want to look in terms of folders, how about Spyderco Civilian vs a Buck Strider. From our own considerable experience, I think we and YOU are wise enough to develop such a hypothesis.
Although, I certainly respect the fact that you do not with to presume such a thing about a man.
 
The original question was best long fixed blade fighting weapons.

There are certainly many great long fighters made and being anything but #1 would do them no shame as they are all, at the high end, supreme pieces of equipment for survival in a fight where are knives are used.

There is one man who stands out as the best fighting knife maker. He has researched the history, culture, and lived in that region all his life, that of the deep south of the USA. He forges the blades like others, he makes them strong like others, he differentially heat treats like others, but there is one thing he can do to steel that none can get just like him.

That is a knife with a blade that is long, I mean long as in anything over 10 1/2" of steel and usually 11" and up dependant on your body structure, which when held by the handle with your eyes closed feels like there is no blade there at all. He makes the fastest pure fighters in long knives.

This man trains certain units in the military as well as oversees mil-types in the fine art of dispatching your enemy with a blade. He knows from using them as fighters what they need to feel like [ their balance ] to be the fastest and has achieved this without giving up the integrity of the blade in the least.

That man is Bill Bagwell. I have trained with Bill on two ocassions and for a big man whose seen aa few days he moves that Belle like a 20 year old. He understands what is required and then gives people knives that float which is what one wants in a pure fghter.

I've handled or owned a few Bowies and have designed and had them made for me in the past by people who make great knives. None I've handled in 30 years come close to the speed of the Belle.

Steve Roos is correct. My Bagwell Belle in 11 1/8" blade has never touched anything. It is carried seldom, though in my state it can be legally, but when it is, it is there to defend my life.

I had the pleasure of walking with three serious blademen through the streets of New Orleans, each carrying a long knife one night a few years ago now. We visited the area where the long blade training schools were set up in the 1840-60 era.

That day we had stood at the "Duelling Oaks" where up to 50 men came to duel in a single day at the height of the culture of long knives duelling before pistols came into vogue later on. Hence the schools that were set up as you could be called out for anything as an insult to your honor. It's now part of a city park and well known in the area.

Sorry for getting carried away, history anyone?

Brownie
 
Originally posted by tknife
Okay, a steak knife can double as a utility knife too, right? But that isn't what it's designed for. I'm talking daggers, fighting Bowie's with sharpened clips, blade catching guards, etc.
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I use mine for hunting small game, and hopefully some bigger game in the future. (still saving for one of Larry Harley's hunts) The same features that make them good "fighting knives" also make them good at killing animals.

Originally posted by brownie
That is a knife with a blade that is long, I mean long as in anything over 10 1/2" of steel and usually 11" and up dependant on your body structure, which when held by the handle with your eyes closed feels like there is no blade there at all. He makes the fastest pure fighters in long knives.

This man trains certain units in the military as well as oversees mil-types in the fine art of dispatching your enemy with a blade. He knows from using them as fighters what they need to feel like [ their balance ] to be the fastest and has achieved this without giving up the integrity of the blade in the least.
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Well, you'll have to forgive my ignorance here, but I should think such a blade would be less than ideal in any discipline that put some emphasis on chopping blows. If you or he teaches a style that puts emphasis on speed above all else, then I suppose you'd want a blade that "floats". But don't try incorporating some kuhkri techniques into your regimen with such a blade, for the same reason you wouldn't study German Longsword techniques with a fencing foil. Am I close?

I also wanted to add that while Mr. Bagwell does indeed make awesome knives, I really doubt he is the only smith in the country capable of making such a quick blade. Surely he has even passed this knowledge to a few students himself? There are plenty of other master smiths around who I'm sure have the required skill and knowledge, but simply *choose* to make knives to suit their own purposes and style, but if asked could also make a very quick blade.
 
the possum:

The Belles are excellent at chopping, he demonstrated this effectively when chopping a 6 inch diameter log, 1 foot long lengthwise, clean through to the table. What more of a chopper do your needs require in a body to body confrontation?

They have all the attributes of others well made knives but have the speed necessary to be ahead of the curve in a fight for your life.

Brownie
 
My personal fighter is a very simple affair, actually. Small, around 4" blade, single edged. Purpose designed and made, by me. Unless you knew for sure why it was as it was, I doubt you'd pin it as a pure fighter. What do I do with it? I carry it, part of my EDC, so if I ever need it, I have it. Hopefully I never will.

I also have a Mullin 6" clip point fighter, D2, 3/16" - greenish Micarta handle, sharpened "false" edge. I carry it sometimes too - but it has a leather belt sheath, and its too exposed that way, once I get an IWB sheath for it, I may carry it more often. I preffer to carry single edged to avoid complications, but double is better I recognize, and I just like to carry the Mullin at times. Same reason.

And I'm working on a large fighting bowie - to take with me to the Riddle of Steel - that I may carry one or two times, but I think until I am in a more big/double edge friendly state, I wont carry it a lot, will put it under the matress, handle out for a house knife.
 
Originally posted by brownie0486
the possum:

The Belles are excellent at chopping, he demonstrated this effectively when chopping a 6 inch diameter log, 1 foot long lengthwise, clean through to the table. What more of a chopper do your needs require in a body to body confrontation?

They have all the attributes of others well made knives but have the speed necessary to be ahead of the curve in a fight for your life.

Brownie
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Hey there, Brownie. Thanks for the reply. I'm rolling another clove cigarette now as I anticipate a nice, long, friendly discussion.

Before really getting to the matter, I just want to point something out. First you seem to make a big deal about how Mr. Bagwell's knives are quicker than anyone else's, and thus best suited to the task we're discussing. But then in your next post you use the phrase "What more of a chopper do your needs require..." Now, are we talking about a tool that *can* work for a given job, or the *best* tool for the job? Surely I could say "I saw a trained man whirl a Cold Steel Trailmaster about mighty quickly. How much quicker of a blade do you need?" I'm not trying to attack you here or anything, but I just want us both to understand when the other is talking about something that *can* work vs. something that works *better*.

Now, as to your question, I'll come clean and say I've never held a real Hell's Belle, or more importantly never seen the tapers and weight placement used in their construction. I'm basing my statement on the presumption that his knives must be balanced close to the guard or even behind the guard in order to get that "floating" quality. Right? When such a blade hits a target in a chopping motion, there is not as much weight balanced forward to add force to the blow. All the work of the chop is done by the strength of your wrist, rather than the blade. Though I'm not clear whether you were saying Mr. Bagwell chopped thru that log across the grain, or split it lengthwise, either way it could have only been better if the balance was more forward.

I did this comparison with one of my big knives. When it was balanced about 3 1/2" in front of the guard, a tip cut could bring down a 3" diameter willow tree. By bringing the balance to only 1" in front of the guard, it now has that "floating" quality, but a tip cut will now *bounce off* a 1/2" diameter limb! That's a pretty significant difference in my opinion. Say, if we take 2 identical big bowie blades, and put simple wood handles on one, it would chop fairly well. If we take the other blade, and put a big, heavy pommel at the butt, it will not chop nearly as well as blade #1, though it will seem much quicker in manuvering. Or, take a hammer, and smack something with it. Note the damage inflicted on the target by the force of the blow. Now, hold the hammer backwards, so that your hand is choked up against the head, with the head sticking out the back of your hand like a pommel. Notice now you can swing that handle around pretty quickly. But try hitting something with the end of that handle, and note how much damage the target recieves. The handle should readily bounce off, because the head is acting as a counterweight, and causes the handle shaft to rotate upward in your grip upon impact. The mechanics and physics at work in this example are the same as when you chop wood (or another human)with a knife. The article on this page describes the phenomenon pretty accurately. sword motions and impacts

In summary, just because a blade has a given weight, length, etc. does not mean it will chop well. The same things done with the balance to make the blade seem light, must also decrease it's ability to chop. What more chopping ability do I need? With my knife, by balancing it to be quick, a blow that should take a man's arm clean off will now only break the skin and put a notch in his bone, in a "best case" scenerio. A quick cut that would normally break his skin and notch his bone, will now bounce off his jacket once the balance has been moved to close.
 
the possum:
I agree wtih everything in your last post. No question you have some knowldege of the blades and test them yourself [ thats good as many don't ].

The Belle will cleave a wrist or forearm off in a fight. I don't need anything more from a long knife in a fight as far a slashing power. With the knowledge of how to effectivly weild the long knives comes the freedom to increase the speed of the counter to his attack or to be able to redirect the blade at a thought, with no time wasted in getting the blade to redirect itself or having to heave hoe a less balanced knife.

Balance up front [ blade heavy ] will certainly chop [ slash ] deeper with less effort due to weight of course.

Most bladesmen who have the skills to effectively defend with a knife want something faster in a fluid fight. If you give up slashing effectiveness to the point it won't be effective, then thats bad.
If the blade you use is faster in the hand and you have equal abilities in the opponents, the faster blade usually wins as it gets to where it has to be for defense or an offensive move at the opponents creating an opening before the other can get his blade to cover.

The post was about the best long fighting knives.
If the knife is solid enough, strong enough, made out of equally good materials to others but is faster at redirecting atacks and counters due to balance that will be the better fighter. It has given up nothing in a defensive role and has the speed necessary to stay ahead of the opponent.

I take nothing away from others and their works in the least. I stated there are some great makers turning out great fighters. All things being equal, the faster the knife moves in the hand the better it can defend you and attack/counter the aggressor.

My Belle will likely never see the primary edge used in a fight. I have the knowledge and ability to use the back cutting, utilizing the swedge to do all the work. Will it chop through a tree limb as well as a heavier blade? no. Does it have enough power in the cut to take an arm at the elbow or downwards and destroy it beyond being 100% usable again to the opponent?, yes. And it gets there faster, thats a good thing.

Choppers are camp knives, can be bowie designed with clips or spear points. They are made for better chopping than the lighter blades, to do more work with less effort at chopping.

The long knives tactics do not regularly use the primary edge but use the back cutting swedge and the point. As the Belle is faster than any I've held or owned I can move the tip and redirect it after you have committed to a potential threat from it before you can react. It floats so you do not have to give off telegraphic signals with larger muscle groups to get the weight to redirect but instead move at the wrist.

Just some thoughts, others mileage may vary. I have certainly not held thousands of them but I have held a few hundred over the years. Bill knows the long knives from the perspective of fighting with them. My 11 1/8" bladed Belle has more reach with less weight than most fighters and gives up nothing in the strength dept. I know for a fact that Bill destroys knives that do not turn out fast in the hand, He makes the knives with the idea they will be used to defend. They probably aren't but he builds them that way anyway. If you get a chance to handle one, don't pass it up. It will give you an idea of what can be achieved.

As an aside, I had two Bagwells, sold one to another forum member. The one sold was 10 1/2" bladed. That knife is extremely fast but was not as fast as mine with the longer blade. Would anyone be able to tell the difference? Probably not, but I could and so could Bill when I questioned him on it upon receiving it. He had me look at the trapping guards. Mine are thinner and redirection is faster accordingly, it can be felt.
I had forgot I had told him on my first one [ 11" ]that I wanted the guards reduced further which he had done. Little subtle differences can be noticed once you have played with the long knives for awhile.

Brownie
 
Originally posted by Hawaiian
I would think the majority are collectors first and rarely carry those blades.
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Ditto...I know an awful lots of "Knife-Guys with a number of fighters, and only one that ever carries one, so I'd agree they are mostly collectibles.
 
Hi Brownie. Your post has left me with even more questions.

Originally posted by brownie0486
The Belle will cleave a wrist or forearm off in a fight. I don't need anything more from a long knife in a fight as far a slashing power. With the knowledge of how to effectivly weild the long knives comes the freedom to increase the speed of the counter to his attack or to be able to redirect the blade at a thought, with no time wasted in getting the blade to redirect itself or having to heave hoe a less balanced knife.
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OK. You know what you need better than I do. I am no knife fighter. If a Hell's Belle truly is the best compromise for your situation, go for it.


Originally posted by brownie0486
Most bladesmen who have the skills to effectively defend with a knife want something faster in a fluid fight. If you give up slashing effectiveness to the point it won't be effective, then thats bad.
If the blade you use is faster in the hand and you have equal abilities in the opponents, the faster blade usually wins as it gets to where it has to be for defense or an offensive move at the opponents creating an opening before the other can get his blade to cover.
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I have a number of honest questions for you here. How are you defining "slashing"? To me, slashing is a cut, often drawn upon impact, that is powered by a continuous pressure and follow through with the wrist, arm, & maybe shoulder. By my personal definition, this is different from a "chop", where the blade gets its initial momentum from the arm/wrist, but upon impact, the blade is supposed to do all the work; not you. Thus, to me, "slashing effectiveness" has nothing to do with weight or balance of the blade. You are doing the cutting in a slash,- therefore it wouldn't matter whether you had a butcher knife or a heavy Bowie. But it seems your definition of slash must also include momentum from the blade.

Also, are we strictly talking about a civilian self defense scenerio here? The smallsword and foil were the final evolution of the civilian duelling sword, and they placed all emphasis on very, very quick movements and feinting, much like the Bowie technique you seem to be describing. Thus I can't argue that your ideas about speed would be best for the average Joe.
But in military situations, (since you mentioned it) the heavy saber was the final evolution, with it's ability to deliver a powerful cutting blow. I should think that even in military situations today, you'd need much more chopping power than in a civilian self defense scenerio. Soldiers wear all kinds of equipment, heavy clothing, and even armor jackets that must be penetrated first. Yes? As mentioned earlier, your requirements may be best suited to your fighting style, but someone like a Guhrka warrior would be more used to a heavier blade.

Originally posted by brownie0486
My Belle will likely never see the primary edge used in a fight. I have the knowledge and ability to use the back cutting, utilizing the swedge to do all the work. Will it chop through a tree limb as well as a heavier blade? no. Does it have enough power in the cut to take an arm at the elbow or downwards and destroy it beyond being 100% usable again to the opponent?, yes. And it gets there faster, thats a good thing.

The long knives tactics do not regularly use the primary edge but use the back cutting swedge and the point. As the Belle is faster than any I've held or owned I can move the tip and redirect it after you have committed to a potential threat from it before you can react. It floats so you do not have to give off telegraphic signals with larger muscle groups to get the weight to redirect but instead move at the wrist.
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I have more questions for you here. First off, why do you plan to never use the primary edge in a fight? I'm from the school of thought that says "every feature of a weapon should be designed for a purpose". If you don't plan to use it, why have it there at all? Surely it could be far more usefull than blade catching guards for real world use. The swedge has far blunter edge geometry by design, even though it may be sharpened. Granted, I'd use it too, (all those possibilities with surprises and ripping back slashes) just not all the time.
When you mentioned being able to sever a forearm with this type of knife, did you mean the swedge would do it? From my experience with lightly balanced blades and animals, I'd have to say this may be possible with adrenaline, but almost impossible otherwise. If you meant you'd use the primary edge for this, then, well, maybe you should have been clearer on your earlier statement.

Lastly, if you want a very quick blade for stabbing and slashing (but very little "chopping"), then is the Bowie really the best design for you? Wouldn't a long slender dagger serve you better? Perhaps a turkish style with a slightly curved and upturned point? You'd still have the reach, same slashing ability, could be made even quicker than the Bowie, still have that back edge- but would be double ground for even better back cuts, and for that matter could also be made longer to give you even more reach and tip speed for less weight.

I guess someday I'll just have to take one of your classes or something, and this should all seem much clearer to me.
 
Possum, you have to try the back cut on things before you can appreciate how powerful it is. You don't need a bowie that's specifically designed for the back cut to try it out -- take whatever knife you have handy and hold it edge up.

When you use a bowie that's designed for it, a back cut is as much a thrust as a chop, and all that power is concentrated in the point. It's a fast move as well as a powerful one.... It's such a powerful move that you don't need a heavy blade to have a devastating effect. You get power from speed rather than from weight. I could type all night and you wouldn't get it, but try it out and you'll get the idea very quickly. The design of the human arm makes it stronger in one direction than in the other.

You have to compare the back cut to the snap cut, of course, not to the kind of overarm swings you'd make chopping wood. You can't wind up like a baseball pitcher when you're in a fight.
 
To add to Cougar's comments...
The ever so slight concave in the clip concentrates the force on the point.
Have your wife/gf step on your foot with her bare foot.
Then let her try with spike heels on.
:eek:
 
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