What do you learn from destruction tests?

[allyourblood]

I've not seen any of these "Noss" knife testing videos, but I'm assuming most of them consist of testing multiple, indentical knives? I mean, we're not talking about someone just using one knife and testing it to failure a single time, are we?? Heck, not even the smallest scientific tests are conducted with a single sample. How many units of the same knife does this guy break before arriving at his conclusions?

 

[singularity35]

Perhaps you're mistaking them not grasping this point for them simply not caring about it for reasons stated in the above post and which I was going to elaborate on but don't need to now.

Nope, some people say they don't care, some really don't care, and if you look at some posts, you'll find that some say there's nothing to be learned. Take your pick.

 

[four_shore]

I learned exactly what NOT to do if I want to keep my tools intact:thumbup:.

I also learned that not even CPM-3V will survive being stabbed into a tree trunk and smacked from the side with a 2x4.

hahaha, pretty good point.

we learn what not to ever ever ever do (which ultimately is mistreat and abuse our tools).

 

[Steven65]

I've learned that every couple of months someone posts a repeat of this thread and everyone gets their knickers in a knot over it.

I would take Noss far more seriously if he did not wear the mask and was forthright in his persona. Hiding his identity immediately makes me suspicious.
Personally I think the tests have little scientific value or validity but it does make fair entertainment.

 

[demoteamone]

An understanding of reality is essential in the search for truth. If you don't acknoweledge reality, it automatically works against you.
And the truth is that some knives wich cost 400$+ & gets various reward break with little stress comparisons with a 20$ knife.
Noss, is doin what every single knife Co. should do in the first place & make visible to public!

I can't agree more, especially the last sentence:thumbup:

 

[midnight flyer]

Yes, and I wonder why this is so hard to grasp for some.

In context to the post that this refers to, I can't say I know either.

Nor do I understand the folks that find all of this so annoying they actually care enough to tell others how they feel. If it is so bothersome, why care at all? Why care enough to take the time to get online and bash him if you think his results and tests are completely pointless or just asinine?

Myself, I got a good chuckle out of Noss, but he wasn't amusing enough to watch more than a video or two before a couple of years ago. I had no idea he was still on the air.

And I have to say, I see him like the old American Tourister ad (for those of us with a few extra years to remember) where they put the suitcase in the cage with the gorilla to see how it fares.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C-e96m4730

How is Noss any different from the gorilla? I never thought that I would need to buy gorilla proof luggage after seeing that commercial, nor did I think that American Tourister ad was telling me that it was a scientific test of any sort.

I saw the suitcase commercial, got a laugh and moved on.

Saw the knife destruction videos, got a laugh and moved on.

I just don't think knives are sacred territory. No one here would give rat's butt if he was pushing his 4X4 to its outermost limits for his satisfaction, tearing up set of wood chisels, or smashing a tuba.

Just take the videos for what they are.

I have to say though, that if I was a knife manufacturer, I would probably give a knife to Noss (and make him sign a confidentiality agreement!) and let him have at it. I would be interested to know how my product fared when used in the worst conditions by someone that didn't really understand the function of a cutting instrument. If nothing else, I could compare it to my own findings.

We do the same thing in construction. When we get a tool that claims to be "job tested tough" or "tested by professionals", we give it to the helpers to use while it is still under warranty. With little training, little interest in their work, and little or no concern for the tools since they didn't pay for it, you can count on them for a proper abuse test. If it survives them in one piece, the we have a winner.

Just think of Noss as the A/T gorilla, and all will be well.

Robert

 

[singularity35]

... I never thought that I would need to buy gorilla proof luggage after seeing that commercial...

Yah probably never had to deal with some of the baggage handlers here.

 

[kurodrago]

I have to say though, that if I was a knife manufacturer, I would probably give a knife to Noss (and make him sign a confidentiality agreement!) and let him have at it.
Robert

Nah............
If I was a knife manufacturer and smell something wrong..I replicate the same test and takeout Noss credibility.... guess what? didn't happen!

 

[Noctis3880]

I have to say though, that if I was a knife manufacturer, I would probably give a knife to Noss (and make him sign a confidentiality agreement!) and let him have at it. I would be interested to know how my product fared when used in the worst conditions by someone that didn't really understand the function of a cutting instrument. If nothing else, I could compare it to my own findings.

If I was a knife manufacturer, I'd ban the sale of my knives in the entire state he lives in and the surrounding states:thumbup:.

 

[midnight flyer]

If I was a knife manufacturer, I'd ban the sale of my knives in the entire state he lives in and the surrounding states:thumbup:.

Why?

As a contractor and a woodworker, I like to test my own work. I'm not afraid. And have had others test my designs on certain things built by me, pushing until they fail. Even to take the their tests to the lengths of absurdity, it helps me learn, or at the least, have confidence that my product will withstand the boundaries of misuse.

If I was the head of a multimillion dollar company that handed the village idiot/gorilla a knife that cost me 10 - 50 dollars to make, I wouldn't feel bad at all about finding out how long it took before he destroyed it and how he did it. Certainly cheap enough to me to find out.

Remember, when you sell your knives or any other product, you must, at least in part, plan for the lowest common denominator of good sense and lack of knowledge from a purchaser. Those tests certainly represent that end of the spectrum. I wouldn't be afraid to find out the results if it was me.

Robert

 

[michaelm466]

One can only learn what that particular example of that model of the knife can with stand, because this is a sample size of one, one cannot draw a general conclusion about the model being tested, because that specific sample may be in the very top 99 percentile strongest of all knives of that model, or it could be in the 1 percentile weakest of all examples of that model, no one can know without replicating the test exactly several times with several samples of the same model, and once you get a decent sample size, you can say with between this % of certainty and this % of certainty that this model can on average with stand this much stress/damage/abuse before breaking completely. It's basic statistics really, it's like rolling a dice once and because you get a 1, you think that every time you roll the dice it will always be a 1.

 

[singularity35]

If I was the head of a multimillion dollar company that handed the village idiot/gorilla a knife that cost me 10 - 50 dollars to make, I wouldn't feel bad at all about finding out how long it took before he destroyed it and how he did it. Certainly cheap enough to me to find out.

Unfortunately, I think manufacturers are afraid to gamble their "hard use" reputation. Or rather they want ELU's to continue to have faith(belief without proof).

One can only learn what that particular example of that model of the knife can with stand, because this is a sample size of one, one cannot draw a general conclusion about the model being tested, because that specific sample may be in the very top 99 percentile strongest .....

Yeh, yeh we've all heard that but most users who are interested are probably not looking for a 10 decimal place accuracy.

 

[demoteamone]

Why?

As a contractor and a woodworker, I like to test my own work. I'm not afraid. And have had others test my designs on certain things built by me, pushing until they fail. Even to take the their tests to the lengths of absurdity, it helps me learn, or at the least, have confidence that my product will withstand the boundaries of misuse.

I don't know if you contradict yourself more or just speculate about it?
There is always someone who will contest your methodology and conclusions. After all there were scientists that said we could not go to the moon but we did.
Noss provides a valuable service for those of us who expect a lot from our tools. He is willing to push tools to the limit and beyond. The average user will find this little more than entertainment however, for others it helps us from buying tools that will not meet our expectations. Right Mr midnight flyer.....?

 

[T. Koch]

Yeh, yeh we've all heard that but most users who are interested are probably not looking for a 10 decimal place accuracy.

It's not something 'we've all heard' it's one of the basic premises that needs to be met if something is to be deemed 'scientific'. It's not a question of accuracy, but as others rightfully have pointed out: A test with a sample size of one will only give you results applicable to the one sample being tested, the results can not correctly be extended to apply to all examples in existence.

I have no feelings in any way about destruction tests as such, but as a scientist I do care about proper application of scientific terminology.

 

[Arakiel]

I learned that I like to watch things get destroyed whilst destroying a pizza. Knives included.

 

[Planterz]

I learned that there's a guy in his garage who scientifically tests knives.
- The tests are documented and repeatable

*derisive snort*

Randomly beating a knife with a 3 pound hammer is quite the opposite of scientific, and repeatability would require a rig of some sort. When you watch the infamous CRK GB breakage, you can that he's hitting the knife at an extremely bad angle for any knife to survive. Does he hit every knife he tests at that angle? I don't know. You don't know. He doesn't know. Because it's not scientific and repeatable.

Some people might liken destruction tests to crash-testing cars, since people buying them (and the government) want to know how a car and its passengers will hold up in a likely crash scenario. But that's fallacious IMO. A car is designed to be crashed, but a knife isn't designed to be abused to the point of destruction. noss4's "tests" are more like crash-testing a car by hitting a brick wall doing 150mph, or driving it off a cliff into the Grand Canyon. It demonstrates and proves nothing, except that you shouldn't drive cars off cliffs and you shouldn't beat on a knife with a 3 pound hammer.

He's been gone for quite a while. As far as I'm concerned, you didn't miss much, as I had him on ignore long before he got banned.

You might be thinking of nozh2002. I used to have a hard time remembering which was which too, as they were always both FOS.

 

[singularity35]

*derisive snort*

Randomly beating a knife with a 3 pound hammer is quite the opposite of scientific, and repeatability would require a rig of some sort. When you watch the infamous CRK GB breakage, you can that he's hitting the knife at an extremely bad angle for any knife to survive. Does he hit every knife he tests at that angle? I don't know. You don't know. He doesn't know. Because it's not scientific and repeatable.

Some people might liken destruction tests to crash-testing cars, since people buying them (and the government) want to know how a car and its passengers will hold up in a likely crash scenario. But that's fallacious IMO. A car is designed to be crashed, but a knife isn't designed to be abused to the point of destruction. noss4's "tests" are more like crash-testing a car by hitting a brick wall doing 150mph, or driving it off a cliff into the Grand Canyon. It demonstrates and proves nothing, except that you shouldn't drive cars off cliffs and you shouldn't beat on a knife with a 3 pound hammer.



You might be thinking of nozh2002. I used to have a hard time remembering which was which too, as they were always both FOS.

So how do you gauge the strength of your knives?

 

[Planterz]

So how do you gauge the strength of your knives?

I look at them very, very crosseyed. If they survive that, I make angry faces at them. And if they manage to survive that, I start with the sarcasm. The only knife that can survive the harshest sarcasm is the Case Peanut, but that's only because it's above sarcasm, and therefor any attempts are simply beneath it. Although, one time, I got sardonic on my CV Peanut, and it developed a couple rust spots (one spot might have been olive brine though), so now I limit sarcasm only to stainless steel knives. Excessive sarcasm can be corrosive.

 

[DrivebyTrucker]

I'm not impressed or offended with his videos. But I keep in mind the intended purpose of the knife. The Busse ASH series is a good example as there are at least three. The Skinny Ash (Which I have), regular Ash, and the Fat Ash. All three are the same length and size, they only differ in their thickness. It's logical to assume that of the three, the thicker one, or Fat Ash, would be the "toughest" of the three. It would also be the heaviest. You have to decide what you think is most important to you. Good cutting and slicing ability combined with comfort and lightweight, or the ability to hack through a wall, peel open a trunk, and use as a step.

 

[singularity35]

I look at them very, very crosseyed. If they survive that, I make angry faces at them. And if they manage to survive that, I start with the sarcasm. The only knife that can survive the harshest sarcasm is the Case Peanut, but that's only because it's above sarcasm, and therefor any attempts are simply beneath it. Although, one time, I got sardonic on my CV Peanut, and it developed a couple rust spots (one spot might have been olive brine though), so now I limit sarcasm only to stainless steel knives. Excessive sarcasm can be corrosive.

Somehow I knew you weren't going to give a serious answer. LOL.

That's because you can never know how strong something is until you push the limits.