What drill bit size to use for non peened pins?

stingray4540

stingray4540

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Mar 26, 2007
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I'm planning on freezing my pins then letting them expand in the hole instead of peening, so I was wondering what size drill bit would I need for this application?

Right now I'm just dealing with 3/32" pins but will probably need the same question answered for 1/8", 1/4"thong, and 1/4" mosaic in the future.

Do I just use a 3/32" drill bit for a 3/32" pin or do I need to go a tad smaller?
I tried doing a search but the search function only works sometimes for me, and today is not one of those times. I would like to order the pin and the bit at the same time so any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

P.S. incase it matters, it's for a fixed blade, and most likely will use cocobolo or ironwood for handle material.
 
I use 1/8" Nickel silver pins and a #30 drill bit. I suggest you rough up the pins by rolling them on a 120 grit abrasive sheet and just epoxy them in place if you don't want to peen them.
Jim Arbuckle
 
Do you not peen your pins with the #30 bit? And do you know what number I should use for a 3/32" pin?
 
I do not peen my pins, and have never had one come loose. I sometimes put little notches in them and rough them up to get a good bite with the epoxy. I use the same drill size as the pin material. If the pin is just a little tight going in with a dry fit, it will go in with the epoxy. The epoxy acts like a lubricant when it is wet. If it's too tight when dry fit, I'll lightly hand sand the pin until it is a snug fit. I've learned the feel of the correct fit through trial and error and lots of practice.

I also go crazy with pins from time to time and probably overdo it. I have some models that I make that have 26 pins, such as the one in the attached photo.

Scott (Ickie) Ickes
 
Dang scotickes, you are a pin maniac! Let me take a stab at answereing Terry dodson's question? Did you put in tubes that were the same material as your bolster and fill the tubes with black epoxy? Did you make the mosaic pins yourself? If so, were did you get the small tubes from?
 
stingray4540 said:
Dang scotickes, you are a pin maniac! Let me take a stab at answereing Terry dodson's question? Did you put in tubes that were the same material as your bolster and fill the tubes with black epoxy? Did you make the mosaic pins yourself? If so, were did you get the small tubes from?
Click to expand...

Did you put in tubes that were the same material as your bolster and fill the tubes with black epoxy?
Click to expand...

Actually, no I didn't, but that is a great idea. I actually put in short pins, then drill them to get the correct depth. Then I just backfill the holes with epoxy.

Did you make the mosaic pins yourself?
Click to expand...

I purchased those mosaics. I have made mosaic pins, but since I don't have a vacuum pump it's difficult to do. I have used tubing to suck the epoxy in, but I don't even like using a straw on a McDonalds milkshake, let alone trying to suck epoxy up into a tube. Until I get a vacuum pump setup, I'll be purchasing them for a while. At the Oregon Knife Collectors Association show there was a guy there with some really radical looking pins. I'm hoping I got one of his business cards, because his mosaic pins were outrageous!

Scott (Ickie) Ickes
 
As you can imagine, the chances of one of my 26 pin handles coming loose is pretty remote!
 
stingray4540 said:
Dang scotickes, you are a pin maniac! Let me take a stab at answereing Terry dodson's question? Did you put in tubes that were the same material as your bolster and fill the tubes with black epoxy? Did you make the mosaic pins yourself? If so, were did you get the small tubes from?
Click to expand...

If so, were did you get the small tubes from?
Click to expand...

I forgot to answer this one. My local true value hardware store has just about any size tube you can imagine. They have them in round and square. They have them in brass, copper and stainless also. They'll also order tube for you from their supplier catalogs. So you can get just about anything you need. I don't have an Ace hardware really close, but I would imagine that they have them too.
 
Scott,
If you find his card please pass along the info to me. Always looking for something different.
Thanks,
Matt
 
K & S Engineering manufactures a GREAT variety of pin and tube stock. You can google them. They're usually available at hobby stores where they do a lot of modeling!!! Also, you can get them at McMaster-Carr (of course).
 
Use a #41 drill for 3/32 pins. Beating a pin into a hole sucks, but when they are the same dimension, that's what happens. Use #41 for 3/32, #30 for 1.8, #21 for 5/32, an a letter F for 1/4". Saves so much grief.

Gene
 
Gene Martin: So those are the drill bits that actually match the same exact dimensions? Is that because a 3/32 pin is actually a tad bigger than 3/32? I'm not worried about a tight fit, like I said, I'm planning on freezing my pins so they will fit into the hole then expand to hold themselves in place, so I won't mind using a bit that is a smigin too small.



Scottikis: Have you tried getting a tube that fits exactly around your mosaic pin, then sealing off one end of the large tube and filling it half way with epoxy. Then you just shove your mosaic into the larger tube and it will force the epoxy into and up the mosaic pin? DISCLAIMER: I have not actually tried this myself, just heard about it, but it makes sense and you don't have to kill brain cells in the process. I'm hoping to try this method if I can find the materials to make my own pins. thanks for the tip about true value.
 
stingray4540 said:
...I'm not worried about a tight fit, like I said, I'm planning on freezing my pins so they will fit into the hole then expand to hold themselves in place....
Click to expand...

I hadn't heard of that before. Does it work with nickel silver, brass, or both? What if they expand too much and try to split the scale? :eek:

So far I've just used n/s pins, same size drill bit, and rough up the pin like others said, more surface area for the epoxy to stick to. (I sand them with 80-grit and put a few notches in each with a small triangle file) This also serves to make the pin slightly smaller, so you don't have to beat them in and there's room for a layer of epoxy around the pin*. I don't peen them at all, just let them set up overnight or more and finish the handle, so the pins are flush.

*I rehandled a machete with curly maple scales, n/s pins and thong tube... I decided to give JBWeld a try. I'm pretty confident it will hold :) But you can see a thin line of dark grey around the pin/tube. I think it looks cool, like a spacer kind of, and I'm going to say I did that on purpose! :D So... how does one add color to clear epoxy? I envision red fiber spacers under scales, and a red "spacer" around the pins, for instance... am I thinking too hard again?

scott, I don't see myself putting that many pins on a handle; I have a hard enough time getting two holes drilled straight and in line with each other! :o :D
 
Gibson: It is a matter of physics. Almost all material shrinks when it is cooled and expands when it is heated. So this will work for any pin material, although the type of material will determine to what degree it will expand or contract.

So, if you drill a hole that a pin will fit into but has to be forced and cursed at to do so, you can put the pin in the freezer. The pin will shrink ever so slightly as it cools. Then you take the pin out of the freezer and it should easily slide right into the hole. As it warms back up to room temperature it will expand to it's original size and no bigger. So if it was tough to get into the hole at room temp then it will be easy to get into the hole when frozen and when it comes back to room temp it should be nice and snug in the hole.

It shouldn't split the scale unless your drill a hole that was too small for the pin to begin with. The pin will only expand back to it's original diameter, unless you heat it up. In other words, the pin will be one diameter at freezing temp, another diameter at room temp, and another diameter at 200 degrees. So as long as you don't plan on putting your knife in the oven or getting too crazy when shaping your handles the pin won't get any bigger than it was when you first got it in the mail.

I hope that makes sense. Anyways, I could even calculate excatly how much the diameter of different pin materials will change, but then I would have to get out my text books.

P.S. I am also going to use nickle silver pins.

Disclaimer: I have not yet personally tried this meathod yet as I'm working on my very first knife right now, but it is sound logic and correlates with how physics works. This is how I plan on doing mine, not that it will work for sure, but it makes sense to me so I'm going to do it. Do this at your own risk and preferebly not on $50 scales if it's your first time.
 
Use this for all your size, tap, drill sizes and equivlents:
http://bobmay.astronomy.net/misc/drillchart.htm

Print it off and nail it to your wall!
Get a decent micrometer and double check this size of your bits, pin stock, etc.
If you have a buffer, you can mimimize your pin stock just by buffing them down with coarse compound before you cut them off of the rod.
 
scott, I don't see myself putting that many pins on a handle; I have a hard enough time getting two holes drilled straight and in line with each other!
Click to expand...

I do it the hard way to make sure they're straight. Here is my process.
a. I drill all the pin holes in the tang.
b. Then I use a file guide to position the front bolsters.
c. I epoxy one front bolster on.
d. When the epoxy has cured, I use the tang holes as a template to drill
back through the bolster.
e. I then epoxy on the other front bolster.
f. When the second bolster has cured I use the previously drilled first bolster
as a template and drill back through the second bolster.
g. I then cut, rough up, and notch the pins for the bolster and epoxy them
in.
h. Once the pin epoxy has cured I remove the file guide and belt sand the pins flush with the bolster surface. If they are to be
recessed and filled with epoxy, I skip this step, since they aren't protruding above the bolsters.
i. I then use my drum sander to profile the bolsters along the tang edges.
j. I now have two perfectly aligned bolsters that will act as my file guide for
the handle material.
k. Repeat steps c through i, for the handle scales.
l. Repeat steps c through j, for the back bolsters.
m. You have perfect alignment of your handle materials all the way down the
tang.

I'm posting a picture of a knife I made that has a 10 piece handle and 26 pins
holding it all together. There are actually 6 additional brass pins in each bolster that you can't see and they almost disappear because I didn't recess these. You can barely see them in person, and can't see them in my crummy photo. I apologize for the extremely poor quality of the picture. I took this one before I knew anything about photography. I'm still not any good at it, but not as bad as I used to be.
 
stingray4540 said:
Gibson: It is a matter of physics. Almost all material shrinks when it is cooled and expands when it is heated. So this will work for any pin material, although the type of material will determine to what degree it will expand or contract.

So, if you drill a hole that a pin will fit into but has to be forced and cursed at to do so, you can put the pin in the freezer. The pin will shrink ever so slightly as it cools. Then you take the pin out of the freezer and it should easily slide right into the hole. As it warms back up to room temperature it will expand to it's original size and no bigger. So if it was tough to get into the hole at room temp then it will be easy to get into the hole when frozen and when it comes back to room temp it should be nice and snug in the hole.

It shouldn't split the scale unless your drill a hole that was too small for the pin to begin with. The pin will only expand back to it's original diameter, unless you heat it up. In other words, the pin will be one diameter at freezing temp, another diameter at room temp, and another diameter at 200 degrees. So as long as you don't plan on putting your knife in the oven or getting too crazy when shaping your handles the pin won't get any bigger than it was when you first got it in the mail.

I hope that makes sense. Anyways, I could even calculate excatly how much the diameter of different pin materials will change, but then I would have to get out my text books.

P.S. I am also going to use nickle silver pins.

Disclaimer: I have not yet personally tried this meathod yet as I'm working on my very first knife right now, but it is sound logic and correlates with how physics works. This is how I plan on doing mine, not that it will work for sure, but it makes sense to me so I'm going to do it. Do this at your own risk and preferebly not on $50 scales if it's your first time.
Click to expand...

I used to freeze my pins, but the thermal expansion rates don't help too much at these small sizes. The thermal expansion rate for steel and brass are listed below. Nickel is somewhere between these two and actually very close to steel. I couldn't find the expansion rate for nicklesilver, but assume it's close to nickel. (Note: These rates are for a circle.)

Steel...Expect .0006" of shrinkage per 1" of diameter per 100 degrees F.
(for a 1/8" pin you will get .000075" of shrinkage per 100 degrees drop in
temperature)
^^^^^Not much help is it?^^^^^

Brass...Expect .00095" of shrinkage per 1" of diameter per 100 degrees F.
(for a 1/8" pin you will get ..00012" of shrinkage per 100 degrees drop in
temperature)
^^^^^Better, but still not much help^^^^^^

By the way, brass has the largest thermal response of any of the materials we commonly use for pins, so that is as good as it gets. I doubt you'll be able to notice the difference when pressing pins in. I sure couldn't, so that is why I stopped freezing them. The other reason to not freeze pins is that they'll draw moisture as they return to room temperature and this could adversely affect the quality of the epoxy on the pins.
 
Thanks for the info gents. Scott, does that much metal in the handle affect the weight/balance?

I kind of thought brass would be more affected by chilling because it's softer... not sure if that's a valid statement but it makes sense in my brain.

I think I'll stick (ho ho) with epoxy.

What do you use to color clear epoxy? I'm thinking fine sanding dust from dyed wood would work? (I got plenty of that ;))
 
GibsonFan said:
Thanks for the info gents. Scott, does that much metal in the handle affect the weight/balance?

I kind of thought brass would be more affected by chilling because it's softer... not sure if that's a valid statement but it makes sense in my brain.

I think I'll stick (ho ho) with epoxy.

What do you use to color clear epoxy? I'm thinking fine sanding dust from dyed wood would work? (I got plenty of that ;))
Click to expand...

I don't color my epoxy. I purchase it already colored. I'm limited to the color choices of the manufacture. I've tried to color glues and epoxies in the past, and I'm always concerned that they will affect the quality of the epoxy.

Since my name and reputation are going on each knife, I don't want a faulty epoxy job to cause a handle to come loose.
 
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