what good are "premium" scales?

D

dadouthat

Joined
Apr 15, 2006
Messages
6
I often see comments that knives like the Grip have cheap scales. For a user knife, I don't think there is anything better and I much prefer them even if the sound that the blade makes when closing "sounds cheap". Slab sided G 10 scales seem to be considered a big step up from nicely contoured and grippy FRN and what mystifies me even more are some of the much touted customs with metal scales. Nice smooth micarta scales are also considered a big step up from FRN. Has anyone who is so fond of metal or of smooth scales of any type used them in either subzero weather or in dressing out game? No matter how wonderful the other attributes of the knife are or even the name of the maker, slab scales and metal or any other smooth grip are great for looks but scales like the Grip are better for use in cold weather and field conditions. And they don't even cost more!
 
The harder, tougher materials are more durable and better. The softer, grippier materials hold better in the cold and wet.
It's all in the purpose, so if you like what you have, use it happily.
Greg
 
Nice smooth micarta when dry is not so grippy when it's wet it gets sticky. I have a Wilson model 1 with micarta and when my hands are moist the micarta is grippyer, and it's very durable.
 
I couldn't agree more with Dadouthat.... they're not as cheap as they are functional....

I've skinned and dressed both large and small game with an old buck fixed blade with smooth wood scales. It's only when the blood is half-dry and sticky that you have any grip at all. And when they're wet it's just as bad.

I've handled the Griptillians, fixed and folders. I don;t think they're "cheap" at all...they feel pretty good to me. Still, I prefer rough textured G-10 or the textured aluminum like the BM Presidio best. I have a new BM Nimravus (Merry Christmas!) with G-10.... I'll have to wait and see how that feels with perspiration, water, or blood before I pass a final judgement (though I'm kindly thinking it's gonna be just fine :)
 
G10 is utterly superior to FRN. I'm fine with FRN on budget knives, I don't request that the griptillian get nicer scales...but I just don't buy FRN knives anymore. They look and feel cheap to me--FRN's feel is associated with plastic. Good G10, ala Spyderco and especially Strider and some Kershaws (Avalanche). G10 is also much tougher than FRN, although FRN is probably plenty tough. I've dropped FRN knives on concrete and they got a scuff on it (no problem at all, but, just something that wouldn't have happend with G10. I've used G10 handles as hammers in tight situations working on stuff on ladders, and once I got the paint off of it, it was totally fine. And FRN gets cold or hot...G10 feels temperature neutral all the time to me.

FRN is fine for entry level knives, it should never be used on high end production folders and certainly not customs. It does have one huge advantage over G10, and it's price. This is alone is enough to buy it over G10, but if the money is there, G10 should be too.

SS knives are frequently cheaper than FRN counterparts, BTW.
 
though FRN is a great material which works just fine as a handle material for a knife i dont carry anything FRN anymore it just looks "cheap" to me, i very much prefer (and demand lol) carbon fibre/G10/or my favorite, titanium, they just look a lot better imho.
 
FRN on its own is not grippy, it has to have texture molded in. G10 is also pretty slick without texture being added. Canvas Micarta is grippy to some degree naturally, and adding texture enhances that. Rubber type handles are the grippiest, IMO- but many are not very durable.
 
I was hoping for answers beyond--and I paraphrase here-- "G 10 is just better and doesn't look as cheap". Better for what? For a circuit board, to hammer nails, to make a nice sound when the knife is closed, to contour so that it is not a slab, because it costs more, because it won't get scratched as readily if --god forbid--it is dropped onto a hard scratchy surface? As far as thermal conductivity and scales feeling cold or hot, I doubt very much if there is a significant quantitative difference between FRN and G 10 or any of the non metallic grips. For those who advocate metal, it simply reflects the fact that the major use of the knife is for display or opening boxes in a warm place. Try gripping that lovely metal scaled knife at 10 or 20 F (let alone winter temps in cold places) and then decide how wonderful it is. And try any of those smooth and non-textured handles when it is raining and you are dressing out game.

I do appreciate the remark that smooth FRN is slippery stuff.The nice part is that contoured and grippy scales like those of the Griptilian are easily produced.

I have no quarrel with making an aesthetic choice that has little to do with function so long as we recognize the basis of the choice.
 
I think the point the other posters were making was G-10 can be textured to be just as grippy, if not more grippy, than FRN, but also had a wealth of other benefits as mentioned above. Some of my G-10 knives are much grippier than my Benchmade Grip with FRN.
 
And again it goes back to use/need. I do not hunt and my use of a knife does not include skinning. Although it does get cold, here in the southeast, I'm not faced with those ultracold temps. that would present a problem with meatal handles knives. My current edc has linen micarta handles and my other one is titanium with inlaid ironwood and both suit my purpose and do what I need them to do, and look great to boot.
 
Well of course I can't debate that people will find G10 more aesthetically pleasing all the time, but I'll be I could show that it's far, far, far, far more probable that someone will like a G10 knife (the feel, the look, etc) to an FRN knife. I'd say something like 10,000 to 1 odds. I'm sure some people think polyester shirts are the greatest, I'll just stick to my cashmere.

Again, I can't hope to prove that all people will feel that G10 stays more temp neutral than FRN, but I'll bet I could actually show that the temperature of G10 changes significantly less than FRN.

FRN can be sort of grippy (you mention the griptillian, which...isn't really grippy at all), like the D`allara or Native III....but in its grippiest form, it's a lot less grippy than Spyderco's G10, much less Strider or some Kershaw G10.

It seems like your complaint is that we are claiming that G10 is subjectively better to us instead of appealing to some objective authority. But subjectivity is important. I don't imagine you'll have much luck convincing people that don't mind spending the money on a G10 knife to go back to FRN. FRN is for cheap kninves.

Of course, you might actually be demanding the impossible and asking me to explain why I find something more aesthetically pleasing than something else. Why blue instead of red? Well, okay, I can't give you that answer, so I suppose if that's your criteria that's needed to qualify textured FRN as better than high end materials, then you'd win, but I don't see how that would follow...

It seems like ergonomics are intrinsically a subjective thing...I'm not sure how we're going to escape that...

You further list all the attempts at objective reasoning in a mocking way, as if the reasons should just be invalidated prima facie. But maybe some of us don't want our knives to be scratches up from the occasional fall and we're willing to pay for it (among the other reasons).

The attacks on metal handles are a little more obvious...but what metal are you talking about? You might try switching to titanium, which isn't nearly so temperature sensitive, if it really bothers you that much. And what for textured titanium (like the blue bump) or even textured SS?

What about SS with grip inserts like the Kershaw storm?

I mean, claiming that all metal handles are safe queens (if used in any cold area) out right seems like a hasty generalization.

And since when are high end material handles associated with smoothness whereas FRN is not? There are tons of grippy (the vast, vast majority, I feel) of high end handle material knives in the world, probably in far greater excess than their FRN counterparts (I again note that the grip series is not particularly grippy, despite its namesake), including the lovely but smooth Spyderco Centofante.

The core claim is simply false. No, textured FRN is not a realistic competitor to G10 or some other "high end materials." If you made an FRN Military and sold it next to the CF one for the same price, no one would buy it, period.

FRN is a wonderful material, but it has its place, and it's just not next to the G10/CF/Ti knives.

Like just about everyone else my age, I started with FRN knives....but I don't own a single one anymore. The D`allara DP (excellent knife, btw) in some recent photographs I gave away as a gift to my cousin, which might confuse some folks as to the validity of that statement.
 
So basically what you're saying, is that all knives with handles made of anything but FRN, are wallhangers especially if you live in Antartica hunting walrus's. I could be wrong, but I think that FRN is basically (I'm sure there's probably some differences) a resin without the added material found in G-10. Therefore, its reasonable to conclude that the added material in G-10 would provide additional insulation and therefore probably be more comfortable in colder weather. And being that FRN is a hard resin, that without the checkering/molding would be slicker when wet than G-10. Thats why in addition to checkering there are choils, flipper hand guards and indentations/cutouts in the handle to give better grips. The big advantage to FRN in my opinion is the light weight and cost and to me the light weight is not an advantage. I prefer more of a heft to a knife when I'm using it, although because I live in Arizona and don't run a trap line, the heft evidently doesn't really matter since I obviously only open envelopes with my knives...
 
Blade Junky said:
I could be wrong, but I think that FRN is basically (I'm sure there's probably some differences) a resin without the added material found in G-10.
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FRN is nylon with fiberglass added, Fiberglass Reinforced Nylon.

In my case, I prefer G-10 and micarta over FRN simply for looks and feel. I'm in the same boat, I don't run traplines or pry open ammo containers but those darn envelopes get what's coming to them. :)
 
dadouthat said:
Try gripping that lovely metal scaled knife at 10 or 20 F (let alone winter temps in cold places) and then decide how wonderful it is. And try any of those smooth and non-textured handles when it is raining and you are dressing out game.
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If it's that cold, I'll be wearing gloves. Gloves that are heavy enought to keep my hands insulated from cold metal. Not just a metal knife, but also the tractor controls, pitchforks, scoop shovels, wrenches/pliers, pipes, or all the other metal stuff I'd need to touch constantly.

And, if I'm wearing gloves like that, then simple texturing like molded checkering or grooves won't help much at all. The overall handle shape must be designed to keep itself comfortable and secure with or without texturing.
 
And being that it is Fiberglass Reinforced Nylon, it doesn't have the stiffness of G10. Not at all. A FRN handled knife will cold flow - i.e. change shape. That means when clipped in a pair of jeans the handles squeeze together and actually abrade the blade, which is why so many of the larger FRN knives now have liners. My Gen 1 Endura does this, and the integrally molded clip loosens at the same time, so that after about six weeks of EDC, the knife walks out of my pocket and falls to the ground. That's what a inexpensive molded handle will do for the price.

FRN can also be molded to have extremely sharp checkering, for example, the Buck Striders, which literally eat slots in jeans pockets. Not needing that much grip, I sanded mine down with 20 grit sandpaper, which gave a smooth, distressed and soft surface that actually grips quite well. But I prefer the molded canvas texture of most G10's, especially on the SnG, which does quite well - I've yet to drop it, which is why I prefer it to metals, especially aluminum. It doesn't abrade my pockets or close up on the blade.

Grippiness of a knife scale is a very relative factor to the user and his anticipated activities, including the length of use on a daily basis. Hand tools used hour after hour - machetes, hammers, and such, share one distinctive trait - they are smooth to a fault. No one seems to appreciate blisters caused by a grip that does too well in one localized area, so observations about the grippiness of FRN are strictly related to the molded checkering from that manufacturer and how you relate to it. It says nothing about it's overall ability to perform all the jobs of a handle scale or how well it does.
 
I posted that I thought the Griptillian scales were just fine BUT, that I preferred G-10, (or Micarta), or aluminum (like the BM Presidio). Now, my aluminum preferrence is not for "display knives".... I have none of those.

I agree with the possum, when it's cold, I'll be wearing gloves. If I'm not, the feel of that cold aluminum won't last long in my hand.... it'll warm right up. This I know from experience. Now, a solid steel blade handle like maybe a bare tang? That's a little different --- steel holds its temperatures much longer than alum.

If you wanted a certain "pre-canned" response when you started this thread, you should've just said so in your opening post. But, you asked, so you got opinions and preferences for an answer. Maybe you're looking for justification for that Grip you bought? Only you can do that. I think it's a fine knife with adequate scales.

EDIT: Ok I stand corrected. You didn't really ask for opinions about FRN, G-10, or other. You just asked if anyone had experience in cold weather with other scales.
 
Artfully Martial said:
G10 is utterly superior to FRN. I'm fine with FRN on budget knives, I don't request that the griptillian get nicer scales...but I just don't buy FRN knives anymore. They look and feel cheap to me--FRN's feel is associated with plastic. Good G10, ala Spyderco and especially Strider and some Kershaws (Avalanche). G10 is also much tougher than FRN, although FRN is probably plenty tough. I've dropped FRN knives on concrete and they got a scuff on it (no problem at all, but, just something that wouldn't have happend with G10. BTW.
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Artfully Martial, FRN's are plastic. So is G10. FRN is glass reinforced nylon. G10 is glass fiber/epoxy laminate. Nylon and epoxy are both plastics.

Any impact that would scratch FRN will also scratch G10, if it actually hit the G10. The reason you do not see the scratch is that the G10 is a flat panel. It does not make up the entire handle. So when the knife falls, 9 times out of 10 it does not hit the G10. FRN usually makes up the entire handle. So no matter how the knife falls, it will hit the FRN. So you see damage on the FRN, but not on the G10. But that is not because the G10 is tougher. It is because the G10 was not impacted.


tirod3 said:
And being that it is Fiberglass Reinforced Nylon, it doesn't have the stiffness of G10. Not at all. A FRN handled knife will cold flow - i.e. change shape. That means when clipped in a pair of jeans the handles squeeze together and actually abrade the blade, which is why so many of the larger FRN knives now have liners. My Gen 1 Endura does this, and the integrally molded clip loosens at the same time, so that after about six weeks of EDC, the knife walks out of my pocket and falls to the ground. That's what a inexpensive molded handle will do for the price.
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Tirod, that is not an example of cold flow. It is an example of a material bending when placed under stress, because an insufficient amount of material was used. The FRN was tooAll materials exhibit this behavior. I have FRN knives that have thin handles and they exihibit this behavior. I have other FRN knives that have thicker handles that do not.

And by the way, G10 knives have liners/frames too. G10 is never the frame of the knife. FRN usually is. So you are compring pure FRN to a combination G10 with a metal frame and wondering at the difference in performance.

All that being said, I like G10 on a metal frame. I also like FRN. Unfortunately FRN gets a bad rap because it is often used incorrectly. For an example of FRN used correctly, look at a Spyderco Native III.
 
FRN is usually the frame of a knife? Like...when? I can't think of a single one of mine with an FRN frame....

Whether or not their both technically coined plastics is irrelevent to what they feel like. One feels like a plastic, one doesn't, and that's good enough for me.

And lastly, G10 IS much more abrasion resistant than FRN....there's no way around coupling my real world experiences with any other hypothesis. FRN will scratch whereas G10 will be entirely immune 99% of the time. Remember, in a few situations I've had to use handles as hammers in lieu of the correct tool. Believe me, the G10 has been hit...I've had to spend like 15 minutes scrubbing paint off of it a few times.
 
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