what good are "premium" scales?

[Vivi]

I've only had a G10 knife of mine dropped once, which was by a friend. Fell from about waist level to concrete.

As you can see (Top right corner of the Cara Cara), G10 is immune my ass.

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

Oh really? You might want to look at a Spyderco Starmate and Military sometime.

& the Dodo. . .

 

[samhain73]

Yeah, but for the sake of argument, the Starmate and Military both had a lot of flex to the handles, which is why I got rid of the Starmate, and the Military has steel liners in it's most recent incarnation does it not? Whereas the Native doesn't have any. They are pretty much the same, fiberglass in plastic. That being said, I prefer G10 for the feel, it's more dense, where FRN feels lighter, thus more hollow. By the way, Artfully, have you ever owned a Strider, or are you just saying thats it's G10 is better just "because"?

 

[mmmotorcycle]

G-10 is essentially synthetic Micarta. The G-10 on that Byrd cannot comapre to that on say a Manix simply because not all G-10 is greated equal.

mmmotorcycle

 

[knarfeng]

Oh really? You might want to look at a Spyderco Starmate and Military sometime.

I stand corrected. I should have used "seldom" rather than never. I should know better than to use absolutes.

FRN is usually the frame of a knife? Like...when? I can't think of a single one of mine with an FRN frame....

Whether or not their both technically coined plastics is irrelevent to what they feel like. One feels like a plastic, one doesn't, and that's good enough for me.

And lastly, G10 IS much more abrasion resistant than FRN....there's no way around coupling my real world experiences with any other hypothesis. FRN will scratch whereas G10 will be entirely immune 99% of the time. Remember, in a few situations I've had to use handles as hammers in lieu of the correct tool. Believe me, the G10 has been hit...I've had to spend like 15 minutes scrubbing paint off of it a few times.

I already gave an example of a Knife with an FRN frame (handle, body, whatever you want to call it. No liners, no reinforcement): Native III. Others I can name off the top of my head: Gerber EZout, Bench Made Ascent, Junglee Marshall.

Sorry, G10 and FRN both feel like plastic to me. I don't consider that bad. It just is.

Sorry if I sounded theoretical. My comments on abrasion resistance were not based on theory. We use reinforced plastics and laminate materials all the time in building aircraft parts. My experience is that neither material is especially abrasion resistant. When we want abrasion resistance, we are more likely to use nylon than epoxy. But the epoxy laminates are stiffer and can be used as structural components. The nylon cannot. Is the G10 stiffer? No doubt about it. Is it more abrasion resistant? Not in my experience. YMMV.

I own a lot of low end folders with FRN handles because that is what I can afford and I'm more interested in the blade than the handle. As I said, my experience is that when designed properly FRN handles perform well. But being found on low end knives, the FRN is frequently under engineered and is not thick enough. I think FRN gets a bad rap because it so often is not used properly. But I have seen Spyderco and Benchmade use it properly.

I do appreciate G10 when I can afford it. I'm not saying G10 is not nice to have. But for me it's a "nice to have", not a "gotta have".

 

[Walking Man]

IMO.... Good ERGONOMICS far out weigh any grippiness that a knife has. If you've got good ergos, you don't need grippy material, even though it does help some times. Heck, most bowies are made of polished wood handles.

 

[hardheart]

I've had G10 on Benchmades chip several times. A little oil on the damage got the color right again so it wasn't noticeable, but G10 isn't as tough as people tell me it is. I actually really like the fact that frn can be molded to form a complete linerless handle. For a pure cutting tool, I really don't see need for more.

 

[WadeF]

Yeah, but for the sake of argument, the Starmate and Military both had a lot of flex to the handles, which is why I got rid of the Starmate, and the Military has steel liners in it's most recent incarnation does it not?

The Military just recently has steel liners, but for most of its existence it hasn't, and many swear by the Military. Also the Starmate was very popular during its time. While I prefer steel liners behind G10, wood, etc, you can make a sucessful knife with G-10 handles without steel liners.

I have a BM710 with G-10 handles and I've dropped it numerous times, carried it for nearly 7 years with keys in the same pocket, etc, and it looks the same as the day I got it.

 

[Vivi]

G-10 is essentially synthetic Micarta. The G-10 on that Byrd cannot comapre to that on say a Manix simply because not all G-10 is greated equal.

mmmotorcycle

It's a bit less grippy and has a slightly cheaper feel to it, but it's still well done G10. I got rid of my Manix but kept the Cara Cara, so that should tell you something.

IMO.... Good ERGONOMICS far out weigh any grippiness that a knife has. If you've got good ergos, you don't need grippy material, even though it does help some times. Heck, most bowies are made of polished wood handles.

Agreed. Go handle some FRN Spydercos (Native, D'allara, Endura). Great ergonomics and phenomal texturing IMO.

 

[Artfully Martial]

Well, I'm sorry to hear about other people's chipping instances with G10. I'd like to see which company's G10 chipped....my Spydercos have survived much worse than those falls and literally had no marks it all. They look completely new. For all I know, all G10 is effectively identical, but--maybe not. I'm not sure.

As per "they both feel like plastics," I can't debate the subjective judgement, but you'd be forced to commit to something like G10 and FRN feel the same to you, in which case, it seems like you might have some sort of nerve damage in your hands, or maybe we just have entirely different sensory experiences altogether.

I'm not really arguing whether not a "theory" is correct (as if being theoretical made something less cogent?), only that it defies my and I believe the vast majority of other's personal experience.

I will maintain, unless a significant number of people come forward and say otherwise, that G10 is far tougher than FRN. Of course, should a significant number of people give claims contrary to the commonly held belief, I suppose I'll have to revise my beliefs. I still won't buy cheap feeling handle materials, of course....

Have we mentioned the chemical immunities of G10 yet?

As per knives with FRN as frames, I misinterpreted you...I thought you meant G10 knives using FRN as the frame.

I know the Byrd example was supposed to provide support for the original thesis, but I think it does the opposite. Now that you can buy G10 knives for under 30 dollars it looks like G10 can be as cheap and otherwise superior...

So, now that G10, in theory if not in practice, is as cheap as FRN, can someone tell me why I should be using FRN over G10?

 

[WadeF]

It's a bit less grippy and has a slightly cheaper feel to it, but it's still well done G10. I got rid of my Manix but kept the Cara Cara, so that should tell you something.

That you wanted a smaller knife?

If FRN was a superior material than why do people want G-10 over FRN when they are buying a high end production folder? Is it because they just think G-10 is better, or is it because they know it's better from experience? I personally much prefer the feel of G-10 and the look. I have knives with FRN and they feel cheaper, and look cheaper. I prefer G-10 and I'll pay more for it if I have a choice between G-10 and FRN.

 

[Vivi]

I liked the overall design of the Cara Cara better. Both are stout as well, offer a useful blade shape and have very well-designed ergonomics, but the additional bulkiness of the Manix didn't pose any serious benefits compared to the Cara Cara for me. So you're right.

Personally, I like how G10 feels better. I don't know whether it's stronger or not though. I've seen FRN dropped and it would get scratched. My G10 knife that got dropped had some chunks taken out of it. I know G10 is denser and has less flex along with more weight, which feels good to me in a folder. That's the only reason I prefer G10, feel and weight. I'm still content with an FRN knife though.

 

[WadeF]

My G10 knife that got dropped had some chunks taken out of it. I know G10 is denser and has less flex along with more weight, which feels good to me in a folder.

The G-10 was on your Cara Cara wasn't it? Which is a lower priced line of knives by Spyderco. The G-10, as implied by someone else in this topic, may not have been very good G-10. There are different qualities of G-10 apparently. It would be interesting if someone could educate us on the different types of G-10.

 

[hardheart]

yeah but, how do we know when we're getting 'good' G10?

 

[dadouthat]

Artfully Marshall,

Please forgive me for this but you have certainly brought to my attention that I am an aesthetic barbarian in the world of shirts. I actually wear cotton (FRN) much of the time, fiberpile in cold wet conditions (grippy FRN), and don't even know if I have ever seen a cashmere shirt (G10?). But I am an old guy and did wear nylon shirts for a brief while back when they existed (aluminum?). On the other hand I do have at least one G10 knife (a Spyderco Wegner) out of a bunch of users with a wide variety of handle or scale types. I use the Wegner rarely, mostly because it just doesn't fit me well. For that knife, I have less objection to the G10 scales than to the ergonomics which just aren't right for me. Got the cheaper FRN version by Blade Tech but don't use it much either even though it is better for me ergonomically. Don't like the slab scales but the 440C does takes a sharper edge than about any knife that I own.

On a topic that can be asessed quantitatively, thermal conductivity and thermal "mass" is what makes a knife feel cold or hot when the knife is exposed to low or high temps and then used. Values are tabulated so materials are easily compared. I am not ambitous enough to look them up but for both G10 and FRN they are likely to be orders of magnitude lower than metals. FRN and G10 almost certainly not much different.

As for gloves, I welcome specific suggestions. Rubber surgical gloves keep the meat clean and hands dry but don't have much insulation. The warmer gloves that I am aware of don't leave much in the way of dexterity. And dressing out game is sort of surgery in reverse but with fewer concerns for the survival of the patient.

 

[WadeF]

yeah but, how do we know when we're getting 'good' G10?

No clue other than hoping that reputable companies like Spyderco and Benchmade will use quality materials on their higher end knives. Usually you get what you pay for.

 

[Boats]

I own exactly one FRN handled knife, a Sypderco Pacific Salt PE.

I own it for the H-1 blade, especially since the FRN handle is the worst I have ever had on a folding knife.

It flexes too much. It squirms during hard use, and until I gorilla glued it, the clip wandered off to wherever it wanted to go because it sheared the molded retention "box."

Almost anything beats FRN as a folder handle in my book. Never buying another.

 

[knarfeng]

Please forgive me for this but you have certainly brought to my attention that I am an aesthetic barbarian in the world of shirts. I actually wear cotton (FRN) much of the time, fiberpile in cold wet conditions (grippy FRN), and don't even know if I have ever seen a cashmere shirt (G10?). But I am an old guy and did wear nylon shirts for a brief while back when they existed (aluminum?). On the other hand I do have at least one G10 knife (a Spyderco Wegner) out of a bunch of users with a wide variety of handle or scale types. I use the Wegner rarely, mostly because it just doesn't fit me well. For that knife, I have less objection to the G10 scales than to the ergonomics which just aren't right for me. Got the cheaper FRN version by Blade Tech but don't use it much either even though it is better for me ergonomically. Don't like the slab scales but the 440C does takes a sharper edge than about any knife that I own.

On a topic that can be asessed quantitatively, thermal conductivity and thermal "mass" is what makes a knife feel cold or hot when the knife is exposed to low or high temps and then used. Values are tabulated so materials are easily compared. I am not ambitous enough to look them up but for both G10 and FRN they are likely to be orders of magnitude lower than metals. FRN and G10 almost certainly not much different.

As for gloves, I welcome specific suggestions. Rubber surgical gloves keep the meat clean and hands dry but don't have much insulation. The warmer gloves that I am aware of don't leave much in the way of dexterity. And dressing out game is sort of surgery in reverse but with fewer concerns for the survival of the patient.

I'm sorry, one of us has had too much beer. (I've had several. Maybe it's me.) I have no idea what you are saying. Could you rephrase that?

 

[SIFU1A]

FRN is usually the frame of a knife? Like...when? I can't think of a single one of mine with an FRN frame....

Whether or not their both technically coined plastics is irrelevent to what they feel like. One feels like a plastic, one doesn't, and that's good enough for me.

And lastly, G10 IS much more abrasion resistant than FRN....there's no way around coupling my real world experiences with any other hypothesis. FRN will scratch whereas G10 will be entirely immune 99% of the time. Remember, in a few situations I've had to use handles as hammers in lieu of the correct tool. Believe me, the G10 has been hit...I've had to spend like 15 minutes scrubbing paint off of it a few times.

spyderco delica is a FRN frame knife.

if FRN is so much better than G10 as far as grip/durability why is it no custom knifemaker offers FRN as a handle material??

because G10 is better.

 

[hardheart]

I would think it has more to do with the fact that frn gets injection molded, and that kind of equipment generally isn't sitting next to a charcoal forge.