what good is 52100

I also really like 52100. My fav FB for general carry is out of 52100 that Alan Davis made for me. I've never had any issues with it at all as far as toughness or sharpening, and no corrosion issues. It's responded well to stropping on balsa with diamond spray and that's about all the touch up it's ever needed. I just leave it in the sheath he made for it when I'm not wearing it and it's been fine in there. I don't do a lot of field work with it. I use it for EDC carry as well as hiking & camping chores, but I'm certainly not a heavy or hard user on any of my knives.
 
52100 is a great steel for a maker who has the experience and equipment to work it. It is not for a new maker, thus the list you got. It requires an excat control and soak times during the several steps of HT. A BBQ HT system won't work for 52100, it requires a good HT oven and liquid nitrogen cryo to get the most from it.
 
bladsmth said:
52100 is a great steel for a maker who has the experience and equipment to work it. It is not for a new maker, thus the list you got. It requires an excat control and soak times during the several steps of HT. A BBQ HT system won't work for 52100, it requires a good HT oven and liquid nitrogen cryo to get the most from it.
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How do you like to HT 52100?


Do you think that "11 second oil" is generally fast enough for 52100?

I know it depends on temps and section thickness too, I was just wondering what you thought.


I agree, with less control/experience 1084 or the like will make a better knife. Heating 52100 or any hyper-eutectoid or high alloy steel to non magnetic and quenching in whatever oil will probably lead to trouble. It also needs to go into the temper oven quickly after quench or cryo, the temp curve must keep on going if that makes sense..

Read this about 300 times, lol! good info ---> http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/673173-Working-the-three-steel-types
 
11 second oil is fine....52100 can even be plate cooled or air cooled in thin sections.

Here is an exerpt from an earlier post on the subject:

52100 is one of those steels that gets a lot of discussion. It can make a great knife, but the HT for it is not simple. It can make an OK knife with simpler procedures. There are greatly differing oppinions on the HT, and I will leave those folks to their own methods.
I will tell you the metallurgical way to do the HT for 52100:
The steel has 1% carbon and 1.4% chromium. This means that it is hyper-eutectiod steel with a fair amount of alloy to form chromium carbides. You will have to do the HT in such a way as to allow those elements to form the proper structures. To do this you will need a HT oven or forge that can be held at a controlled temperature for ten minutes, and a quench oil that will harden the blade. The oil should be a medium speed commercial quench oil, but Canola will do if nothing else is available. Forget about motor oil and ATF, etc.

Forging - Forge 52100 HOT. It is forged between 1700°F and 2100°F, and should not be forged in the lower red colors.
Normalize ( stress relieve) - Heat to 1650°F and air cool.
Annealing is tricky for 52100. The best way without really good equipment is to do a sub-critical anneal. Heat to 1250°F and cool to black. Then quench in oil. Do this a couple times.
Cycling the steel - This is one of the Triple Treatments often mentioned with 52100. It will get the steel ready for its final hardness and produce a fine grain. Start by heating the steel to 1650°F and quench in oil. Re-heat to 1350°F and quench in oil. Heat again to 1250° and cool to black, then quench in oil. Now the steel is ready to harden.
Hardening - Heat the steel to 1500-1525°F and hold for ten minutes. Quench in oil.
Tempering - Immediately temper at 400-450°F for two hours, cool in running water, and repeat the temper.
Cryo/Sub-zero treatment - 52100 can gain from cryo if you have the ability. Do a snap temper at 300°F and them immerse in a sub-zero bath at
-100° or in LN at -325°F. (An overnight stay in the home freezer won't do anything metallurgically.) After the sub-zero/cryo bath, temper as normal.
 
I'm not going to get into the argument about multiple quenching and other aspects, but you should check out Ed Fowler's knifetalk forum, just google search for it. I have a digital oven now, but when I started with 52100 I didn't. I am not sure what you mean by BBQ heat treat set up, but on smaller blades I use a oxy/propane torch and modified toaster oven. It does take some practice to bring the blade up to critical with a torch without overheating so I suggest practicing on scrap first.

52100 can be finicky, but will make a tough blade that holds a very good edge. There are some steels out there that might hold an edge longer, or is tougher, but so far it's the best balanced steel I've worked with in terms of edge holding, toughness, and ease of sharpening. The biggest thing when low tech heat treating any steel, especially 52100 is to test it against a blade of known performance.
 
I hate to hijack this thread, but my question is relative to 52100. Has anyone used Peters to heat treat 52100? For now my only option is to outsource the heat treatment for any knife I make. I have used knives that were made from 52100 and really enjoyed their performance. I want to use 52100 for some of my own knives now. Before I order some from Aldo, I thought I should ask about using Peters. How was your experience using them to heat treat 52100? I assume it would be beneficial to pay the extra for cryo? Thank you to anyone who may be able to answer my questions.

Adam
 
Thanks, I appreciate the information Stacy. :thumbup: :thumbup:

I have personally tried a ton of different steels and will likely keep using 52100, I really like the performance.
 
MtnDude said:
I want to use 52100 for some of my own knives now. Before I order some from Aldo, I thought I should ask about using Peters. How was your experience using them to heat treat 52100? I assume it would be beneficial to pay the extra for cryo?
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Yes, and they came out very nice. I'm not sure they even charge extra for cryo. In fact I'm so pleased with the 52100 blades, I'm strongly considering making it my go-to carbon steel over the O1 I've been using. I think it holds an edge a bit better, and it's a tad more corrosion-resistant. I'm strictly stock-removal; the stock I got from Aldo was nicely annealed and not difficult to grind. :thumbup:
 
Thanks for your reply James. That's exactly what I had hoped to hear. BTW, I would like to come and visit with you at some point if you don't mind. I'm only 30 minutes or so outside of east Knoxville. I'm a new maker and would like to visit as many makers as possible that are within a reasonable driving distance from myself. Thanks again.

Adam
 
MtnDude said:
Thanks for your reply James. That's exactly what I had hoped to hear. BTW, I would like to come and visit with you at some point if you don't mind. I'm only 30 minutes or so outside of east Knoxville. I'm a new maker and would like to visit as many makers as possible that are within a reasonable driving distance from myself. Thanks again.

Adam
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No problem, drop me a line sometime and we'll set up a visit. Bring beer and/or sandwiches :D
 
I love 52100..We use K.Cashens heat treat and it works wonderfully..Its just a great steel and takes a super fine edge..Holds it a long while too..Phillip always told me that it was a great steel but can be somewhat contraversial because of all the "Boogey Boo" surrounding it..(His word not mine) :D
 
bladsmth said:
Forging - Forge 52100 HOT. It is forged between 1700°F and 2100°F, and should not be forged in the lower red colors.
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I was just curious; Why is it so important to keep it above 1700F when forging?
 
I've used 52100 for a couple of blades now. They seem like the turned out very nice with my own heat treat, and I have a bunch more that I am going to send out to get treated along with some cpm s30v blades. When I get them back, I am going to test them against the blades I treated myself to see how well I did. I am pretty confident that I did a good heat treat. Unfortunately I don't have any liquid nitrogen for cryo, so they are not what they could be. One of the best things about 52100 is that it gets wickedly sharp. It is deceptive though. It doesn't feel sharp because the grain is so fine, but will shave hair as well as any straight razor I have ever seen.
 
Just as an aside, you can get a thermos full of liquid nitrogen from most welding supply companies. I use a stainless stanley thermos that I took the seal out so it would be able to vent. Put it in a 5 gallon bucket with towels wrapped around it for insulation and to prevent spills and it'll keep for a couple of days, long enough to heat treat if you plan ahead. Oh, and I get it from Nordan Smith for 5$, sometimes free if the rite guy is there. And big safety tip, transport in the back of a truck, not in a car as it can displace oxygen while venting. Lots cheaper and easier than a dewar for just a few blades at a time.
 
I'll check with the local welding supply store. It would be nice to be able to get some when I need it. I may try making a Dewar myself.
 
You can heat treat 52100 in your shop, all you need is a torch, some 18 second oil and a magnet, and naturally a system that is easily repeated the same each time. You also need a testing method that will accurately reflect the performance qualities of your blades.

If liquid Nitrogen makes a great improvement I have found that my work during the development of the blade needed improvement. When it comes to 52100 I believe that the use of liquid nitrogen is simply a band aid for an inadequate methods developing the blade.
 
Quality 52100 is what I call an honest steel, the more knowledge and time you put into it the greater will be your rewards.
 
Maybe it was over his head. One of my favorite blades and best performers is the MT-01 Spyderco Mule in...wait for it...52100.
 
Ed Fowler said:
You can heat treat 52100 in your shop, all you need is a torch, some 18 second oil and a magnet, and naturally a system that is easily repeated the same each time. You also need a testing method that will accurately reflect the performance qualities of your blades.

If liquid Nitrogen makes a great improvement I have found that my work during the development of the blade needed improvement. When it comes to 52100 I believe that the use of liquid nitrogen is simply a band aid for an inadequate methods developing the blade.
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I don't understand. You say simply heat the steel up with a torch.. Dump it in some 18 second oil and you have a high performance blade.

Yet many other active Bladsmiths say something way different. You make it sound even easier than doing some 1084 and what exactly would be a inadequate method ? Just so I know .
 
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