What happens when.......

Kohai999

Kohai999

Second Degree Cutter
Joined
Jul 15, 2003
Messages
12,554
The things you love the most become a reality show?

Lotta you know that I used to be a tattoo artist. Left it as a full time profession in 1998. Professional athletes were coming in the shop an awful lot, and then soccer moms. I never wanted to tattoo soccer moms. Tattooing was my thing because in modern Western society it is for misfits, and in other societies, it is part of belonging to a tribe. A tramp stamp doesn't mean much really except you are into trendy marks that mean nothing.

The industry became flooded with really bad artists looking to make a buck. Those that had been around for a long time found some sort of legitimacy and turned into primadonnas. I have no regrets in leaving....10 years was enough to learn and have some good times.

I have friends that do some of the tattoo reality shows and a lot of their experiences are bad.

Now we are starting to have reality shows for knives....some I have seen, some I have not....but predict the following.....and keep in mind, knives are a huge part of my life, and have been for 30 years, it has been part of my livelihood, but a small part:

There will be a massive influx of wannabe makers that think they know something who don' t know diddly. We see that increasing every year at shows....SHOT Show, Blade Show and The USN Gathering.....this doesn't really help established makers and just serves to confuse collectors.

As the shows develop a following, it increases the likelihood of more shows....some bent on portraying the entire community as buffons, others as portraying craftsmen as noble romantic artists....the truth is somewhere in there.

Some established makers will be sought out as some sort of scholarly mystics....and that is bad because more than a few will buy their own hype and become insufferable in the long run(I've seen it, and so have some of you). Conversely, some of the most knowledgeable makers and even collectors for that matter who might not be very photogenic or charismatic will be ignored, propping up the lesser, and marginalizing the superior.

Finished knives made the old fashioned way(hand made, one at a time) become harder to find for whatever reason, and the prices go up higher than they are now. Is this a good thing in general? Maybe. It's good for me....I have most of the knives I will ever own....I possibly may purchase less than 50 handmade knives before I give it up/die.....it's really going to make it difficult for new collectors to make it through unscathed...that is....not losing a pile of money and losing interest.

A glut of makers and minimal pool of collectors buying "smartly" has been and will continue to be one of the worst things for the overall state of custom knives.

This is open for discussion to those that have a solid and supported position.....I have interest to see what comes out of the discussion, and want it to be of value to the entire community.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
The question is: Is the customer always right?
This used to be true for sure when the customer had a solid knowledge about what he's buying, he is demanding and driving up quality... but when customers are a crowd knowledge's mean starts to level flat bottom, nevertheless driving the market with increased force....here they come the clowns and the shows ;)

But....collectors are known for their patience and their ability to spot pearls among dirt, blindfolded, so far i'm not much concerned
 
A lot of what you said, Steven, is so true!

When planning the books in my recent series ("The World of Art Knives"), I try to bring
into account 3 things regarding knife makers and knife-art displayed in them, influenced
a little also by my personal experience (I do not charge makers to be in my books!):

1. Reminding the world who the prominent world class knife makers are,
by giving them wide and very eye-pleasing exposure (8-10 pages each).

2. Displaying the knife art and personal stories of relatively new knife makers
that seem to me to have great world class potential.

3. Displaying the work of knife related artists (scrimshanders, engravers, carvers)
with their personal stories, to increase awareness to their amazing work.

I hope this contributes something to the awareness and realization of the true quality
of modern custom knves...

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)

__________________________
"The World of Art Knives Vol. III"
is available from:
"Nordic Knives"
Solvang, CA 93463 U.S.A.
NORDICKNIVES.com
___________________________
 
Last edited:
stezann said:
The question is: Is the customer always right?
This used to be true for sure when the customer had a solid knowledge about what he's buying, he is demanding and driving up quality... but when customers are a crowd knowledge's mean starts to level flat bottom, nevertheless driving the market with increased force....here they come the clowns and the shows ;)

But....collectors are known for their patience and their ability to spot pearls among dirt, blindfolded, so far i'm not much concerned
Click to expand...

Stezann, I believe this to be true of what we would call "experienced" collectors, but it is the very new that I am concerned about...they are patently NOT known for patience, or the ability to spot anything other than low hanging fruit, "bros" and preoccupied by more of an "identity" propagated and perpetuated by Instagram and Facebook.

Critical thinking vis a vis design, construction and execution is not being developed, it has been replaced with "flavor of the month" and "different to be different".

This is not in any way what we are talking about when we reference the high end pieces coming out of Italy for instance, because the amount of collectors able AND willing to afford $20,000+ knives is highly limited, maybe less than 100 worldwide....as an example of that...I have been in contact with more than 3 collectors recently who were paying up to $80,000 for Michael Walker knives three years ago that have turned some choice examples down priced for between $30,000-$50,000....simply because they "have enough".

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Last edited:
It always used to be better, didn't it? More interest will drive new makers and new collectors. Y'all talk about the collectors now like you knew everything you know now out of the womb.

An influx of new blood means you get X percentage of idiots with money to spend and no sense. They'll spend their money and probably move on. You'll also get a much smaller percentage of people with a real passion for it. They might even start out as idiots with money, but they'll get burned, learn a lesson and start paying more attention. This is true of essentially every hobby or craft that suddenly gets more attention. Always has been.

Sure, there will be more thana few annoyances for y'all through the process, but in the end you'll have a larger, younger population of dedicated collectors and a solid injection of new blood to keep things alive and fresh.
 
Trendy collectors who collect what everyone else does or what they've read about in the remaining knifevertisement magazine/catalog will drive up prices on on the perceived popular makers skewing the actual values.

New makers/smiths will get lost in the barrage of popular makers and like BFC, if it's not topical and on the first page it gets lost in the back quickly.

It's up to collectors to educate themselves, do the research talk to the makers and form your own opinion based on in hand and if you're so inclined use, (some pay big money to use, some just for looks) don't rely blindly on the majority opinion, do the work yourself to evaluate, knife and maker.

I don't know about most but before I spend any $ on knives whether they're economy production knives or full blown customs I research the neck outta the knife, it took me 25 years to buy a Sebenza, I didn't even buy it I traded for it customs require less of investigation.

The current crop of makers who have yet to cut their teeth in the industry or build a following in the community feel entitled like they should be immediately designated Mastersmiths without putting in the time. Shows like FiF propagate a rash of people who feel if they spend the money and buy the equipment their knives should be treated as if they were Mastersmith' s equal.

Bottom line is still if you're the end user, educate, handle and if possible use before buying , if you're a maker, YouTube and the History Channel are no substitute for actual experience.

I forget who said it but a fool and his money are done parted and nowhere is that more evident than with custom knives, cars and guns. Just my 2¢ YMMV.
 
Well said, TE.
You could add a lot more stuff to your list, like fishing rods, etc.
rolf
 
As usual, Steven, yours is a deep and thoughtful post. While I agree with some of your points, I have a different opinion on others. I like your analogy to the tattoo industry but perhaps I can offer a different opinion (and that is all I can offer on this subject). Sorry for the long winded response.

I agree that the tattoos have become mainstream over the past couple decades. For those in the traditional industry it must be somewhat offensive to see Soccer mom’s getting tramp stamped and Frat boys and Sorority girls getting Greek letters or butterflies. I also agree that this form of tattoo is not serious tattoo art, such that it requires a master tattoo artist. However, I don’t agree that it has no meaning, at least to those getting the tattoo. I was a Frat boy who, along with my best friend, got Greek letters on my ankle during spring break late 80’s. It meant something to us at the time and to this day. It was, and still is, a reminder of that time in college, a symbol that tied us to our fraternity and to each other. I’m sure it sounds stupid and meaningless to you, but not to us. He went on to be my best man in my wedding and is the type of friend who I could call and ask for $20K and he would wire the money without ever asking why or if I would pay him back.

I too hate tramp stamps on women and I’m sure I don’t understand their intended meaning. For some it may have no meaning other than a reflection of the amount of alcohol consumed that night. For others it may have a dark and hidden psychological meaning. Tattooed tears on a prisoner’s cheek is not art but has significant meaning to that prisoner and others who understand that code.
My tattoo was done along the Texas coast at a small crappy garage shop. The guy was likely not the greatest artist but he didn’t need to be to do what we wanted. He made a couple hundred bucks in less than an hour. He was earning a living and providing a service.

BTW, I went to grade school and JH with Guy Atchinson, who I understand went on to become one of the greatest tattoo artists in the US. He has written books on the subject and invented new techniques (so I’ve heard). His wait list for a tattoo is at least months if not years. I haven’t spoken to him in 30+ years but I would never have offended him by asking him to ink Greek letters on my ankle. There are similarities in various levels of custom knife makers. Some make custom knives to use as tools, others make true works of art for display only and many make a combination of both.

The custom knife making community is not only about the best artist doing high dollar custom masterpieces for rich collectors. Some may aspire to that level but many just want to make knives and a living. There is room and a market at all levels of custom knives. Those who have talent will find a niche and prosper. Those who don’t will fail. The market will decide. Knife forums, Facebook, Instagram, other social media, and even reality shows will play a role in that market. It will help some rise to the top and will kill off others because their products will be out there for all to see and judge.

I do agree with your opinions on the dangers to new collectors. Again, some knife makers will succeed and others will not. How does a new collector decide where to spend his/her money and be comfortable it’s not being wasted on an over-hyped flash in the pan? The best advice I can give is to develop personal relationships with makers and other collectors. This doesn’t just mean “forum friendships”. You have to get to know makers and collectors personally such that you can contact them offline to ask questions.

I’m still a relatively new collector and continue to rely on others to help educate me. I’ve sent photos of knives to Kevin Jones and said “what do you think?” I’ve sent photos of Fisk knives to Jerry himself and said “did you really make this, when, what is the material?” Same with Mike Williams, Don Hanson and JR Cook. I’ve asked potentially offensive questions to makers, like “why is this worth what you are asking?” You can ask Lisch, Quesenberry and Bing about some of my stupid questions. I have yet to have any maker or collector refuse to help or answer my questions, even stupid ones (questions not makers). I think I can get away with this because I’ve taken the time to get to know the makers I collect, supported their work by buying knives and, where possible, tried to contribute something to the community rather than just get all I can from it. I trust they understand I’m trying to learn and not trying to be offensive. I think new collectors who surround themselves with more seasoned collectors and become part of the community will do just fine. Those who just read online hype and YouTube while alone in their parents’ basement will end up wasting some money. Those type buyers also will also add little value back into the custom knife community so perhaps we shouldn’t feel too bad for them.

Again, I’m sorry for the long winded response. I had a meeting cancel and time to kill.
 
Don Hanson III said:
The past is just a memory and the future does not exist. What is there to worry about?
Click to expand...

Sounds like some deep sage wisdom, but in FACT, my friend, it is a steaming pile of dookie.

Those that ignore the past/history are doomed to repeat it. Everything circles around.

Everybody remember D.E. Henry? He made fantastic, almost surgically well constructed bowie knives at a time when no one else was. As a person, he was so abrasive that even his friends often couldn't stand to be around him.

Jerome Anders and John Fitch? Heck, I've seen folks right here on BFC talk about what a "shame" it was the collectors got burned by them. It isn't a "shame"....it's a crime, and there is no place for it in knives. You are either a person of integrity.....or you are not.

If you make more excuses than knives....you are not much of a knifemaker....even if you have more talent than anyone else in the room.

So there is part of the history that "is in the past" that until we change the "right now", we are doomed to have become our future.

mwschilling said:
As usual, Steven, yours is a deep and thoughtful post. While I agree with some of your points, I have a different opinion on others. I like your analogy to the tattoo industry but perhaps I can offer a different opinion (and that is all I can offer on this subject). Sorry for the long winded response......

I trust they understand I’m trying to learn and not trying to be offensive. I think new collectors who surround themselves with more seasoned collectors and become part of the community will do just fine. Those who just read online hype and YouTube while alone in their parents’ basement will end up wasting some money. Those type buyers also will also add little value back into the custom knife community so perhaps we shouldn’t feel too bad for them.

Again, I’m sorry for the long winded response. I had a meeting cancel and time to kill.
Click to expand...

No apologies necessary for the long post, the discussion by nature lends itself to that. I know Guy from my career days, interesting character to say the least, but his talent in the '90's was unassailable.

ANY true collector of knives has a value to the community, a great value in fact. I we as a community treat them as valuable and help guide them, they can truly become the "next generation"....if we don't and they leave, bitter and penniless....part of that is as much our fault as it is theirs.

Decent discussion so far, keep it going.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Last edited:
Kohai999 said:
Sounds like some deep sage wisdom, but in FACT, my friend, it is a steaming pile of dookie.

Those that ignore the past/history are doomed to repeat it. Everything circles around.


Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
Click to expand...

Just a different perspective my friend, neither right or wrong.
 
Don Hanson III said:
The past is just a memory and the future does not exist. What is there to worry about?
Click to expand...

I live with the same philosophy toward life. And while the past is, indeed, just a memory, that's exactly what it is - something we remember.

As far as the future goes, I let it take care of itself by just doing whatever's next.
 
I don't think it will change the knife world permanently or be like tattoos.
It will be like...comic books.

In the 1990's, a huge glut of comic book shops arose to cash in on the immense popularity that hit all of a sudden. You see, all those comics from the 1960's had become popular...cash was to be had from new collectors.

So the industry pumped out TONS of "Issue #1", every hero got a new series so a new #1 could be had.
"Special Collector's Edition!"..."Collectable Card Inside!"
They started selling them sealed in plastic bags, so the ravages of time (and reading them :rolleyes:) could be avoided.

The culmination might be seen in the "Death of Superman" comic that was selling for $400 within days of its release...

Well, fast forward to 2003, and I went to one of the few remaining comic shops (Windsor had 2, compared to the 8 that Chatham--a city 4 times smaller--had in the 90's), and I saw "Death of Superman" on the wall, first printing, sealed in the black plastic bag.
How much for this highly collectable comic that had gone for $400 eleven years prior?
$15

The collectors of fashionable things had gone elsewhere.
The same will happen with knives because, unlike tattoos, you cannot impress people on the beach or at the gym with them. ;)
And soccer moms don't go for them either.
 
I find that on a whole, collecting anything rarely results in monetary gain. If you are thrilled by the hunt and the prize, then you will likely consider it a success. If it's your primary long term income strategy, then you probably should be looking elsewhere.
 
Kohai999 said:
Sounds like some deep sage wisdom, but in FACT, my friend, it is a steaming pile of dookie.

Those that ignore the past/history are doomed to repeat it. Everything circles around.

Everybody remember D.E. Henry? He made fantastic, almost surgically well constructed bowie knives at a time when no one else was. As a person, he was so abrasive that even his friends often couldn't stand to be around him.

Jerome Anders and John Fitch? Heck, I've seen folks right here on BFC talk about what a "shame" it was the collectors got burned by them. It isn't a "shame"....it's a crime, and there is no place for it in knives. You are either a person of integrity.....or you are not.

If you make more excuses than knives....you are not much of a knifemaker....even if you have more talent than anyone else in the room.

So there is part of the history that "is in the past" that until we change the "right now", we are doomed to have become our future.



No apologies necessary for the long post, the discussion by nature lends itself to that. I know Guy from my career days, interesting character to say the least, but his talent in the '90's was unassailable.

ANY true collector of knives has a value to the community, a great value in fact. I we as a community treat them as valuable and help guide them, they can truly become the "next generation"....if we don't and they leave, bitter and penniless....part of that is as much our fault as it is theirs.

Decent discussion so far, keep it going.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
Click to expand...

Excellent post and well said.
 
Not that I think this would ever happen, but....
If selecting the knife makers and the subject matter of the shows were organized by people who were knowledgeable about knife making, then the shows would have a better chance of portraying the subject accurately. CKCA & ABS could do a lot to get them on track.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top