What happens when.......

As someone very new to collecting custom knives (within the past year or two), this is a very interesting discussion. Due to one of the sub topics of this thread being new collectors, perhaps my experiences will be of some use?

I was first introduced to custom knives through blade forums and lurking in this sub forum. The first custom knife I bought was through the Knife Makers for sale area and it was made by a hobbyist just starting out. This was a learning experience and even though the knife is extremely unrefined, I do not regret buying it.

Since then, I have put far more into learning and researching custom knives that catch my eye. Unfortunately I am unable to travel to knife shows so my initial interest always stems from how a certain knife looks. People like Mr. Garsson significantly affect how I perceive certain makers or knives which inevitably affects what I purchase.

As a full time student, my knife collecting is limited by my budget as well as by the ivory ban in NJ.

I also buy all my knives with the intention of using them; This affects how many knives I own at a single point in time.

In response to Mr. Garrsons posts, I believe that it is very important for those experienced and passionate collectors who do buy "smartly" to influence and guide those who are inexperienced and new. For me, a lot of guidance came indirectly from those who post in this sub forum and for that I thank them.
 
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It may not be the case but it sounds like you might be missing an important cohort of buyers: knife users.

Like most people here I know a lot more about knives than the vast majority of consumers. And like many I really know very little about collecting, at least in a pure sense. In fact I know just enough to realise that I know bugger all. Right now it just doesn't matter to me.

For me a knife is a solution to a problem. A handmade or custom knife is one which appeals to me more because it's more aesthetically pleasing, more innovative, more effective, unique, made by someone I like or a combination of these. Even though I don't use all of my knives I appreciate their form and how they were designed and executed to perform their function.

For me, a poor knife is one which doesn't solve any problems, or one where the maker has frankly cut corners through laziness. While some of those makers will do well for a time I think the ineffectiveness of their product will mean that most will either change or fail.

Conversely the makers whose work solves problems well will get a following (although a bit of marketing helps) and hopefully flourish. As they continue some of them will become new "greats". Many will just have a successful career and that's okay.

Unlike tattoos, knives are useful to everyone. They won't appeal to everyone in the way they do to you or I but the more people exposed to the craft the bigger the market and the greater the opportunity for makers to step up or develop. Sure there will be a fair amount of rubbish knives; ignore them and keep an eye on the interesting ones.
 
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Everyone pays for their own education with time, effort and treasure. Some will use their time more efficiently and progress further and faster. Others never figure it out, get bored and tire of wasting treasure. That guy Darwin, was probably on to something with his theory. Caveat emptor!
 
STeven I first want to say that I'm glad we have you here. I've been reading customs for almost two years and at first found you abrasive and didn't always see the wisdom in some of your comments, but I've come to learn that there is much in what you say. Even if I don't always agree with you ;) A lot of folks on this site have a great deal of knowledge but not all share it with the community or speak up when they know it will not be a popular opinion and I have a lot of respect for you in that regard. Thanks!

On the subject of "Forged in Fire" since that is what we're talking about here I have to disagree a bit with you initial post. I think a lot has been covered that I agree with so I'll try to keep this from dragging out and touch on something I think Chris started in the post above.

One of the first things that struck me as crazy when I got interest in making custom knives was the disproportionately small market for custom knives. I was blown away. Why I had that taken back was simple; knives are one of if not the oldest tool man has created and continues to use to this day. In fact I would argue that unlike most every other market out there from cars to cell phones, that just about every adult person on this planet uses a knife on a daily basis. Whether to spread butter, open a box or skin game knives are omnipresent in our lives. They are used for an unimaginable number of tasks that all of us rely on daily from house wives to the most burly Alaskan bushman. Yet the custom knife market does not reflect that...

With all the goofy reality shows out there glorifying crap that we don't need or care about I say its about time some light was shed in this direction. Of course as others have said that means there will be more jackasses thinking a Don Hanson should cost a 100$ or that because they are shelling out 2k they should get their knife in 3 days from Amazon (one to make it and two for prime shipping). But in my opinion that already exists, we'll just see it on a larger scale if this show takes off. And sure there will be a temporary swelling of the noob class of buyers and collectors but that always levels out in time. Some will be educated, some will go back to Walmart and some will continue to buy from new makers at budget price, but who need the bump to keep buying belts!

I have not been in the custom world long enough to offer an educated opinion on trends and differences from the past to the future. And to Don's and your point we can only try to shape the future based on past experiences and failures, but we have no real control over it either.

I will offer my opinion based on what I have learned from the folks here and elsewhere. I think this is just an unknown field to so many people out there who use knives but know absolutely nothing about them. I would say that 9.5 out of 10 would say "stainless" if you asked what kind of steel their knives were made of. Those same folks buy stamped out foreign made knives from walmart and the grocery store every year. This exposure could see a sizable percentage of those folks buying knives from a guy making mid level kitchen knives (not junk, but not embellished with say coined spacers or damascus steel). The customer will be happy and the maker will be also. I'm curious are you referring to this from a general hand made knives perspective or just the collector side?

To close it out a lame and completely unrelated reality show gave one man the opportunity to film his own show. Les Stroud's Survivorman. Because of that every state I would wager now has one or more happy survival/bushcraft instructors making money and saved from a soul deadening cubicle or line job doing exactly what he loves. Not a bad thing in my eyes, I've seen this first hand!

Keep posting this stuff!

-Clint
 
Great discussion. Thank you all. I've been a collector of sorts for most of my life, and a professional maker for the last decade or so. Obviously, I have mixed feelings about the new "reality" shows on knives, since knives are literally my life. Clint, you make some excellent points. Like many other makers, I was contacted, and invited to participate in the FIF show. Like many others, I declined. One of my reasons for doing so is that I feel the responsibility to educate the public about our community with the TRUTH. I had concerns that any TV show was going to be more interested in ratings than facts. The jurry is still out on how FIF will portray us. On the other hand, Clint is absolutely correct that a little more exposure of any kind is rather over due for mans first building block of technology, the trusty blade.

A.
 
DesRosiers said:
......On the other hand, Clint is absolutely correct that a little more exposure of any kind is rather over due for mans first building block of technology, the trusty blade. A.
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Well, at least I am trying my best with 11 large volumes on the subject,
and hundreds of feedback stories about new makers and collectors all
over the world that got "bitten" when exposed to them and became either
knife makers or serious collectors...

These were mostly people who never thought of glancing at a "Knife Magazine"
but remained in awe when seeing the custom knife world as it was displayed
in my books, and got hooked...

I am talking of about close to 65,000-75,000 copies of my books INCLUDING
several large counterfeited editions printed in China that were even sold
on Amazon.com...

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)
 
Kohai999 said:
Stezann, I believe this to be true of what we would call "experienced" collectors, but it is the very new that I am concerned about...they are patently NOT known for patience, or the ability to spot anything other than low hanging fruit, "bros" and preoccupied by more of an "identity" propagated and perpetuated by Instagram and Facebook.

Critical thinking vis a vis design, construction and execution is not being developed, it has been replaced with "flavor of the month" and "different to be different".

This is not in any way what we are talking about when we reference the high end pieces coming out of Italy for instance, because the amount of collectors able AND willing to afford $20,000+ knives is highly limited, maybe less than 100 worldwide....as an example of that...I have been in contact with more than 3 collectors recently who were paying up to $80,000 for Michael Walker knives three years ago that have turned some choice examples down priced for between $30,000-$50,000....simply because they "have enough".

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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What about the high end $20,000+ pieces coming out of America? Are there more than 100 collectors worldwide for $20,000+ pieces coming out of America? And there are a sh!tload of American knives asking those prices, too. Why single out Italy?

By the way, I am not aware of any unembellished or even lightly embellished knives from Italy that the maker, or even dealers, sell for more than $20,000. When you are at those prices, a LOT of it is in engraving and gold appellation. I can buy very nice, high end, examples of knives by any of the Italian makers for way, way under $20,000. I can even find some very nicely embellished ones for a lot less than that.
 
Burl Source said:
Not that I think this would ever happen, but....
If selecting the knife makers and the subject matter of the shows were organized by people who were knowledgeable about knife making, then the shows would have a better chance of portraying the subject accurately. CKCA & ABS could do a lot to get them on track.
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The problem is that "reality" shows aren't really interested in "reality". They get more ratings with controversy, misinformation and drama.

I believe as Steven predicts... There will be an influx of Bladetards and Collectards that will poop in the river. That said, I firmly believe that if we just hold tight and wait for the turds to float by, the water will eventually be safe to play in again.
 
I think the world of knives will ebb and flow but perhaps the pace will be quickened by the new exposure of TV land. I think things like You Tube have shown in smaller waves what we can expect. I think sure we are going to see some flash in the pan stuff but we will ultimately see some real winners poke their heads out and the community will benefit from it. When I think about how I learned to make knives pre Internet, it's a wonder I made anything usable before meeting Jim Schmidt due to the overwhelming misinformation I'd received. With today's resources, what previously took years to learn can now be seen in hours on line and now on TV. While I do wish the shows I see on TV were a bit different, I am still very happy to see knives on TV :) Think about it! The rest of the civilized world seems to want to make knives go away and here they are being celebrated on TV with enough viewers to get producers and sponsors to take notice! Maybe we aren't the "small group" we thought we were :D
 
Rick Marchand said:
I firmly believe that if we just hold tight and wait for the turds to float by, the water will eventually be safe to play in again.
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A rising turd floats all boats?
 
I agree with Bill Siegle above, this exposure is good for the knife making future as a whole. I like everyone else wish that it was a little more realistic and that the judges and/or contestants would at least once each show tell the viewing audience that this is extreme bladesmithing for TV viewing only and that most makers would spend a lot more time and effort in making a knife before putting their name or stamp on it. Good viewing as far as I am concerned, at least we( as knifemakers ) can maybe learn something from it.
 
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Your perspectives on things are very interesting for a rookie like me.
 
DesRosiers said:
Like many other makers, I was contacted, and invited to participate in the FIF show. Like many others, I declined. One of my reasons for doing so is that I feel the responsibility to educate the public about our community with the TRUTH.

A.
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The high road. Well taken, my friend.
 
One thing's for sure, the show is happening so I guess everyone WILL see what's going to happen. :D
 
Mecha said:
One thing's for sure, the show is happening so I guess everyone WILL see what's going to happen. :D
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It's not a single show....it's MOST shows about knives....and it isn't much to smile about.

WE will certainly see....and like I said in my OP......after 30 years in the game, i'm not to worried....but those who ARE competing for the same dollar might should be.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
It's not a single show....it's MOST shows about knives....and it isn't much to smile about.

WE will certainly see....and like I said in my OP......after 30 years in the game, i'm not to worried....but those who ARE competing for the same dollar might should be.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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In response to your OP, the idea of "collectors" of tattoos making poor decisions is certainly able to make me grin; I've collected a few myself (as well as some real crap swords). Poorly-executed and/or regretful tattoos could be considered a long-established part of the modern tattoo world. Likewise, the possible effects you've outlined for the effect of knife-related reality shows seem to already be in full-swing! Ultimately, I think the extra exposure to the history and continued existence of fine blade-making will create way more collectors and supporters than makers. :)
And who knows what talent may come out of the woodwork.
 
Mecha said:
Ultimately, I think the extra exposure to the history and continued existence of fine blade-making will create way more collectors and supporters than makers. :)
And who knows what talent may come out of the woodwork.
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If that happens, Sam....I'll be truly tickled....but....it is unlikely.

Beginning collectors and users of custom knives often have to deal with issues that they don't expect:

Quality and design that are not what they were hoping for, because they don't have enough experience to communicate in the correct language
Extended wait times, especially in the case of popular makers......for many reasons, most of which WE all know
Having to take care of these knives, because many of today's collectors/users come from a "disposable"/"it should take care of itself" mindset

Believe me, I love the ENTIRE community, and would love nothing more than to see the number of collectors double or triple in the long run, and experience a long term renaissance.....just based on MY experiences, which are considerable, I'm not expecting it....and would love to be pleasantly surprised.

We had the "Tom Cruise" effect at the dojo when the "Last Samurai" came out....and it yielded out of 10 new students, 1 long term student.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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