What has happened to Cold Steel?

I have a hard time believing that after all those years of business, Cold Steel suddenly decided that price point is more important than steel quality.

Especially when their web site talks about how their AUS8a "outperforms ATS-34".

Even if the knives are produced by someone else, they are produced to Cold Steel's specs.

I may not be an insider at a knife company, but when a business suddenly starts producing questionable products on the verge of being knockoffs, and starts lowering their prices and quality, I start to wonder what's going on.

My guess is that times are tough at Cold Steel.

I think competition is getting fierce in the lower end of production knives. Companies like CRKT are really starting to produce some excellent products for very reasonable prices. And, beyond the Ti-Lite, Cold Steel has not released any really noteworthy products recently.

IMHO, the Recon 1 line was a total flop. Even with the reduction in price, they are overpriced at MSRP $99 with 420 steel - compare them to the BM Griptilian (msrp $95, 440C steel).

I think that the lowering in price and quality is a desperate response to poor sales. "Reach a broader market", to me, sounds like a euphemism for "prevent bankruptcy".

Sure hope I'm wrong.

Also, it sure sounds like I need to order that "More Proof" video. It sounds interesting.

-- Rob
 
Gee...
I had forgotten why I stopped reading the copy a long time ago...

Lynn is full of bullsh*t... a snake oil salesman...
But, that is the marketing game...

After reading many comparison charts, aus8, 440b, and ATS 34 are very similar steels... but outperformance? I'm not so sure...

After all, if he were not controversial, would we be sitting here talking about his knives? like they say... no publicity is bad publicity.

However, Lynn's knives are good. They stand up to what I throw at them and they are inexpensive.

I guess the biggest hindrance to these knives is the very man who's supposed to be advocating them.
 
Not knowing the marketing strategy of CS, one can assume that marketing and market share pricing drive the change to lesser quality materials.
Unfortunately for a bunch of fairly jaded, educated knife buyers this does not sit well. I have to think that for every person that will buy a $200.00 knife there is 10 that will buy a $50.00 knife.
I have several CS knives bought 9 or 10 years ago, but they have never had much appeal to me.
It is to bad to see the change has they made what was considered cutting edge knives afew years back.
 
DngrRuss1, I do appreciate your post. I don't know if you are an "inside" man with Cold Steel or not, but I respect what you have to say. You're right about Taiwan and how the quality has dramatically increased and the reasons why Cold Steel chose to have knives manufactured there, but I find that the educated knife buyer wants more than just Zytel, Kraton, AUS-8 and Tantos, no matter if it's made in Japan, Taiwan or the USA.

In the past Cold Steel rightfully earned the reputation of putting out razor sharp, sturdy knives. Their Voyagers for example, were well designed and could easily compete with the likes of Spyderco, Paragon, SOG and Outdoor Edge (who were producing similar Zytel handled lockbacks at the time). This was all nice and dandy for those who wanted a good knife that was not too pricey and needed to be replaced if it was lost or severely damaged, but look what happened.

Companies like Benchmade and Spyderco began raising the bar offering more innovative designs, using more G-10 and new materials like carbon fibre, and higher grade steels. Soon Microtech, Speed-Tech, EDI, MOD, & Emerson Knives arrived on the scene. While Speed-Tech and EDI are no longer in business, they managed to make a noticable impact on the knife market. Why? Because they came out with fresh ideas using higher quality materials. Higher tolerances, custom collaborations, innovative designs, this is the kind of stuff that has made the educated knife buying public take note of other knife companies.

Benchmade's Axis-Lock, Kershaw's Speed-Safe, CRKT's affordable custom collaborations, and Spyderco's ever changing lineup. This is the kind of stuff that has made Cold Steel fall behind in it's popularity. A lack of change is the reason why I personally don't find Cold Steel knives that appealing anymore. Think about it. Other than an expensive line of well made swords, most of Cold Steel's line consists of Zytel, Kraton, AUS-8 and Carbon V. I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing, but there is no change, no advancements in Cold Steel's lineup.

I don't claim to be a knife expert, but I've been buying and using knives enough to know high quality and innovation when I see it. The basic quality of Cold Steel may still be there, but there is no innovation, no fresh new ideas in my opinion. How about using some G-10, more Micarta, anodized aluminum in different colors and higher-end steels like VG-10, 154CM or even BG-42? How about some custom collaborations with a few of the top knife makers in the industry? Other knife companies have done it, why can't Cold Steel? Even revamped Voyagers with drop point blades, reversible pocket clips and different colored handles would be a change. How about it?
 
i used to own a CS29LT .. and was satisfied with the performance. After selling it off (downsizing my collection), i come across another Taiwan made AUS8 blade: Gigand ..
Of course the price range is different, thus the solid feeling i found on CS is missing with Gigand. However, for the price vs performance, both will do well. Taiwan has really improved i guess ..

i agree with cosmic superchunk that CS should innovate more, and having a drop point AUS8 Voyager in blue anodized aluminium handle would be great! Why not? Or maybe in other higher steel, with Ti Handle? The design is good, so if increase of quality is applied, it will appeal more ..

(they can still keep the cheaper steel for general public, which are happy with having just enough sharpness)
 
Smiling said:
This thread really needs resurrection in 2020 :D
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Wow... no kidding! According to the group opinion Cold Steel should be long gone, and after the required bash of LT he should be, too!

I noticed it is the same criticisms that get launched against so many knife companies which is "I am so frustrated with them. Why don't they listen to me to show them how to market and for company direction of product development? I can help them with design, steel selection, and handle materials so they can really be successful, but also do the right thing by the knife community".

This was 17 years ago... maybe the folks here don't know everything after all. Betcha CS makes it another 17. I won't be here to see it but I would take that bet if I would be.

Robert
 
midnight flyer said:
Wow... no kidding! According to the group opinion Cold Steel should be long gone, and after the required bash of LT he should be, too!

I noticed it is the same criticisms that get launched against so many knife companies which is "I am so frustrated with them. Why don't they listen to me to show them how to market and for company direction of product development? I can help them with design, steel selection, and handle materials so they can really be successful, but also do the right thing by the knife community".

This was 17 years ago... maybe the folks here don't know everything after all. Betcha CS makes it another 17. I won't be here to see it but I would take that bet if I would be.

Robert
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I also bet they'll be here for another 17 years. But question is - as which "kind" of brand?

From what I see they used to be considered as high end 17 years ago.
They were considered as best buy in recent years and when I started to get interested into knives.
With current switch to 4034 stainless they're now heading to flea market.

Which is not a bad thing for their company, just see M-tech, Tac-Force, Frost, Gerber... they are selling tons and have huge profit margins. that's however bad for consumers who buy their knives with intentions to use them.
 
The question is will CS get any respect? For decades now, CS would come up in a thread and catch a lot of flak. But, even the most hardcore knife snob could be expected to interrupt their criticism of LT and say something like, "but man, that Master Hunter I keep in my pack for 20 years has been the best field knife I've used...". CS has always had some undeniably solid designs made with bullet proof materials, which most could agree were great knives for the money. Are those days gone?
 
jdk1 said:
The question is will CS get any respect? For decades now, CS would come up in a thread and catch a lot of flak. But, even the most hardcore knife snob could be expected to interrupt their criticism of LT and say something like, "but man, that Master Hunter I keep in my pack for 20 years has been the best field knife I've used...". CS has always had some undeniably solid designs made with bullet proof materials, which most could agree were great knives for the money. Are those days gone?
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Well I myself used to be Cold Steel fan as I'm using SK-5 Recon Tanto for years and it's been used for tasks that would damage other knives and yet I never had single issue with it.

But this time around, they are using 4034 stainless to make their flagships. More and more of their 3V knives are discontinued, and more and more of their knives are switched to very low end stainless steels like 4034 with excuse that this steel is very good quality and they don't have better option (despite 52100 and SK-5 they already use or O1 they used in the past).

Cold Steel can make a great product, but they chose not to this time around. And more and more of their videos are edited.
 
Marketing strategy... If L. Thompson is good at one thing, it's definitely marketing. Although he's said to have designed some very nice knives (a puukko, a hunter skinner with Pendleton and some pretty flashing knives like the Natchez Bowie, just in my book). The proof will be in the pudding. Just keep in mind that knifenuts are a very small niche in the knife market.
 
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Smiling said:
I also bet they'll be here for another 17 years. But question is - as which "kind" of brand?

From what I see they used to be considered as high end 17 years ago.
They were considered as best buy in recent years and when I started to get interested into knives.
With current switch to 4034 stainless they're now heading to flea market.

Which is not a bad thing for their company, just see M-tech, Tac-Force, Frost, Gerber... they are selling tons and have huge profit margins. that's however bad for consumers who buy their knives with intentions to use them.
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I'm laughing both at the idea that Cold Steel was ever considered particularly high end and the idea that 'people with intentions to use their knives' buy high end folders.

I've been a fan of Cold Steel knives for at least 17 years and they are now what they were then, a company that sells at a variety of price points with most of their popularity coming from, as far as I can tell, some very solid bang-for-your-buck values and their, for lack of a better word, novelty items.

The switch to 4034 seems rather ludicrous to me, but unless they swap out all the S35VN and Aus10 they're using comparisons to companies like M-Tech and Frost are laughable alarmism.
 
I bought a Pro Lite Sport to give to a friend who bought a crappy Chinese knife for himself. I don't think the Pro Lite is much of an upgrade. I certainly wouldn't be displaying my knife knowledge prowess by stoking him with a "real" knife. Guess it'll remain in my glove box until I come across a friend with no knife.

Edit: I love my 12 year old Trailmaster!!
 
bigsurbob said:
I bought a Pro Lite Sport to give to a friend who bought a crappy Chinese knife for himself. I don't think the Pro Lite is much of an upgrade. I certainly wouldn't be displaying my knife knowledge prowess by stoking him with a "real" knife. Guess it'll remain in my glove box until I come across a friend with no knife.

Edit: I love my 12 year old Trailmaster!!
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I thought the same when I got my pro lite sport. After getting to tanto and clip point versions I realized that the thumbstuds made a big difference over the oval hole in the sport.

They are made of hollow ground 4116, but cut well and are my go-to beater folders. The clip, ergonomics, and demko lock are great attributes for a ~$25 folder.
 
I have owned several and presently have two. A large carbon 5 leaf bladed Twistmaster is still my go-to lightweight camp knife and my GI Tanto is the sharpened prybar/puttyknife I use for serious around the house repairs. Both are perfect for what they were designed for.
 
Fair enough... haven't really given it much of a chance. And yeah, it's <$25. Going mostly by feel. I'm sure my "champagne taste" is affecting my judgment!
jux t said:
I thought the same when I got my pro lite sport. After getting to tanto and clip point versions I realized that the thumbstuds made a big difference over the oval hole in the sport.

They are made of hollow ground 4116, but cut well and are my go-to beater folders. The clip, ergonomics, and demko lock are great attributes for a ~$25 folder.[/QUOTE
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CS offers a variety of steels, including CTS-XHP, which IMHO is a superb cutlery steel, sort of D2 on steroids. I prefer Carbon V (Master Hunter, SRK) but CS offers the Master Hunter and several other FBs in 3V now, and a number of other very tough cutlery steels. I prize my original tanto with the brass guard and pommel -- don't know what the steel is but it holds an excellent edge. (It's actually a second, due to a tiny blemish on the blade -- I got it directly from Lynn Thompson who courteously replied to my letter suggesting a more moderate tone to his ads, and offered it to me at a reduced price.) Lynn Thompson is one of the most innovative knife designers (and marketers :rolleyes:) we've had over the last several decades, and I've never had a knife from his shop that didn't cut well.
 
LOL "Carbon V" is what CS calls their 1085.
Tough? Yes. 1085 is that. It is also one step "below" 1095, which has 0.1% more carbon.

Which 420? 420HC? 420j2?
I don't know, but since it is "Sub Zero Quenched" I'd guess 420HC, which just happens to be the standard steel for all USA produced Buck knives, and all Case knives with "True Sharp" blades.
There is nothing wrong with 420HC. My Buck 110's with it hold an edge long enough to peel and gut three whitetail before the edge needs touched up with a dry leather strop. (you can use your belt or boot)

440A? That is what Schrade (USA) and all of the Schrade family of brands (Camillus, Ulster, Old Timer, Uncle Henry, Imperial, to name a few) used for the "Schrade +" stainless steel blades. (all Schrade USA carbon steel blades were/are 1095)

I have some CS blades.
My Kudu and Elands have "4116 Krupp" blades, as does my FINN BEAR. "4116 Krupp" (AKA: "1.4116 Krupp") is a "simple" "low end" stainless steel, like 440A is.
All the CS machetes I have are coated 1055. The lowest possible "high carbon steel". (the 10xx steels below 1055 are mild steels that cannot be hardened or tempered)
So what?
The machetes have always chopped/cut what I needed to trim. (mainly coconut tree fronds, and removing the husk and opening coconuts.)
My Kudu's and Elands have cut everything I've used them for. (I'm sure the FINN BEAR will too, I haven't had a chance to use it yet.)

Cold Steel got "1489 cuts on 3 foot of cardboard with their 440A" (as claimed in post number 15)
That is truly amazing. Especially since that beats every single one of the 48 steels @Larren tested. (see the stickie for details)

Sorry, but I have to call BS on that claim. 440A is a good steel, holds an edge long enough to peel and gut between 2 and 2 point 5 deer before the edge needs refreshed.
Having worked at SWIFT when I was in High School, (in a plant that made turkey rolls) it was my job to unbox frozen whole turkeys and break down the boxes for the incinerator. (the birds were tossed into large stainless steel tubs (thirty birds per tub) to be cooked.)
I can tell you from experience that Schrade's 440A, which had/has an excellent heat treat would not break down more than 195~205 cardboard boxes before it was dull. A little better than a Stanley box knife, perhaps, but not enough for a single 8 hour shift.
440A is a good blade steel, and it will meet the needs of at least 98% of users who want a stainless blade. It does not, however, hold an edge longer than 440C, D2, 5160, 1095, (with proper heat treats and edge geometry, of course) or any of the modern "Super Steels", which it would have to do to cut that much cardboard cleanly,without resharpening.

At the very least, CS either (a) used several knives and swapped them off camera, (b) if a single knife was used, they sharpened it several times off camera, or (c) lied about what the blade was in that particular knife (and sharpened or replaced it at least once off camera.)
 
Carbon v was 50100 or 0170-6 steel wasnt bad, and the heat treat process was formulated by Dan Maragni which also made a difference.Look at how sr101/52100 is with a good heat treat. I have nothing but positive results from all the Cold Steel knives i have. I was clearing a path in the woods, too lazy to walk back to the house and drag the chainsaw back, i cut through15 feet of tough rhodedendrums with a carbon v trailmaster with very little effort. Ive had similar results with the drop forged survivalist bowie. Both incredible knives. Thats why id hate to see some of these great knives made in 4034.
 
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