What is all this I keep reading about Liner Locks being junk?

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Fisher of Men

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Feb 22, 2005
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I just wonder why so many people are saying that liner locks are junk?

I have a Benchmade 880BT with titanium liners and it has benchmade's modified liner lock. That freaking thing "clicks" into place solid every time it's opened. Never ever had it fail on me. After hearing all this complaining about liner locks I even spine whacked that knife darn hard a good few times. Nothing. Still rock solid. Does Benchmade always make liner locks this good? Cause I gotta tell ya....my liner lock kicks butt. I like it better than Axis locks and Lock Backs.

What gives? :)

Cheers,
Fisher of Men
 
Basically, it comes down to this: Liner locks are an 'old' design. Everybody wants to jump on the next best thing, whether it be the integral lock, MBC rated lock back (which I give all the credit in the world to Spyderco for making the lock-back 'high-tech' again), or the Axis lock (my personal favorite). There is absolutely nothing wrong with a liner lock (Benchmade does the best liner-locks on the market, IMO)! I think it has become frowned upon because of the cheapo companies making liner locks with cheap material and no precision.
 
Hi All-

Some people like to complain that a lock isn't "strong enough" for their use of a folding knife. It doesn't matter that they only use the knife to slit open mail, spread butter on bagels, and cut cotton string. :cool:

The linerlock is a great design that will provide reliable service for many years. One of my favorites is a Benchmade Mini-AFCK that has been going strong for nearly a decade and gets extremely frequent use. It has flown all over the world and has yet to let me down. Enjoy your knife!

~ Blue Jays ~
 
J., gotta disagree. It's not that liner locks are an old design, although there's on denying it's just plain good marketing to seek differentiation by introducing new lock types and that could be part of it. But most assuredly, that's not nearly the entire story. IMO, liner locks are being recognized, by more and more people, as a lock type that is so difficult to consistently make reliable, that other lock formats should be looked at. That doesn't just mean newer lock formats are being looked at as better choices, but older ones like the lockback, are now being recognized by many as a better way to go. I'm pleased as punch to see it; I dislike the liner lock format due to its lack of reliability.
 
Well

They can't be operated left handedly

They don't wear well at all

They can get stuck and be painful to force unlocked.

They cause blade play

You can't fwing them open and closed at a whim like you can an axis lock, you have to put your finger in the way of the blade.

They remind me of sloppy chinese copies that most collectors don't waste time on.



To argue in the other direction.. a lot of custom knives are liner locks. Personally I don't care for them or Integral locks. I'll take a lockback, axis, or balisong anyday.

I've never seen a liner lock knife that I liked. The only ones I own are 10 dollar swap meet specials, because for 10 bucks you don't feel so bad
 
The Linerlock is not junk when properly made. The problem is that in many instances this is not the case. Even some high end custom knives have had problematic Linerlocks.

Linerlocks need to be made to very tight tolerances and they need to be made strong enough. This is quite often not the case.
 
A liner lock for daily carry in a civilian environment can be fine. Some models are overbuilt to the point of ... reliability. :)

But the design is weak in resisting torque. If you have the tip stuck in something and you twist it out, the liner is more likely to give way than other locks.

That many of them do hold up well is deceptive, because you won't know until too late which one is imperfect, and imperfect in this case means failure, well before the materials themselves fail.
 
nothing wrong with a well made liner lock, some of the best makers on the panet make either exclusivly or mostly liner locks, ernie emerson, pat crawford, elishiwitz, terzuola, there are plenty of good ones out there, as far as productions go BM, MT, EKI, spyderco, the buck/strider 880's are almost frame locks they are so overbuilt, lotsa good liner locks around.

the problems arise from the fact that it is a precision system with tight tolerances and will fail if it gets outta spec due to wear/etc. but imho it should take a lot of wear to wear it to failure, thats not always the case though, some fail with little/no wear, some are better/worse in this regard, gen'ly the higher priced custom liner lock isnt gonna fail anywhere near like a CRKT/etc will,

am sure frame locks and compression locks are better, axis lock too, but if the knife is well made i dont think that the liner lock is bad at all.
 
Fisher of Men said:
I just wonder why so many people are saying that liner locks are junk?
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Oh man, you just *had* to poke the hornet's nest, dincha? ;)

It's a prejudice. Like most prejudices, it derives from a kernel of truth, but also like most prejudices, people extrapolate them too broadly. :rolleyes:

Yeah, there are a lot of crap liner lock knives out there. Not because the liner lock is inherently crap, but because a crap liner lock is probably the cheapest lock you can put on a cheap, crap knife. All it takes is a slot in the paper-thin soft-stainless liner, and a little bending. Voila! A $5 "locking" folder! :barf:

If you can stomach it, take a look at the Frost or United Cutlery section of a knife catalog or online store. Of the locking folders, 90% of them are liner locks.

However, there are plenty of good liner locks out there, too, from the likes of Benchmade, Spyderco, Emerson, and the other "usual suspects", as well as a helluva lot of top custom makers. The good ones are engineered and fitted just like a good frame lock, and I've never heard anyone here try to say that frame locks are crap. Those "good" liner locks have 100% engagement when new, on the left side of the tang; the tang is angled, or better yet convexed, to maintain tight lock-up even when it wears. You can spine-whack 'em till the cows come home, twist the point, whatever you like, they're just as reliable as a framelock.

I'm betting every one of the liner-lock haters has had a bad experience, a mid-range (CRKT*, Cold Steel, Buck, Gerber etc.) mass-market knife that was made on a Friday afternoon or a Monday morning, where the liner lock failed in hard use. (Not to minimize the experience, having ANY lock failure is a frightening thing!) They then compare that experience to the faultless reliability of their facorite high-end folders, and conclude that ALL liner locks are just finger-amputations waiting to happen. :eek:

It's not fair to compare, say, CRKT's Quality Control to, say, Benchmade's. CRKT is after a much bigger market, and has to sell at a lower price point to compete with that Chinese-made crap. They know how to build a proper liner lock, but statistically, some bad ones are gonna slip through. Caveat emptor: check out the lock before you buy, or return 'em if you feel they aren't safe.

It's like getting bit by a dog when you're a kid, and from then on, not liking dogs. It's understandable, if perhaps a wee bit irrational. ;) The haters just haven't met the right "puppy" yet; if they were to spend some quality time with an open mind and a properly made liner lock folder like a Spyderco Military, Benchmade Opportunist or Pardue, Emerson Commander or equivalent, they might lose that prejudice.

(*For the record, I've owned a whole pile of Columbia River liner-lock knives: Navajo, Crawford/Kasper, Ryan Model Seven, assorted Carson M16s, etc.; I've sent back one or two that didn't lock up as nice as I'd like, but of the ones I've kept, I've had ZERO lock problems. This is despite some pretty hard use, maybe not Cliff Stamp-style, but my CRKTs are my favorite beat-the-crap-out-of-them-and-not-worry-too-much outdoors knives.)
 
Ascoe posted

They can't be operated left handedly

They don't wear well at all

They can get stuck and be painful to force unlocked.

They cause blade play

You can't fwing them open and closed at a whim like you can an axis lock, you have to put your finger in the way of the blade.

I have 4 Kershaw 1416 XXL Starkey Ridge knives an 2 Kershaw 1415 Starkey Ridge knives. They are liner locks. I use them left-handed every day, I have been using them for years and they wear extremely well, I have never got one stuck, and none of them have any blade play..
I have been extremely happy with them. Quality construction is what is key for liner locks, and the Kershaws have that in spades.
 
In my experience, it's not a prejudice, but a real phenomena. The problem with many, not all, liner locks is reliability over time. They can get loose and need adjustment and sometimes replacement. I've had this happen with spyderco, benchmade and customs. I have not had this happen as readily or often with a lockback or slipjoint. I have no experience with axis.
 
IMHO, Here's the problem with liner-locks:

As others have said, it's not easy to get the geometry just right for the lock to work.
And then, over time, the geometry changes due to wear and tear and loose pivot screws. This can compromise the lock.

Another problem is the mechanism for holding the blade closed inside the handle.
Usually it's just a ball-detent and a small amount of pressure from the liner-lock.
Of all the knife lock designs available, the liner-lock is the one most likely yo open inside your pocket.

Here's another way to look at the situation:
Michael Walker designed the MODERN liner-lock (the one used on most knives today).
Mr. Walker (and Mr. Lake) also felt the need to design a back-up safety for the liner-lock.
It's called L.A.W.K.S
Now, if the designer of the modern liner-lock himself felt that it needed a back-up safety--what does that tell you?

And when you consider that there are better and more reliable locks easily available, why choose a liner-lock?

Good luck,
Allen.
 
allenC makes a good point about the detent ball that holds the blade closed. I generally like liner locks but have had a few that I have found to have a problem in this area.

Tom
 
I've never had problems with liner lock folders. Maybe that's because I don't buy junk? You know... CRKT, Gerber, S&W, etc.:D
 
Liner locks are very problematic. Before anyone says that it's because it's a predjudice against the format, let me say it's also my personal favorite. I love linerlocks, but they're also an accident waiting to happen in many cases. It's almost impossible to determine whether it will fail or not when you first get the knife.

The linerlock has about a dozen different ways to "fail" without the lock breaking or being comprimised with forign material. Microtech's old socom linerlocks had a consistent problem with failing on a spine tap, and not a hard one, you could tap the blade against your palm with moderate force and the blade would fold up, about 3 times, and then never fail again(personal experience here). My 800 afck's liner is fairly well worn in, and moves about 3/4 of the way across the tang. That's fine, except that it also had a tendency to slip all the way to the other side when closing pressure was applied, it never failed, but it doesnt exactly inspire confidence. That problem was eventually fixed by tweaking the torque on all the screws, took an hour or so but now it seems to be fine. As others have mentioned, there's also torqueing forces (sometimes unexpected ones or when you manage to get the blade stuck when cutting and try to remove it), having your hand disengage the lock while cutting(easy to tell when it's new, usually), improper interface angles, loose pivot, etc.

Now I generally don't tend towards liners unless it's a design well known for its reliability over time (spyderco military, a few custom makers) or if it's a small gent's folder that really isn't susceptible to the above problems because it's not likely to be used carelessly or for heavy cutting tasks.
 
IMO, the reason liner locks have gained such popularity is not driven by the consumers. It's been driven by manufacturers because it's the easiest & cheapest lock to make. (I didn't say the easiest/cheapest lock to make right)

There are tons of examples in the real world where designs have been driven by forces other than consumer and this is another example.

Even a large amount of custom/high end pieces I have owned came with inferior liner locks, so buying quality ensures you of absolutely nothing. You almost need to take liner locks on a case by case basis.

With that said, I choose not to buy liner locks for two reasons alone.

First, there are better locks out there and I'd rather support them to send a message to manufacturers. If liner locks start losing market share we'll start to see other locks being offered in higher quantity.

Second, My biggest pet peeve is to have the lock tighten under use. I hate when I have a nice frame or liner lock with beautiful engagement and as soon as I cut a piece of rope or a zip tie, the lock has slid all of the way across the tang. This comes from sloppy fitting stop pins and is very common.

I'm a huge fan of Benchmade axis locks, why they insist on still making liner/frame locks is beyond me. Can you imagine how rock solid the Skirmish would be with an axis lock? As far as I'm concerned they have the greatest locking mech made since the lockback and they're not leveraging it enough.
 
I don't put my knives through the same abuse that some members here do, but I do have a preference for lockbacks. I've had a few linerlocks close on me, I really don't like the brand new off the assembly line linerlocks, they are still very loose, the fact that the Spyderco Military is a liner lock has steered me away from wanting one, to my new conquest, a Police model. I would prefer lockbacks and axis locks, both are easy to close one handed if you are careful, and both just make me feel better when using them. BTW, I use crappy Chinese made fixed (hahahahahaha) knives to spread butter on my bagels, and I use a little Spyderco Ladybug that I grinded :( to open mail. I don't cut string, I cut paracord WITH MY TEETH :D!
 
Ascoe said:
They can't be operated left handedly
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Nonsense. You just have to pull, not push, the lock. If I can pull the other way on my bass-ackwards Victorinox One-Hand Trekker, then a lefty can pull a RH liner lock, too. I just grabbed a couple of liner locks I have handy (SPydero Lum CHinese, Benchmade 335 Big Spender) and tried 'em lefty, and had little trouble, and I'm right-handed. Using my middle finger around the handle to push the lock, and my index to start the blade closed. Peice of cake.


Ascoe said:
They don't wear well at all
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I don't get this one, either. Liner is steel or titanium, blade tang is steel. Both hardened. Seems to me it should wear no faster than a framelock made from titanium; in fact, some of those have wear problems because the frame isn't hardened. Again, a cheap liner lock will have problems, but a well-made one won't. You seem to be judging liner locks based on some really crappy implementations!!


Ascoe said:
They can get stuck and be painful to force unlocked.
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This, too, comes down to quality. If the blade tang is properly angled or radiused, the liner won't get stuck. That said, I have a few that stick a bit when I flick 'em open forcefully; someone here gave me some advice, and I scribbled on the tang with a lead pencil. Voila, no more problem. But that was on cheaper knives (a Kershaw and a CRKT most recently); I have some Benchmades with liner locks, too, and have never had a sticking problem with any of those.

Ascoe said:
They cause blade play
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Again, not if they're done right. Hell, to get vertical blade play even on a cheap liner lock, the lock would have to wear enough to lose contact with the blade tang. See above, unless the blade is stamped "CHINA", it's pretty unlikely.


Ascoe said:
You can't fwing them open and closed at a whim like you can an axis lock, you have to put your finger in the way of the blade.
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I dunno what knives you tried ths with, but I have no problems fwinging (love that word!) open any of my liner locks. You just have to overcome a bit of detent, which any good knife will have. That detent is generally in the form of a small recess in the tang, and a ball bearing installed into the liner, which also minimizes friction of the liner on the tang. Again, what sort of cheap liner locks have you been looking at?? :eek:


Ascoe said:
They remind me of sloppy chinese copies that most collectors don't waste time on.
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Ah HAH!! You just proved my point: you dislike liner locks not because of their actual attributes on good knives, but because they're used on crap knives.

Thank you. :D


Ascoe said:
To argue in the other direction.. a lot of custom knives are liner locks. Personally I don't care for them or Integral locks. I'll take a lockback, axis, or balisong anyday.
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Alright, you have a preference for other locks. Fair enough. But your personal preference doesn't necessarily mean that liner locks are bad, though, or that someone else might not like them just fine.

Ascoe said:
I've never seen a liner lock knife that I liked. The only ones I own are 10 dollar swap meet specials, because for 10 bucks you don't feel so bad
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Mystery solved.

If you're judging knives based on "10 dollar swap meet specials", it's amazing you even like knives in general, much less liner lock knives. Those things are embarassingly bad. :barf:

For the record, I'm not picking on you, you just happened to post up all the points that liner lock haters usually roll out. Responding to you was the easiest way to address them all! ;)
 
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