What is all this I keep reading about Liner Locks being junk?

Gryffin said:
"Wow, that new Slash-o-Magic 7000 sure looks sweet!! S30V blade, perfect ergonomics, Unobtainium inlays, single-molecule convex edge, only $99.99... too bad it's a liner lock, guess I won't be buying it." ;)
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Unobtanium Inlays would kick ass.

We need to relabel one of those HK's as an Oakley knife and put it some unobtanium. :D
 
BM 690- In the shop now for liner lock slipping. Never seen hard use

Spyderco Lum Chinese- In shop now for liner lock slipping badly. Never seen much use at all.

Camillus CUDA- In the trash after liner lock failing (once before and once after factory repair).

BM 814- 1 year of constant hard use with no problems.

Emerson SOCFK- 4 years of extreme abuse with no problems

The bottom line is that Liner locks are a gamble. Ya takes ya chances.
 
jonshoup said:
The bottom line is that Liner locks are a gamble. Ya takes ya chances.
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Well.... I'm not a Gamblin' man :D

I'll stick with what I know will always work. Lock Back, and Axis Lock :)

Cheers,
Fisher of Men
 
Like it or not I think we are pretty much stuck with liner locks. How many custom makers use something other than a liner lock (or frame lock, which for purposes of this discussion we can count in the same category)?

The problem is that a liner lock is:
1. Cheaper to make​
2. Easier to make​
3. Not proprietary​

With those things in its favor it is easy to see why most custom knives use some osrt of liner lock, and also why many manufacturers use them. Liner locks are also very simple, in terms of parts involved. If I want to take my knife apart to clean, or for any other reason, a liner lock has a very small number of intricate parts as compared to the Axis lock. It also has a lower number of small parts that can fail. In a liner lock the parts that can wear and fail are the lock bar itself, the stop pin, and the pivot. A good quality knife will use a hardened pivot and stop pin, pretty much eliminating them as points of failure. So the last weakest link here is the lock bar which is naturally prone to wear in use. In an Axis lock there are omega springs that can, and have broken in addition to the parts in a liner lock. I tend to prefer less small intricate parts that can break on me, and thus like liner locks.

To me ultimately why I like the liner lock is because of the number of choices it allows me. If I were to say that a liner lock is impossible to make into a safe lock I would limit my choice immensly. I would forever be limited to buying BM or Spyderco knives. I have had three liner locks fail on me, an Emerson Commander, a Camillus EDC(ok a frame lock), and a CRKT knife. I will admit to have been abusing the EDC when it failed, hammering the blade thorugh a thick acrylic abuse enough for you? The Commander was I believe an example of a bad execution as I had hardly used the knife, and the same goes for the CRKT Ryan. That is out of probably over a dozen liner lock and frame lock knives that I have and continue to use everyday. I use my knives hard, and even abuse them at times if necessary. I still trust my fingers to a liner lock, AFTER I have checked it out and it seems secure to me.

BTW I have nothing against any other type of lock either. I just have come to prefer liner locks. Hmm, think I need a BM 806D2 now... :D
 
ayzianboy said:
i've had to send back my CS ti-lite 3 times now for blade play issues, all due to problems with the liner lock.

i've had a liner lock fail on me as well.


in general, i prefer axis or framelock. i'll deal with spyderco lockbacks. i hate liners simply because they're not worth the hassle and often aren't much cheaper than other knives with the same contruction but better locks.
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Hold off on judgement until you get to try out that RRF. Keep in mind I really beat the cr@p out of that thing before passing it on. The lock is still just as secure as the day I bought it, and all I ever needed to do was tighten up the pivot pin a fraction of a turn. If you can use that knife and still say that you hate liner/frame locks then I guess you will never change your mind.


BTW, THANKS A LOT GUYS! I went ahead and ordered a BM 806D2 from New Grahm right after I finished my last post. I am going to give the axis lock a second shot. I had a mini-Grip but didn't really care for the FRN scales.
 
cpirtle said:
So, why not try to expound on the virtues of liner locks, and rather than defend the negatives - tell us the positives.
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I have and used CRKT point guard for 3 years.
I can open and close it easily with my left, although I am right handed. I use my left thumb to pull back the lock and close with index finger. Similarly using right hand, thumb to push the lock and close with index finger.
I spine whack it without the LAWKS, it worked fine. It also passed all other test suggested by Joe Talmadge (on the FAQ page here).
Contrary to popular believe, I think a frame lock will have problem of the hand disengaging the lock during twisting the handle, because the finger will apply the force directly to the lock bar. A liner lock (if recessed) like on the Point Guard, will be less likely to disengage, because the hand/finger will apply pressure on the handle scale instead of the lock.

Besides, a liner lock would allow a slimmer handle compared to a lockback, another locking method not proprietary. It is unfortunate that balisong design (nonproprietary also) is mostly considered switchblade. Otherwise we have solved the locking mechanism long time ago ... Nothing is as strong as a well made balisong, IMHO.

Just my 2 cents.

I specifically asked Spark to help inspecting the knife before shipping, cause it will travel with my friend (he was visiting US) all the way thousands of miles to me.
 
Chris "Anagarika" said:
It is unfortunate that balisong design (nonproprietary also) is mostly considered switchblade. Otherwise we have solved the locking mechanism long time ago ... Nothing is as strong as a well made balisong, ...
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There are so many lock types, and variants of most of these. But the balisong and the slipjoint, with perhaps the lockback, still have the tremendous advantage of near-irreduceable simplicity. There's just not much to go wrong and hardly anywhere for dirt to jam. A balisong practically cleans itself both opening and closing, and doesn't even need a latch except for convenience when laying it down.
 
I have all of the lock types being discussed here.

I have liners that are strong and durable, which I trust.(Spydies) Others that I'm not so trustful of(Kershaws, Benchmades, Beretta)

Lockbacks, and axis locks, all of which I trust w/o hesitation,

One lockback, a Buck 112 in micarta, I've had and used since around 1970.....still as tight and solid as the day I bought it.


One point to be made about the liner/frame lock issues and their issues of durability and reliability. As long as the consumer keeps buying them, the manufacturers will keep supplying them.

This topic will likely be discussed for many years to come.


Thomas Zinn
 
am i the only one on this board who has reservations about the axis lock? it seems like something that could disengage by your own hand, since the release is right on the face of the handle. also, can anyone link me to non-BM axis lock testing? thanks much!
 
With all of the ill-will that some people have had for the Axis lock and Benchmade in general, trust me it's been tested.

There was some scuttlebutt a year or two ago about the thumb being able to unlock the knife on a very specific self defense stabbing motion but I don't believe it was ever substantiated.

It’s gotten to the point where there is so little negative feedback about the Axis that the Anti-Axis crowd pretty much just complains about the spring breaking and not being able to “service” the lock themselves and have given up on the lock failing all together.

I've never seen any valid independent study of the Axis lock to point you to.

Why not buy one and try to find a way to make the lock fail? You may just become a believer. Even if you break a spring the lock still works..
 
cpirtle said:
With all of the ill-will that some people have had for the Axis lock and Benchmade in general, trust me it's been tested.

There was some scuttlebutt a year or two ago about the thumb being able to unlock the knife on a very specific self defense stabbing motion but I don't believe it was ever substantiated.

It’s gotten to the point where there is so little negative feedback about the Axis that the Anti-Axis crowd pretty much just complains about the spring breaking and not being able to “service” the lock themselves and have given up on the lock failing all together.

I've never seen any valid independent study of the Axis lock to point you to.

Why not buy one and try to find a way to make the lock fail? You may just become a believer. Even if you break a spring the lock still works..
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That Xterra looks so much better. I thought I was looking in the mirror every time I saw your avatar :D.
 
We should end this Axis Lock hate once and for all... have a few people pitch in $11 each and mail an 806D2 to Cliff Stamp.

I'm really curious how it would hold up to ridiculous abuse.
 
Garlic, any mechanical lock is subject to release depending on each user's grip. The axis is probably least prone of all the locks I know of to such a thing, as you would have to be gripping in an odd fashion and also pulling back on the handle at the same time to risk disengagement. In my grips my thumb/hand is never in contact with the lock. This is in regards to using the knife in utility roles, for SD purposes this could be different, and I would probably want a Chinook/Manix level midlock, with a boye detent in order to eliminate any chance of accidentaly disengagement.
 
There is no lock that can't fail! I've carried a Sebenza in the field for over 10 years, as a "Back-up" for small simple jobs it works great. As a 26 year Marine Corps Infantryman I wouldn't rely on ANY folding knife with or without a lock for hard use. IMHO there is NO hard use dependable folder. Simply put, if it can release it's an accident waiting to happen!
 
cpirtle said:
With all of the ill-will that some people have had for the Axis lock and Benchmade in general, trust me it's been tested.

There was some scuttlebutt a year or two ago about the thumb being able to unlock the knife on a very specific self defense stabbing motion but I don't believe it was ever substantiated.

depends on what ya mean by substantiated,that was by chris carraci the guy who designed the AFCK for BM, ex SEAL/etc, used to have a forum on bladeforums, dont remember what happened to him, too busy IIRC to fool with it, he claimed that in a fight the button could be accidently moved releasing the lock, i have looked at my axis lock knives and though i dont think its likely, i guess it COULD happen, he said the std AFCK was a better combat knife vs the axis AFCK, this was a few yrs ago he might have changed his mind, or maybe not.
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SIFU1A said:
chris carraci the guy who designed the AFCK for BM, ex SEAL/etc, used to have a forum on bladeforums, dont remember what happened to him, too busy IIRC to fool with it, he claimed that in a fight the button could be accidently moved releasing the lock.
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so are you saying that the guy who designed the original AFCK isn't crazy about the axis lock either (at least for SD)? that's interesting. well, it's nice to know that i'm not the lone ranger.
 
Garlic said:
so are you saying that the guy who designed the original AFCK isn't crazy about the axis lock either (at least for SD)? that's interesting. well, it's nice to know that i'm not the lone ranger.
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Keep in mind Caracci caught a lot of flack for that, and rightfully so, because he'd never actually used an axis lock, just picked one up. So he'd complained about the axis lock based on theoretical problems that don't show up in real life, but likes the liner lock, which has loads of problems in real life but seems theoretically sound. Kinda bass-ackwards to me, but I'm not a qualified expert.

Not that I'm saying the axis is above criticism, just that the Caracci example isn't necessarily strong backup.
 
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