What is all this I keep reading about Liner Locks being junk?

[Ascoe]

Thanks for dissecting my post, I was wondering why everyone was letting it slide.

The other liner lock I have tried was a CRKT M-16, which was also crap and promptly returned.

The MAIN reason is, why buy a linerlock when I can buy a Spyderco Lockback or a Benchmade Axis for the same price?

I still don't trust them :]

 

[Gryffin]

Now, if the designer of the modern liner-lock himself felt that it needed a back-up safety--what does that tell you?

It tells me that Walker acknowldges that making a safe liner lock is difficult on mass-market knives (no argument there), and that he felt there was an easy solution to make even a cheap, badly-made liner lock as "safe as houses." Doesn't tell me that he thought his own liner lock was inherently unsafe; if so I doubt he would've used it on his own custom knives. Funny, I've never seen a LAWKS on any of Walker's own custom knives...

Another way to look at this: if liner locks were inherently unsafe, do you really think American knifemakers like Spyderco, Benchmade, Emerson, Kershaw, Gerber, Buck, CRKT et. al. would risk using it on their knives, in today's litigious society?? Sure, a few bad ones get out, and any lock has it's limits; but to paint all liner locks as intrinsically hazardous is ridiculous. Could a liner lock be made more inherently safe? Sure. That's what LAWKS does.

(Aside: The Chinese manufacturers don't shive a git, they're in China, far outside the reach from our civil court system. Wonder how long, though, until someone loses a finger to one of those POS's and sues the bejeezus out of one of their importers? Then, if history is any guide, the Gummint will try to impose safety standards on imported knives, and instead end up banning anything more threatening than a pair of nail clippers... :barf: )

And when you consider that there are better and more reliable locks easily available, why choose a liner-lock?

Well, not every lock is available on every knife design. Some knives that have other features a buyer might want are only available with a liner lock. It's a value judgement.

That's like saying, any knife that has a blade of ATS-34 and 152CM is crap. Why buy one, when there knives out there that use S30V or D2 or INFI? To follow that reasoning, don't buy a Buck or a Spyderco, they must be crap, too, along with most of the Benchmade line, as well as the majority of custom knives out there!

The lock is just one feature of a knife; there's also the blade material, grind and shape, the handle ergonomics, the overall workmanship, the manufacturer's support, the style or appearance...

To rule out a knife only because it has a liner lock, with no conderation for any other qualities it might provide, or for how well the liner lock is implemented, is, to me, irrational.

And to get back to the original post: to impose that irrational prejudice on newbies on a forum like this is irresponsible, and an insult to the designers and manufacturers who produce superb knives that happen to use liner locks!

 

[Gryffin]

:footinmou

 

[victus1]

..........

 

[cpirtle]

Are there any cases where a liner lock with a LAWKS type of safety has failed in actual usage?
If the safety is not prone to failure then all liner locks should have them. It's up to the user to decide whether they wish to activate the safety or not.

Sure, they fail if you don't use it, which will probably be the time you need to use it the most.

LAWKS is stupid, make a lock properly and you don't need it.

It's basically an excuse to do a half a**ed job making a liner lock.

 

[ErikD]

Personally I like liner locks, in fact most of my knives are liner locks or frame locks. I think that they get a bad name because it is so hard to get them right. When done correctly a liner lock is a thing of beauty, but when done wrong it is just junk. The problem is that even reputable compnaies with expensive knives sometimes get it wrong. So saying stay away from $10 chepaies doesn't necessarily mean you are safe.

Also frame locks seem to get exempt from these problems because the lock is actually forced closed as you put weird stresses on the knife. With a liner lock the lock bar is more free to slip around.

 

[cpirtle]

Another way to look at this: if liner locks were inherently unsafe, do you really think American knifemakers like Spyderco, Benchmade, Emerson, Kershaw, Gerber, Buck, CRKT et. al. would risk using it on their knives, in today's litigious society?? Sure, a few bad ones get out, and any lock has it's limits; but to paint all liner locks as intrinsically hazardous is ridiculous. Could a liner lock be made more inherently safe? Sure. That's what LAWKS does.

IMO, the reason liner locks have gained such popularity is not driven by the consumers. It's been driven by manufacturers because it's the easiest & cheapest lock to make. (I didn't say the easiest/cheapest lock to make right)

In all of the replies you've made the only reason I have heard you give as to why someone should buy a liner lock is if they like the other design features, which is a valid point.

Why not try to get the manufacturers to offer that design in a different locking mechanism? They don't want to because LL's can be made much cheaper.

Very very few designs I have seen are so outside the box that they would not work with another type of locking mechanism.

So, why not try to expound on the virtues of liner locks, and rather than defend the negatives - tell us the positives.

 

[Fisher of Men]

Well,

I gotta say after reading all of this I think I will be buying an Axis lock Benchmade with a Tanto Blade

Thanks folks.
Fisher of Men

 

[rover]

I've got a few buddies oversees that seem to think the CRKT liner lock works just fine. I don't think they're all that great but men better than myself were very happy to have received them. And I can guarantee you they are being put to hard use.

If its a well executed design then great. My definition of a well executed design is one that works for you.

Oh, and start thinking and stop comparing apples and oranges (i.e. the axis lock to custom liner locks). I don't know anybody who would pick a Ritter Grip over a Terzuola. The Terzuola's are a little different than the liner locks from China.

 

[Gryffin]

Why not try to get the manufacturers to offer that design in a different locking mechanism? They don't want to because LL's can be made much cheaper.

True, a liner lock is a cheap solution. But I think there's more to the problem.

What alternatives are out there, really?

Frame lock: Stronger, but just as hard to do right, if not moreso. Same fit and wear issues (sometimes worse), not really well suited to mass production. From a design standpoint, it limits your handle design to solid slabs of metal; those thick slabs of metal also tend to be expensive compared to thin sheet stock and scales.

Lockback: Spyderco has shown that they can be even stronger than a liner lock. Still, a lockback requires an extra moving part, a couple extra pins, and some very tight tolerances to do right. And if it's not done right, the result is just as bad as a bad liner lock. I've seen some truly appalling lockbacks from China and Pakistan; crap is still crap, no matter what lock.

Axis: Sure, it's the best lock out there, but it also belongs exclusivey to Benchmade. Cold Steel, Schrade and SOG have tried to come up with similar designs that don't infringe Benchmade's patents, but none are as good. (Schrade & SOG moved the locking bar to the top of the knife, Cold Steel uses a channel in the tang rather than the edge of the tang; both take up a lot of space, making for bulky knives. No way any of these alternative designes could be used in anything as svelte as, say, a Benchmade 770, or even a 710.) All three share enough features with the Axis that they might infringe BM's patents; so long as they only use them on a few models, Benchmade is less likely to unleash the attorneys, but if they were used more widely, Les might change his mind. Oh, and the Axis lock isn't easy or cheap to produce; Benchmade even scrapped their planned improved version (BM 780), because even they couldn't manufacture them to their own high standards.

Rolling Lock: Also belongs to Les; see above. SOG has one that's similar, but with the lock bar up top, used on the Flash series; seems to work well, I'm surprised they haven't used it more... again, see above about attack-lawyers.

Compression Lock: Ditto, but subsitute "Spyderco" for "Benchmade". Again, a brilliant solution, but proprietary.

Now, there's nothing to prevent, say, CRKT from licencing the Axis lock. However, they're after the mid- to low-end of the wider market, and the licensing fees would make their product less cost-competitive, especially versus the cheap knock-offs. It's a business decision: while the Axis would be a better lock, a decent liner lock with LAWKS is cheaper; the cost/benefit of the Axis loses badly.

Like everything else in business, it all comes down to money. Spyderco and Benchmade and their ilk have made the decision to make more money per knife off fewer high-quality knives, despite the fact that their market oppotunity is limited. CRKT and Gerber and their ilk have decided to make "good enough" knives, make less per knife, but make more money by selling more of them to a bigger market that doesn't appreciate things like 154CM steel or Axis locks.

(What CRKT and Gerber don't seem to realize is that they're now competing with the Chinese knock-offs, who don't have to worry about wages or legal liability or safety or any of that; hence, they cannot win. Look for Frost to buy out CRKT about five years from now, just like they did to Schrade.)

 

[Gryffin]

So, why not try to expound on the virtues of liner locks, and rather than defend the negatives - tell us the positives.

Whoops, I meant to get to that part in my previous post...

Positives? Sure: It's simple to operate, available in a wide array of designs from a wide range of manufacturers, and yes, cheap to manufacture. ANd most importantly, as long as it's manufactured correctly, it's the safest locking mechanism available on mid- to low-price folding knives.

Not everyone can afford (or justify to the wife ) spending $100 on a Benchmade Axis knife. If they want a decent lock on a knife in their price range, a good liner lock is hard to beat.

It's great that we can afford to buy a frame lock or Axis lock or Compression lock on a knife that otherwise meets our needs. But for the other 90+% of the knife-buying public, a well-made liner lock is a perfectly good, affordable solution. Certainly better than having them buy those crappy, unsafe knock-offs, regardless of locking mechanism, isn't it?

Is that settling for an inferior lock? Maybe, if the better lock is in your price range. But as I posted earlier, a well-made liner lock isn't inferior, it is just as strong and safe as any other, if done correctly. That's been my point all along: it's wrong to judge all liner lock knives based on the ones that are inarguably garbage. That's all, really.

If you don't like them, fine; but don't tell folks looking for buying advice that all liner lock knives are bad and dangerous and a waste of their hard-earned money, because that's just not true. Instead, try explaining what makes for a good liner lock, and let them make an informed decision.

 

[silenthunterstudios]

CPirtle, find another avatar, that one's making me sick !

 

[cpirtle]

CPirtle, find another avatar, that one's making me sick !

You don't like Fat Bastard? Oh well, I'll take it into consideration

If you don't like them, fine; but don't tell folks looking for buying advice that all liner lock knives are bad and dangerous and a waste of their hard-earned money, because that's just not true. Instead, try explaining what makes for a good liner lock, and let them make an informed decision.

Hope you weren't directing this part at me, I never said any of those things. Just that In My Opinion there are better options.

None of my comments have been directed to junk liner locks as I have never owned one. I have owned well over a hundred custom & high end knives and my experience is based on that.

But as I posted earlier, a well-made liner lock isn't inferior, it is just as strong and safe as any other, if done correctly.

This is as much of an blatent stereo type as what your complaining people do against liner locks. Even when done correctly a liner lock is not as strong as some other locks. Spyderco's own lock stregth tests tell this in published testing data. Their liner locks are the weakest locks in the line.

Oh, and start thinking and stop comparing apples and oranges (i.e. the axis lock to custom liner locks). I don't know anybody who would pick a Ritter Grip over a Terzuola. The Terzuola's are a little different than the liner locks from China.

If you are judging a knife based only on lock stregth, then you're wrong. Taking everything else about the knife into consideration you're absolutely right.

Bob Terzoula's piece of .08 titanium is no stronger than the same piece put into an Emerson or Benchmade, if both are done properly than on this issue alone both are identical.

Making the argument that an 806d2 is as a nice as a Terzoula is a fools game, of course the Terz is a nicer knife. But there is little doubt that the 806 has a stronger lock.


With all of this said, I still have nothing against a well made liner lock. My reasons for not buying them are stated in my first post and are purely personal choices.

But facts are facts, hand pick the best linerlock you can find and I can make the lock fail on it before any "off the shelf" Spyderco Chinook, Benchmade Axis or another good lockback.

 

[cpirtle]

SHS, I fixed my Avatar for you...

 

[Joe Talmadge]

Is that settling for an inferior lock? Maybe, if the better lock is in your price range. But as I posted earlier, a well-made liner lock isn't inferior, it is just as strong and safe as any other, if done correctly. That's been my point all along: it's wrong to judge all liner lock knives based on the ones that are inarguably garbage. That's all, really.

Gryffin,

Well-argued, but the above paragraph captures a key disagreement. The view of many of us is that liner locks are inherently difficult to consistently make reliable, regardless of who is making them. While I agree that some makers and manufacturers are better than others, I (and many others) do not agree that anyone really has this problem licked. Even high-$$$ production and custom knives (and yes, those of some of the reknowned makers mentioned in this thread) can show problems at an alarming rate.

In short, if even the best of the best have trouble making the liner lock up to to the reliability of a middle-of-the-road lockback, then it's a reasonable conclusion is that the problem is with the design (and the tight geometries it requires), and not just a matter of "shabby manufacturer" versus "great manufacturer".

I agree that a liner lock, if "done correctly" (as you state) can be strong and reliable. I don't agree that even the best at making liner locks can do this at an acceptably consistent rate. My vote: avoid linerlocks for hard use, regardless of manufacturer, these days there are loads and loads of other choices.

Joe

 

[zinn1348]

CPirtle, find another avatar, that one's making me sick !

Lord yes.......reminds me of someone, can't quite think of who, when I look in the mirror.


Thomas Zinn

 

[Gryffin]

You don't like Fat Bastard? Oh well, I'll take it into consideration

AAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!! Make it go away!!! :barf:

Hope you weren't directing this part at me, I never said any of those things.

Not directed at you explicitly; but I have seen an awful lot of folks do so. Bet you have, too: "Wow, that new Slash-o-Magic 7000 sure looks sweet!! S30V blade, perfect ergonomics, Unobtainium inlays, single-molecule convex edge, only $99.99... too bad it's a liner lock, guess I won't be buying it."

None of my comments have been directed to junk liner locks as I have never owned one.

Damn, you're one lucky man! I figgered pretty much all of us here had bought at least one, before we knew better!!

Even when done correctly a liner lock is not as strong as some other locks. Spyderco's own lock stregth tests tell this in published testing data. Their liner locks are the weakest locks in the line.

I've only seen a few specific Spyderco tests, but I'll take your word for it.

However, how many users are gonna need to clamp a blade in a vice and hang an engine block off the end of the handle? Sorry, but if you're abusing a folding knife bad enough to bust a decent liner lock, you're pretty much flirting with disaster anyway.

If you are judging a knife based only on lock stregth, then you're wrong. Taking everything else about the knife into consideration you're absolutely right.

Can't argue there.

 

[Gryffin]

I agree that a liner lock, if "done correctly" (as you state) can be strong and reliable.

Cool.

I don't agree that even the best at making liner locks can do this at an acceptably consistent rate.

I can see your point. Maybe I've just been lucky (THAT would be a first), but my experience with a whole buncha liner locks to date has been pretty positive. Like Pirtle said, best thing to do is check 'em out before you buy. And if you can't check 'em first, check 'em when you get 'em, and don't be shy about sending 'em back if you don't like what you see. Of course, that's good advice for any knife, regardless of lock, manufacturer, or what-have-you.

My vote: avoid linerlocks for hard use, regardless of manufacturer...

I can agree to disagree with you here...

...these days there are loads and loads of other choices.

...and agree with you here!!

 

[cpirtle]

Truth be known, I rarely shop for anything with a lock these days. Don't need them anyway.

It's like a gun, never trust a mechanical safety on a gun, if it's something you would not do with the safety on than don't do it with the safety off etc....

I usually carry a Kahr with no safety and a folding knife with no lock

 

[ayz]

i've had to send back my CS ti-lite 3 times now for blade play issues, all due to problems with the liner lock.

i've had a liner lock fail on me as well.


in general, i prefer axis or framelock. i'll deal with spyderco lockbacks. i hate liners simply because they're not worth the hassle and often aren't much cheaper than other knives with the same contruction but better locks.